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re-Slope System

Posted by: user440021 | Sat 17th Dec 2011 07:49 | Last Reply

Hi  I read a discusion early about the UK - Us System of Slope, In Australia we are in the process of starting the US system. We started with the best 10 out of 20 but it was found that the higher handicapper was favored so it has now changed to the best 8 out of 20 and x by 0.93 which gives the shorter handicapper a more even chance. It is now working very well. It is all about averages.


Last edit : Sat 17th Dec 2011 10:41
re: re-Slope System
user410273
Reply : Sat 17th Dec 2011 09:49

Whatever the system, as long as it gives the players the chance to compete equitably with each other and the course then great. CONGU, the English handicapping body, have produced enough stats to show that the system works reasonably well between golfers. However, it doesn't always translate well between courses of differing severity, i.e. someone who has a 15 h'cap gained at a relatively easy course may well struggle when they visit the likes of Carnoustie.

re: re-Slope System
user52922
Reply : Sat 17th Dec 2011 11:49

My club produces stats each week that shows that CONGU is a farce. I laughed at your Carnoustie comment, Brian, as the only time I played there I shot 68.

re: re-Slope System
user410273
Reply : Sat 17th Dec 2011 13:30

John, I think CONGU works well at divisional level but falls down when Cat 1's have to compete in open comps with other Catagories. How many times do we see that a Cat 1 would have to shoot a course record to win a comp?

I found Carnoustie pretty easy apart from the 17th. I 3 putted the 16th, I hit driver into the wind to the green then relaxed. Then stood on the 17th and didn't have a clue where to hit it safely.............. so I put it out of bounds. I finished 3 over gross, and that was the day I realised my lad was going to be very good. He beat me gross for the first time, comfortably.

But this highlights where low handicap players don't suffer on hard courses. Their accuracy allows them to navigate around tough courses whereas the higher handicappers find that penal rough or extra bunkers. This is where a slope rating would be of most benefit.

re: re-Slope System
user202037 [FORUM MODERATOR]
Reply : Sat 17th Dec 2011 13:56

What gets me about the CONGU system is the fact Cat1 Hcp's are effected by the CSS which uses scores from Cat3 to work it out. It is a farce that in an Open Comp you can win Best Gross and still get 0.1 back.

TheLyth

re: re-Slope System
user355541
Reply : Sat 17th Dec 2011 14:32

John

 

I would be interested to have the details of the stats your club produces every week.

re: re-Slope System
user355541
Reply : Sat 17th Dec 2011 14:34

David

 

The point is that the handicap system relates to the score you achieve - not whether you won a competition or not.

re: re-Slope System
user52922
Reply : Sat 17th Dec 2011 14:44

Brian, Lyth, whilst I can sympathise with what you are both saying, in reality you have it relatively easy to maintain your low handicaps with the decimal system, because as you well know, in the old days, one shot over the buffer zone moved you a whole number.

This is why there is a dearth of young talent playing off very low handicaps who are never going to make it as the system does not reward consistency but the occasional flash in the pan.

I asumed the SSS was designed to separate the differences in difficulty between courses, but in reality it does not work for the simple reason that handicaps are never adjusted up or down when one plays at a harder or easier course.

This comes to light when one plays in events like the GTour.

re: re-Slope System
user52922
Reply : Sat 17th Dec 2011 14:46

James, my response was rather toungue in cheek as I was relating to the number of competitions we have and the vast difference between the winner and the man who came last, usually a 20 shot difference. Please tell me how this equates to a correct handicapping system.

re: re-Slope System
user355541
Reply : Sat 17th Dec 2011 15:08

Point taken, John, but the system does not expect that you will play at or near to your handicap every time you enter a competition - and the variability increases with players in higher handicap categories. You mention a 20 shot difference - I can personally often manage to be 20 shots different on a Friday to my score achieved 3 days previously. Handicaps are designed to allow players of vastly different abilities to compete, but it would not be desirable for all competitors to come in with identical nett scores. 

re: re-Slope System
user202037 [FORUM MODERATOR]
Reply : Sat 17th Dec 2011 15:40

James,

You don't seem to have got what I was getting at.

On a course with a SSS 69 Par 70 where I was a member the CSS most weeks was 68 because of the high number of Cat3 handicappers in that club. Many times a low Hcp has shot Best Gross (as you would expect) and got 0.1 back. It got to a point where nearly all the Cat1 guys refused to play in the Comps and who could blame them when the average Nett Scores for Cats 1 & 2 some weeks was about 72 or 73, yet the CSS was produced at 68.

TheLyth

re: re-Slope System
user202037 [FORUM MODERATOR]
Reply : Sat 17th Dec 2011 15:43

John,

I thought it was Full Shots when pulled and no increase apart from the Annual Reviews. That made it easier to hold a false low hcp.

TheLyth

 

re: re-Slope System
user52922
Reply : Sat 17th Dec 2011 15:55

Not in the West Country, Lyth, outside the buffer meant you went up, simple as that.

I look at the low men at my club and I know that they are nowhere near the same standard as I was when I was a low man. Ou 1 handicapper won the club championship with 159 (80 +79) andf is still 1 handicap, it is a joke.

You were a professional Lyth and even you found out that being scratch means nothing, one still has to win amongst your peers.


Last edit : Sat 17th Dec 2011 15:57
re: re-Slope System
user52922
Reply : Sat 17th Dec 2011 16:05

Posted by James.

Handicaps are designed to allow players of vastly different abilities to compete, but it would not be desirable for all competitors to come in with identical nett scores.

I could agree with you if all participants did cross the line together or at least have a very narrow spread, but unfortunately this has not been my experience in the many years that  have played this game.

When I was scratch, I only played in Scratch competitions, the only handicap competition is used to support was the Grand Atlantic Trophy at Weston-Super-Mare, but that always balloted out at around 12 handicap and being over 36 holes gave the low men a chance.

To win any competition receiving a vast amount of shots, like I get at present, is not a victory at all and gives no pleasure at all to me.

Countback is another ridiculous idea to find a winner, the lowest handicap player should take it in the event of a tie as he has played the best golf.

re: re-Slope System
user202037 [FORUM MODERATOR]
Reply : Sat 17th Dec 2011 16:09

John,

Here in Yorkshire 'when I were a lad' there was no buffer zone, just SSS. The Competition Committee could adjust that because of conditions, or call it a non-qualifier. Mind you, I did turn Pro in 1973 so it was a long time ago.

TheLyth

re: re-Slope System
user410273
Reply : Sat 17th Dec 2011 16:28

Its an interesting point you make John about consistency not being rewarded. I consider this year to have been one of my better years yet I've picked up very little in the way of prizes and I've finished the year 0.2 higher than I started it. Since I started using this site to log scores I've beaten h'cap 11 out of 24 rounds but so many of them have been in the buffer zone. One in particular springs to mind in which I shot 2 under nett, on a very windy day, fully expecting CSS to rise yet it dropped 2 shots.

Over the course of the season I'm 2 under nett, yet on the verge of going back up to 6. I can play to 5 with my eyes closed but rarely shoot well under these days....

re: re-Slope System
user52922
Reply : Sat 17th Dec 2011 17:55

Lyth, turning pro must have been an exciting development in 1973, but, even then, the tour was nowhere near as strong as it is today and oif course you had the terrible expense of tryhing to enter into something that does not favour talent alone, one must either have sponsors or be self sufficient. Still an achievement nevertheless.

The mere fact that you have still maintained that high standard as the years have rolled by is something that I am envious of, as my game has deteriorated to a point where it cannot be remotely called golf.


Last edit : Sat 17th Dec 2011 17:58
re: re-Slope System
user52922
Reply : Sat 17th Dec 2011 18:01

Brian, I can sympathise with your situation in respect of the CSS making life difficult and not refelecting your true abilities. Your handicap movements are being decided by the higher handicap range, and we  all know that this ranget can produce silly scores.

re: re-Slope System
user52922
Reply : Sat 17th Dec 2011 18:06

Handicaps need urgent tightening up and the only way to do this fairly is to take the number of pars and birdies scored in a round and count every other hole as a bogey and that would produce a tight handicap and also make it fair for those of us who just cannot reach most holes in regulation figures.

Par is usually assessed in needing 1, 2 or 3 shots to reach a green and then 2 putts.

I am fed up of witnessing 18 handicappers making 7 pars and a birdie yet still not playing to their handicap.


Last edit : Sun 18th Dec 2011 17:58
re: re-Slope System
user38216
Reply : Sat 17th Dec 2011 19:42

John I agree with your last post 100%.  Its not unusual that I will make 9 pars and a couple of birdies in a round but blow up at some stage to ruin a medal card. Then in match play I will have no trouble taking out a much lower handicapper who will be naturally disappointed that I have hit the ball futher and better but also been given shots. I would be cut under this system but is it right. Until I can play 18 holes and score well over all of them surley I would have a handicap that suggests I am better than my ability?

 

re: re-Slope System
user52922
Reply : Sun 18th Dec 2011 18:00

Well, David, it used to be that your handicap was your best round under summer conditions and this meant tight handicaps. Monthly medals at my club were usually won by no better than 2 under par.

re: re-Slope System
user38216
Reply : Tue 20th Dec 2011 19:14

@ JP - my old club was the same, level par would sometimes be good enough to win a medal round when the course was set up fair. My new club is a different animal and silly low scores are posted but not many low handicappers. I will be addressing this in March when I leave!


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