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Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie

Posted by: user8 [FORUM MODERATOR] | Wed 8th Dec 2010 22:06 | Last Reply

After Lee Westwood's recent comments on Twitter, the PGATour website now have a poll online:

Rory or Rickie ?  poll half way down page currently 61% to Rory - http://www.pgatour.com/

 

Westwood's interview not that he needs to justify his public comments:

http://www.pgatour.com/video/r/audio/interviews/2010/12/08/xm_westwood.xm/index.html

re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
user26342
Reply : Thu 9th Dec 2010 16:02

"he cannot truly lay claim to being the best golfer in the world whilst he is still chasing his first major."

Current rankings which decide who is the best say he is No.1!! This despite the fact that he has hardly played & when he did played through injury. I hope he also wins the BBC Sports Personality of the Year.

I personally think he will win a major very soon. He's been 2nd a few times now & was only beat in the Masters by a very in form Mickleson.

I think he is perfectly entitled to his opinion about Rory vs Ricky & did not disrespect anyone.

Rory has had a fantastic start to his pro career, winning on both the European tour & the PGA tour & he should have got the vote ahead of Ricky.

re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
user26342
Reply : Thu 9th Dec 2010 16:32

Looks like Westwood isn't the only one.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/golf/9268148.stm

 

Where has Lee ever claimed to be the 'best in the world'??


Last edit : Thu 9th Dec 2010 16:37
re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
user26342
Reply : Thu 9th Dec 2010 17:09

How are we turning into bad losers??

We have more Europeans in the Top 10 in the world, we dominated the Majors & we regained the Ryder Cup??

To put the boot onto the other foot, how do you think Rory felt when he found out he hadn't won?? All his efforts have not been recognised.

It would be like giving the PGA player of the year award to someone other than Jim Furyk!

re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
user26342
Reply : Thu 9th Dec 2010 17:12

So your saying that Tiger Woods (who you believe to be the best in the world) has been an inspiration in previous Ryder Cups. Bearing in mind their last victory he wasn't even in the team!

re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
user26342
Reply : Fri 10th Dec 2010 10:21

I think what we have to consider here is that when Tiger dominated for all those years it was because most of the players thought he was invincible & almost gave him shots standing on the 1st tee.

However Tiger has shown he his human & that if you 'stick it to him' like McDowell did over the weekend then he can be beat.

So IF he gets back to his best, & I hope he does, then the other players will be more determined to beat an in form Tiger and there are a LOT more better players around now to do this (Westwood, Kaymer, Rory, Manassero etc).

I don't think Tiger will ever dominate like he has in previous years as he has let the other players catch him up & already overtake him.


Last edit : Fri 10th Dec 2010 10:22
re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
user115085
Reply : Fri 10th Dec 2010 11:04

I don't agree that Tiger is a good role model on the course. Shouting and dropping clubs after a bad (by his standards) shot time again is not what I want to see juniors or even seniors immitating.

re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
user26342
Reply : Fri 10th Dec 2010 11:32

I agree Chris,

Steve, can you think of a better role model than Tiger Woods?

Mark if you really believe this then you really are deluded!!

Lee Westwood is the best role model for golf. I have never seen him once curse or throw a club etc whilst on the course. His demeanour is superb.

Mark,

How you can say the new players are no better than Ernie & Vijay is astounding.  The European players of today are winning more at a younger age, Manassero for example is the youngest ever to win on tour. They have also won Majors. These players aren't even at their peak yet.

They are more hungry  for wins & more determined to be No.1.

I think these players realised that to catch tiger they needed to up all areas of their game which included fitness, diet etc. The fact that it is so close at the top shows that they have all closed the gap.

You can't just put Tigers fall down to swing changes as almost every player does this so it's not a valid excuse.

re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
user8 [FORUM MODERATOR]
Reply : Fri 10th Dec 2010 11:41

Kind of a weak article but if you stretched your imagination and read between the lines it kind of says that the PGA Tour can't pin all there hopes on the impact of Tiger Woods any more.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6B90CQ20101210

 

re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
user355139
Reply : Fri 10th Dec 2010 12:02

you seem to not dispute a lot of matters, I think it is about time you accepted that Tiger is a dying force in world golf, his recent defeat to Mcdowell has only served to show he is lost his 'aura' that he supposedly once had

re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
user202037 [FORUM MODERATOR]
Reply : Fri 10th Dec 2010 12:06

Facts can aid any side of a discussion. Lee Westwood sits today (10/12/2010) at the top of The World Rankings and Nicklaus holds the record of Major wins. Anyone can have an opinion, and that is their choice and not a Fact.

Fact is, Tiger has won 14 Majors 'so far', Jack won 19 in his whole career. Kaymer has won 1 and is at the start of his career. Who is to say how many anyone will win by the end of their career.

It could be argued that both Monty and Westwood could have a Major win by now if they knew the Facts before putting on the 72nd holes of Majors. Monty 3 putted when he thought he need to hole to tie at the US Open and Westwood 3 putted to miss the Play-Off at Turnberry.

To say that although Westwood sits a No1 means nothing is a strange one to me and using reference to Football adds to that. If the team winning the Premiership only got two points off a team finishing 12th that season, which is the 'best team'? Using some of the thoughts here, it could be suggested the team finishing 12th!

The FACT is, Westwood's record says that over the last two years he is the 'Best Golfer in the World'

TheLyth

re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
user53837
Reply : Fri 10th Dec 2010 12:24

Agree Lyth, you can only compete against what is around you at the time and based on this Westwood is the best golfer in the world at this time, FACT!

It's like the argument about who is the best EVER golfer, you can't really compare and if Woods ever breaks the 19 Majors then he can be said to have won the most Majors ever but you can't really say he is the best ever and compare against Nicklaus or any other golfer for that matter.

re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
user26342
Reply : Fri 10th Dec 2010 12:39

Mark,

I understood you were referring to him on the course which is why I made my comment.

As Chris said earlier, how many time do we see Tiger curse or throw a club or kick his bag after a bad shot?? Are you really telling me you want young kids to emulate this?

re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
user115085
Reply : Fri 10th Dec 2010 13:06

"Are you telling me no other golfer gets angry when they hit bad shots at crucial times?" - no but we see Tiger doing this on the first few days of comps and more frequently than anyone else. Just look at last weeks Chevron event where it became something of a feature of the SKy sports coverage.

re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
user26342
Reply : Fri 10th Dec 2010 13:13

Mark,

Where are you getting the quote that Westwood said "it was a disgrace"? Have you read his twitter??

You asked if there was a better role model than Tiger & I think that Lee is.

You talk about hard work, dedication and desire to win. Well what do you call it when Lee comes from being in the bottom 250th in the world to become the World No.1. So he has all that & he doesn't throw tantrums on the course.

No contest really.

re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
user355139
Reply : Fri 10th Dec 2010 13:29

Mark,

I feel your love for Tiger blinds you to the fact that he often lets himself down with his behaviour both on and of the course. Yes 'hard work, dedication, committment, passion for the game and desire to win' are admirable however are you trying to suggest that no other golfer has these qualities? The fact of the matter is they all do yet many of them unlike Tiger make themselves more accessible to the media and public alike, they have the ability to contain their emotions like true professionals should be able to in a sport like golf where good ettiquette is expected to be observed by all. Unfortunately for the game of golf Tiger feels he himself is bigger than the game!

Granted he once was an undeniable force in golf however over the last 24 months his stock has fallen along with his game and his ranking.

John & Steve,

I agree with both your arguments, Mark yours is based on IF's, Buts & Once was.

re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
user26342
Reply : Fri 10th Dec 2010 13:48

The only one I would question is "TV ratings are significantly higher when Woods is playing - FACT"

In the US this may be correct but I don't think our TV ratings are any higher? Me personally I hate watching the PGA coverage because it's so biased.

re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
user355139
Reply : Fri 10th Dec 2010 13:52

Mark,

I do not dislike Tiger and you shouldn't take it personally. I agree he has been incredible in the past but I feel it is your own ignorance towards other golfers on tour by giving Tiger credit for all of the above is the issue here, yourself, like Tiger, attribute all that is good in the game to Tiger, this couldn't be further from the truth. People didn't tune in to the Ryder Cup to see Tiger take up a bit part role, nor is the Race to Dubai prize pot anything to do with Tiger. Your commits are outlandish. No one can dispute his history, but this is a case of looking forward and not back.

re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
user355139
Reply : Fri 10th Dec 2010 14:26

Jack,

'is this surely cannot even be up for debate?' This makes no sense.

To suggest he has brought the game 'up to speed with the modern requirements of sport in terms of fitness, nutrition and work rate' is questionable. There is no doubting Tigers physical fitness, and yes he is above his peers in this sense. However this is not a pre-requisite within golf to be the best, as is proven by Westwoods rise to the top as well as Phil Mickelsons successes, or more recently when Tiger was beaten in a play-off (where physical fitness should surely come to the fore?) by a rather portly looking Mcdowell.

With regards to making golf more accessible I again have to disagree, he isn't the one paying for junior golfers taking up the game for the first time this falls on the shoulders of parents.

As for the 'carrying the weight of golf on his shoulders' he has evidently failed with his huge fall from grace. However this is not my argument, my argument is that he has not had to carry golf as is evident over the years Tiger has missed, were Tiger to retire now, golf would not fall of the sporting radar, highlighted by the 2 golfers up for SPOTY.

To the final comment he has lost it on numerous ocassions with members of the crowd and media on the course, not just inside his own head.

re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
user355139
Reply : Fri 10th Dec 2010 14:37

I never suggested Colin was a good role model, Westwood vs Woods, whose the better role model? This was the question was it not? It is not a case of European bias.

re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
user26342
Reply : Fri 10th Dec 2010 15:07

Mark,

"Statistics show that TV ratings are up to 50% higher for events that Tiger Woods is playing in".

Where are you getting these stats from? The same place that quotes Westwood saying "it's a disgrace"?

"one cannot deny the fact that the vast amounts of money these guys play for today is a result of the career of Tiger Woods."

So are you saying that the Race to Dubai was down to Tiger?

Jack,

"He has solely brought the game up to speed with the modern requirements of sport in terms of fitness, nutrition and work rate."

Disagree, way before Tiger was around Gary Player was more fitter than Tiger & was more health concious which is why it enabled him to play for as long as it did.

The fact is Tiger is more in the spotlight because of his on & off the course behaviour. Isn't that what sells papers?

No one is disputing how good Tiger WAS but until he proves us wrong he (& his loyal fans!) will have to admit that currently he's 2nd best.

re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
user202037 [FORUM MODERATOR]
Reply : Sat 11th Dec 2010 15:01

Lewis has a point, years ago he could have jumped in his car, driven about 10 miles and having paid a couple of quid (nothing if he smoked B&H's) could watch the likes of Sam Snead or Doug Sanders alongside top European golfers. I could go for nothing as a member of the PGA. Today it would cost both Lewis and me £50+ to see Golfers like this play. You could see World Stars in Yorkshire in the past, not anymore. Why? The Corporate side of Tour Golf is now bigger than the actual play at a Tournament venue. Golf and Football have both gone the same way, they can fill a venue with the product (a match/game) and if you won't pay the £50 someone else will so they can fill the places.

BTW, you can still go and watch some good golf in Regional PGA Events for nothing. You can also get closer to friendly players too.

TheLyth

re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
user26342
Reply : Mon 13th Dec 2010 14:34

Mark,

"Firstly, there is no way Gary Player was in better physical condition than Tiger Woods is today. I'm afraid there is no comparison."

So your telling me that Gary Player (who was nicknamed Mr Fitness) wasn't as fit as Tiger who drinks, gambles. womanises (& probably other things we don't know about). Cmon be serious. I bet Tiger won't make the cut at the Masters when he's in his 60's!

"Secondly, to suggest that Tiger is only in the spotlight because of his off course behaviour is also incorrect."

I didn't suggest he was in the spotlight just for his OFF course behaviour, I said ON & OFF (please read before posting).

Respect is earnt & I think Tiger lost some of that with recent events.


Last edit : Mon 13th Dec 2010 16:15
re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
user202037 [FORUM MODERATOR]
Reply : Mon 13th Dec 2010 14:35

To earn respect you have to show respect.

TheLyth

re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
user26342
Reply : Mon 13th Dec 2010 14:39

Mark,

Please read this & then tell me there's no comparison!!

http://garyplayer.com/news/news_detail/gary_player_the_pioneer_of_diet_health_and_fitness_in_golf/

re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
user8 [FORUM MODERATOR]
Reply : Mon 13th Dec 2010 22:50

TW sounds like a nutter though, doing leg squats at 3am in the morning when his children had just been born and getting the Celtic Manor gym to open early at 5am for his fitness session.

I suppose if you want to be the best you got to do something different.

Good to see Westwood doing the health/science thing with some biomechanics: http://yfrog.com/h0p3oj

re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
user331868
Reply : Tue 14th Dec 2010 10:13

Just like to say Mark Jenkins wins my numbskull of the year award. {undisputed at that}.cryinghttp://www.golfshake.com/scripts/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/cry_smile.gif" title="crying" width="20" />

re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
user202037 [FORUM MODERATOR]
Reply : Tue 14th Dec 2010 13:56

I have to say Gary Player does not get the credit he should. If he arrived in the Golf World in the mid 90's then the world would be talking about Gary and not Tiger.

Just a couple of Gary Player stories.

Gary arrived in Leeds to play The Yorkshire Evening News Tournament (?) at Howley Hall GC and with nowhere to stay and little money asked if he could sleep in the Locker Room. A Member put him up instead and during the first round Gary hit a shot against a wall that bounced back and hit him on the head, but he managed to complete the round.

In 1975, during The Open Championship at Carnoustie I witnessed his approach to the game first hand. He and I arrived at a Course Entrance at the same time to be met by hundereds of kids searching for autographs. I started to sign some, and Gary said "I'm going to work now, be back at 4pm and I will sign all your books" and off he went. I followed a few minutes later. I went back at 4pm and saw Gary stood there talking to all the kids, signing things and giving out gloves and balls. He stayed for nearly an hour and made sure everyone got what they wanted.

 

I have been lucky over the years to be able to chat with a number of the then Top Golfers but today it is hard to even say "Hello" to some of them. Nick Faldo was the first to go into his 'Zone' during a Tournament and Tiger has taken that 'Zone' to his entire life.

TheLyth

re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
user331868
Reply : Wed 15th Dec 2010 13:37

Mark- There's no disputing the fact Tiger Woods is one of the best golfers ever to play the game, and he has done a lot in bringing the game to a new level. He in fact is one of my favourite player's without question, however Lee Westwood in my view is easily the best golfer in the world at the moment and will be the man to beat next year not Tiger. The fact that lee has not won a major shouldn't come into it, are you saying all those players that happen to have a purple patch for 4 days  won a major and then done not much else for the rest of there careers are better players than Weswood, if so we might as well get rid of the world rankings and rank players on winning majors. { the list would be very small }....!!!!!!

re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
user127691
Reply : Wed 15th Dec 2010 13:50

I'm with Mark on this, this is sourgrapes from Westwood. I don't care what Lee or G-Mac say about their best mate it was disrespectful for Westwood to say Fowler did not deserve it. Rory has no doubt had a bettter year than Ricky but there are a few reasons why I don't see why Rory should win Rookie of the year and they are,

  • McCilroy earned his full card to play on the european tour 3 years ago. This was his 3rd full season as a fully carded pro, so what if it was his first on the PGA. Rory Mcilroy is not what I would class as a true rookie.
  • RIckie Fowlers honours in his first season as a fully eligible pro are 10 top 25 finishes with 7 tops tens a 3rd and a 2nd. This came off the back of playing 3 events the year before and getting 2 top ten finishes including a 2nd place in his first ever event as a pro.
  • Ror'y finishes his first season as a pro just inside the world top 50 where as Rickie came 32nd
  • The list is endless this was Fowlers 1st season as a pro and his achievements were outstanding, Rory did have a better season but not by that much and when you consider he has 2 years more tour experience then it is clear to see who was the best ROOKIE of the year.

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user26342
    Reply : Wed 15th Dec 2010 14:05

    Gary,

    The FACT is that it was Rory's 1st season on the PGA. This is what the PGA Rookie of the year title is based upon so Rory is fully entitled to it. The FACT also is that the competitors in the PGA are not the same as the European tour that you are comparing to (except for maybe a few).

    In your own admission you said "Rory did have a better season ......" so he should of won!!!!

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user331868
    Reply : Wed 15th Dec 2010 14:15

    I have not got a problem with Fowler getting rookie of the year, but i hate  the fact we have a British world number 1 and people seem to take great pleasure in having pops at him instead of feeling proud and giving him the respect and credit he deserves. Also we should be proud that European golfers are dominating the worlds top 20 and also with the introduction of events from Asia ,Africa and the Middle East we have a European tour to rival the PGA....!!!!!!

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user26342
    Reply : Wed 15th Dec 2010 14:31

    Mark,

    I was answering Gary's responses.

    Another bold remark "I don’t think this is debatable to be honest, and anyone who disagrees lacks integrity and respect and can be considered a bad loser."

    So no other sports person in the world has ever said "I think we should of won" or "We were the better side etc etc"???

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user26342
    Reply : Wed 15th Dec 2010 14:36

    Mark,

    You need to re-read your posts!!!

    You just said "Secondly, I am not saying Westwood does not deserve his spot on the top of the world rankings. I have also never mentioned that Lee Westwood is not the best player in the world at this moment in time."

    but you said this in your very first response : "My personal view is that he cannot truly lay claim to being the best golfer in the world whilst he is still chasing his first major."

     

    Unless he's won a major since then you must still believe that he is not the best golfer??

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user26342
    Reply : Wed 15th Dec 2010 14:44

    Mark

    I'm not the one contradicting myself am I?

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user26342
    Reply : Wed 15th Dec 2010 14:48

    Mark,

    I have just pointed it out to you a few posts back.

    You say you have never said that Lee is not the best player in the world BUT then you contradict yourself by firstly saying that it is your opinion that until Lee wins a major he cannot call himself the best player in the world??

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user355139
    Reply : Wed 15th Dec 2010 14:49

    touche john

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user26342
    Reply : Wed 15th Dec 2010 14:59

    Mark,

    what has that got to do with the comments you posted??

     

    You either don't think he is the best golfer in the world or you do, make your mind up or you start to sound ridiculous

     

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user355139
    Reply : Wed 15th Dec 2010 15:00

    What is the relevance in this argument Mark, that is football (a team sport) this is golf. There is no doubting that Tiger once was the better golf but there is no disputing that it is now Lee, only time will tell if Tiger can ever be at the top of the pile again. Westwoods form is more than just a purple patch, he has been rewarded for two years of continued excellence.

    As for the Rooney vs Carroll debate it is far more subjective and for what it's worth Rooney is still a cut above.

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user355139
    Reply : Wed 15th Dec 2010 15:19

    That is again completely subjective, what are you basing this on? purely on his goalscoring form? then yes he is playing better, but you are not considering his overall performance, if you have watched Rooney lately he is getting his game back together and is bring more than just goals to united.

    Anyway this is not a football forum...I think it is you not getting the point, Westwood is the better golfer as we speak and until the day Tigers form returns your argument is pointless. It is like arguing Monty is still the best golfer in Europe he just needs to regain his form, another pointless argument as the decline has been over a sustained period of time, as has Westwoods rise and Tigers decline.

    Further to this your original argument was the that Westwood cannot lay claim to being the best, fact of the matter he is, your argument was that Tiger is better and now your backtracking saying he soon will be again? Make your mind up

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user331868
    Reply : Wed 15th Dec 2010 15:24

    Maybe we should change the subject and have a new one. Which continent will win most Majors next year my money is on the Europeans even though the Americans have a big advantage as 3 of the 4 Majors are in the states, therefore they will have a bigger percentage of Americans in 3 of them. Also can anyone honestly say  there is an American playing better golf over the last few months than Westwood/ Poulter/ G-Mac and Kaymer not to mention the pony tailed mechanic jimenez who won 3 or 4 tournaments this year and the Molinari brothers who have had an exceptional 2010 and talking of rookie of the year what about Monassero winning on his first season as a pro on the European tour at the young age of 17, now thats what you call a rookie of the year....!!!!

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user355139
    Reply : Wed 15th Dec 2010 15:35

    Christopher,

    A man who speaks sense, I have to concur with all of your posts to date. I personally think it will be 2 of 4 as you can never account for a wildcard coming from nowhere such as oustheizen this year.

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user127691
    Reply : Wed 15th Dec 2010 15:52

    This is astupid argument, there are 52 weeks in a year and Lee Westwood has been worklod number 1 for about 4 of them, and Tiger for the other 48 so be realistic folks Tiger is the best player in the world. Forget the footbal analogy then if we think that is a team game and not relevant, but Damon Hill won the world championship once but he wasn't as good as Scumacher.

    The only reason Westwood is world number 1 is because he got injured, how can anyone move to the top of the rankings without playing that's even more rediculous than this campaign against Mark. I'll take a £10 bet with Mr Flood that Lee Westwood will never win a Major, the lad is good no one disputes that but is constitancy going to win you a major? NO flair and imagination and potentially 1 days worth of outstanding golf is.

    A well respected man on this site beleives the standard of golfers in the world has declined due to the lack of feel, imagination and shot making ability and to be honest Westwood doesn't really light the fires in any of those departments.

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user127691
    Reply : Wed 15th Dec 2010 15:56

    Oh and on the Rookie thing, I understand Rory is technically a Rookie but technically being a Rookie must surely have gone against him in the vote.

    You must agree that rory has bags more experience than Fowler and should be doing better at this point in his career. Has he been that much better to show he is alot further on in his careers? In my opinion not.

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user331868
    Reply : Wed 15th Dec 2010 16:04

    Another Westwood basher, typical of some people in this country when one of our sportsman reach the top of his sport they come out of the woodwork and find reasons to knock them. I couldn't careless about the previous 48 weeks of the year we are talking about the present and if I'm not mistaken Lee Westwood is number 1 and until someone knocks him off top spot he is the best. ps if someone dose knock him of its more likely to be a European than Tiger....!!!!

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user355139
    Reply : Wed 15th Dec 2010 16:11

    Gary,

    In my opinion Rory is much further on in his career, granted this counts against him for the Rookie award and fairplay to Fowler, however Rory is younger, has more tournament wins (Rickie has none) and top 10's, has placed in the top 3 of majors (Rickie hasn't) and is 11th in the world (Rickie is no.28) and rory has been higher.

    To your previous post, Westwood was also injured and like Tiger it was his previous results that made him no.1 I don't see you suggesting it was ridiculous that Tiger remained no.1 despite not playing for a few months. It was because the way the rankings work it rewards results over a 24 month period not just 1 or 2.

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user26342
    Reply : Wed 15th Dec 2010 16:23

    Gary,

    I'll take that bet, easiest Tenner I'l ever win. Bearing in mind he's came 2nd & 3rd so far.

    "A well respected man on this site beleives the standard of golfers in the world has declined due to the lack of feel, imagination and shot making ability and to be honest Westwood doesn't really light the fires in any of those departments."

    So how many majors did Faldo win?? Did he have those qualities you mention above?

    I'll think you'll find that that well respected man on this site believes that the reason that golf has declined in this world is due to the fact they raised the maximum handicap for men from 24 to 28!!!

    Mark,

    Funny you should bring Rooney into this debate as it was also after his 'off the field' antics that his game went to pot & nothing to do with 'swing kick changes'. Other than that you can't compare the 2 sportsman or games for obvious reasons. 

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user355139
    Reply : Wed 15th Dec 2010 16:27

    Mark,

    More than likely it was a case as it often is in formula 1 he had the better car? Either way I have never doubted Schumacher was the better driver and will go down in history as such but is his disappointing season a sign that he isn't the best or should we wait like we are with Tiger for him to regain his form? Your obsession with bringing up other sports that have no bearing on golf is bemusing to say the least and one that is working against you.

    If Tiger should regain the world no.1 spot I would not dispute he is the better golfer and he will no doubt go down in history as the better golfer but this is not what we are talking about we are talking about the here and now and as such Westwood is the better of the two, otherwise should we drag up the argument who is better, Tiger or Nicklaus? another argument based on previous form and history?

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user26342
    Reply : Wed 15th Dec 2010 16:28

    Mark,

    Your getting all confused. No-one is saying that Tiger won't be good again what were trying to explain is that currently at today's date Lee Westwood is the World's No.1 golfer.

    To answer your question about Damon Hill & Schu then at the time you mentioned then yes Damon was the better driver, he must have been to have won the title!?!?!?!

    Whoever won it after that then they were the better driver.

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user331868
    Reply : Wed 15th Dec 2010 16:32

    Mark

    You say was Damon Hill better than Schumacher, simply put yes he was when he won the world title. we are not disputing the fact Tiger is the better golfer over there carears, but this moment in time there's only one winner WESTWOOD....!!!!

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user127691
    Reply : Wed 15th Dec 2010 19:30

    Yes we are not looking at careers but the rankings are compiled over the last 2 years, so if we are talking about immediancy then surely G-mac or Kaymer are the best players at the minute as these are the in form guys.

    So at this very minute by your rekoning Westwood is not number one then

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user26342
    Reply : Wed 15th Dec 2010 19:40

    No Gary!?!?!

    If were looking at immediancy then Lee is also an in form player, please take a look at his 2010 profile. At least 3 wins, numerous top 10's which is why he is the Number 1. Simples!


    Last edit : Wed 15th Dec 2010 19:41
    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user355139
    Reply : Thu 16th Dec 2010 08:47

    Gary

    At this moment in time the last two significant tournaments played Westwood and G-Mac won, you could also include Pablo Martin I guess, It is impossible in golf for someone to win week in week out and as such the rankings are compiled over a 2 year period and consequently by being the form player throughout this period Westwood is no.1

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user355139
    Reply : Thu 16th Dec 2010 09:11

    Yes that is what I am saying, he has 'consistently' been the best, when Tiger was number 1 for 48 weeks this year he wasnt always the best player, in fact he didn't have a single win in this period (during which he also had injuries and absences) however over the 2 year period he did enough to merit being the no.1, that is no longer the case and it is now Westwood who has that honour. The fact that Woods and Westwood had injuries during these periods and still managed to be/become no.1 shows their levels of performance in the tournaments they did play were consistently higher than those of their competition.

    It is a shame that it is not based on one years worth of performances as Tiger would not even feature in the top 10 this year, however if we were to have it like this you would have to wipe everyones ranking points and the beginning of each year, where is the sense in that?

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user26342
    Reply : Thu 16th Dec 2010 09:32

    Mark, What doesn't make sense is you keep contradicting yourself. Please make your mind up & decide if you think he IS NOT the best in the world or HE IS.

    I'll keep it simple for you & use FACTS as you seem to like them.

    Westwood is No.1 in the world FACT.

    & correct Westwood did only win twice.

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user355139
    Reply : Thu 16th Dec 2010 09:36

    All this coming from someone who claims not to know how the ranking system works? How are you determining who the best golfer is? Through subjective bias? Purely on the number of wins? The rankings are compiled in the fairest way possible to determine who is the best golfer based on a number of factors such as the quality of the field and the prestige of the event with ranking points diminishing the further from the date of the event we get.

    If it is as simple as to suggest 'X' is the best golfer surely we should just discard the ranking system and leave it open to debate? Thus crediting no one for being the best?

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user26342
    Reply : Thu 16th Dec 2010 09:38

    Ross,

    sounds like sour grapes to me or being a bad loser!! (I think we've gone full circle )


    Last edit : Thu 16th Dec 2010 09:44
    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user26342
    Reply : Thu 16th Dec 2010 09:46

    Mark,

    While were at it why don't we also throw away how the premier league operates & only award the title to the team who won the most games???

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user26342
    Reply : Thu 16th Dec 2010 09:49

    Mark,

    contradicting myself would be me saying now "I never said Westwood won 3 times" just like you did with your comment. Difference is I have admitted my error & said you were correct. It's called integrity!!

    you are the only one getting there knickers in a twist about him being or not being the best in the world.

    Were all just saying he deserves his place at No.1

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user355139
    Reply : Thu 16th Dec 2010 09:52

    Mark,

    You seemed to have just ignored the question 'How are you determining who the best golfer is? Through subjective bias? Purely on the number of wins?' Surely to be considered the best consistency is a significant factor? otherwise 'the best' would change on a weekly basis, and by being consistently in and around the top, if not at the top is what has made Westwood the best, highlighted by his status as no.1!

    John made the mistake of suggesting Westwood had one 3 events when it was only 2, hardly a massive contradiction in comparison to someone of yours I don't think.

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user26342
    Reply : Thu 16th Dec 2010 10:03

    Mark,

    nice to see you've got a sense of humour

    Also no surprise you've avoided  to respond to your contradicting comments.

    As Ross has said how do you determine what the difference is between being the best or being the most consistent??

    If were talking right now at this present date then the World Rankings are there for everyone to see. If were talking about over a 10 year period then it's got to be Tiger.

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user355139
    Reply : Thu 16th Dec 2010 10:05

    Mark,

    I never lay claim to understanding them inside out but the overall concept is pretty simple, it is a system that ultimately generates a position based on performance to determine the best, hence why Tiger was no.1 for so long, hence why Westwood is now. When Tiger was no.1 was he not consistent? or just the best? No he was consistently the best as is the case with Westwood, you can bring up he only has 2 tournament victories this year but that is not what pre-determines who is best! someone could win 5,6,7 times on tour and never have another top 20 finish are they then the best?

    As for your attack on Johns use of faces this only highlights your deperate attempt to cling on to something in this debate and reflects poorly on your levels of maturity. You have admitted Westwood deserves to be no.1 and as such I cannot see why you can't admit at this moment in time that he is the best golfer in the world? Especially given his recent domination at the Nedbank Challenge!

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user355139
    Reply : Thu 16th Dec 2010 10:19

    Mark,

    The relation to boxing is completely irrelevant as it works on a completely different system to golf. In boxing there is not always direct competition between oponents, there are several 'world' titles in every weight division, highlighted by the fact both Klitschko's hold a world title of sorts at the moment, there are also no rankings as such, therefore the 2 are incomparable!

    Though if you are looking to use another sport for comparison, as you seem to like to do so often, the only sport whose format and rankings are remotely comparable is Tennis and even so 'remotely' is the key word here as their ranking points are compiled differently based on this years performance in an event vs their performance last year.

    I think you stick to relevant arguments instead of muddling your argument in an attempt to justify your comments.

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user331868
    Reply : Thu 16th Dec 2010 10:21

    Hi Guys

    just switched on my computer and i cant believe this subject is going strong. Have you lot been up all night or what......!!!!

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user355139
    Reply : Thu 16th Dec 2010 10:23

    I think Mark may have lost some sleep there Chris, only explanation for his confused defence?

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user26342
    Reply : Thu 16th Dec 2010 10:27

    Mark,

    firstly I think your confusing me with Ross!!

    Secondly did you or did you not post these responses??

     "Secondly, I am not saying Westwood does not deserve his spot on the top of the world rankings. I have also never mentioned that Lee Westwood is not the best player in the world at this moment in time."

    "My personal view is that he cannot truly lay claim to being the best golfer in the world whilst he is still chasing his first major."


    Can you spot where the contradiction is???


    Last edit : Thu 16th Dec 2010 10:28
    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user331868
    Reply : Thu 16th Dec 2010 10:40

    Wow John are you some sort of legal beak, i think you've got Mark banged to rights there mate, i look forward to his reply....!!!!

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user331868
    Reply : Thu 16th Dec 2010 10:52

    I would like to thank Mark/ john / Ross / Gary and all the other guys that have posted their replies to this forum its been a blast over the last couple of days Ive thoroughly enjoyed it. Did you know that this debate has trebled the number of replies than any of the other 49 debates that are currently going on at Golf Shake, with over 115 replies at the last count. Maybe we will have another debate soon on who has been the best golfer over the last couple of years if someone would like to start it off.....!!!!!

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user26342
    Reply : Thu 16th Dec 2010 11:01

    Phew!! We got there in the end!

    If that is your opinion then fair enough.

    My opinion is that currently he is the best & deserves all the accolades he gets.

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user26342
    Reply : Thu 16th Dec 2010 12:17

    Steve,

    How did you get to that conclusion?? Have you read all the posts?

    And for the record no I don't.

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user355139
    Reply : Thu 16th Dec 2010 12:44

    Most pointless contribution goes to Steve Cullum, and just as Mark was starting to earn some credibility on this forum, shame!

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user26342
    Reply : Thu 16th Dec 2010 12:50

    Steve,

    You've made a point but not backed it up with anything other than proving a loyalty to a buddy?

    If you clearly believe that then there is no point in trying to debate it with you.


    Last edit : Thu 16th Dec 2010 12:51
    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user331868
    Reply : Thu 16th Dec 2010 13:47

    Just when we finally thought we had come to the end of this debate Marks boyfriend pops up from nowhere and puts a spanner in the works. Well done Steve....!!!!

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user202037 [FORUM MODERATOR]
    Reply : Thu 16th Dec 2010 13:47

    Well guys,

    This discussion started life about Westwood talking about Rickie Fowler winnings Rookie of the Year in the US ahead of Rory McIlroy and turned into a Who is the Best?

    'The Best' is an opinion and 'World No 1' is a Fact, and yes they are not the same. But please if you have an opinion, discuss why you are of that opinion and don't think everyone else should hold that same opinion because they don't.

    TheLyth   wearing Moderators hat!

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user331868
    Reply : Thu 16th Dec 2010 14:00

    I would just like to say for the benefit of Mark and his original question, yes maybe Westwood was a bit out of order saying what he did about Fowler. As the worlds number 1 player he should have kept his thoughts to himself and not made them public. However Lee Westwood is at THIS MOMENT IN TIME THE BEST GOLFER IN THE WORLD  FACT.............!!!!!!!!!!!!

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user331868
    Reply : Thu 16th Dec 2010 14:02

    Mark

    its only a joke, dont take things so seriously cryinghttp://www.golfshake.com/scripts/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/cry_smile.gif" title="crying" width="20" />

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user331868
    Reply : Thu 16th Dec 2010 14:08

    Mark

    I couldnt agree more, its been fun though. see ya soon...!!!hearthttp://www.golfshake.com/scripts/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/heart.gif" title="heart" width="20" />hearthttp://www.golfshake.com/scripts/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/heart.gif" title="heart" width="20" />broken hearthttp://www.golfshake.com/scripts/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/broken_heart.gif" title="broken heart" width="20" />

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user24437
    Reply : Thu 16th Dec 2010 14:26

    Wohoo, group hug Image

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user127691
    Reply : Thu 16th Dec 2010 16:44

    I've completely changed my mind forget Westwood, forget Tiger I've just been up the range and it's clear on current form I'm the best player in the world.

    I hit at least 10 out of 100 balls straight, who says a 3 week layoff because of crap weather could possibly affect your game.

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user53837
    Reply : Thu 16th Dec 2010 16:55

     

    Does this settle it ?  Back 9 Show http://www.golfshake.com/video/back9/ GMac player of the year, not 2 years

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user26342
    Reply : Thu 16th Dec 2010 20:17

    All of this & it could have been settled with a few smilies, who have guessed it??

    We've debated who's the best, why don't we turn our attentions to who the worst is?

    I'll start a topic & let's see what happens.

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user83900
    Reply : Fri 17th Dec 2010 11:35

    Here are the 'highlights' from this very long post 

    http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb358/Jim_Dorrington/highlights.jpg" style="width: 251px; height: 201px;" />

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user26342
    Reply : Tue 21st Dec 2010 14:27

    smileyhttp://www.golfshake.com/scripts/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/regular_smile.gif" title="smiley" />sadhttp://www.golfshake.com/scripts/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/sad_smile.gif" title="sad" />winkhttp://www.golfshake.com/scripts/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/wink_smile.gif" title="wink" />laughhttp://www.golfshake.com/scripts/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/teeth_smile.gif" title="laugh" />cheekyhttp://www.golfshake.com/scripts/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/tounge_smile.gif" title="cheeky" />blushhttp://www.golfshake.com/scripts/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/embaressed_smile.gif" title="blush" />surprisehttp://www.golfshake.com/scripts/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/omg_smile.gif" title="surprise" />coolhttp://www.golfshake.com/scripts/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/shades_smile.gif" title="cool" />cryinghttp://www.golfshake.com/scripts/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/cry_smile.gif" title="crying" />

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user331868
    Reply : Wed 22nd Dec 2010 07:45

    Ladies and gentlemen, on the left we have Mr Flood on the right we have Mr Jenkins, and the winner .

         


    Last edit : Thu 6th Jan 2011 06:35
    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user26342
    Reply : Wed 5th Jan 2011 22:07

    http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/26122010/58/caddie-houdini-acts-t-keep-denying-westwood.html

    I can almost smell that crisp tenner LOL

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user331868
    Reply : Thu 6th Jan 2011 07:17

    My prediction for 2011, Lee Westwood to win hes first major, and still be number 1 player in the world at end of the year. I will certainly be backing Westwood each way, not only in the majors but in most events he enters as i did in 2010 and made a small fortune. There are a lot of very good golfers out there especially from Europe, but for me Westy is the Besty. { it takes a hell of a lot of hard work both mentally & physically and just as much talent to drag yourself up from over 200 in the world 4-5 years ago to become  WORLDS - NO-1 }.        


    Last edit : Thu 6th Jan 2011 07:28
    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user127691
    Reply : Thu 6th Jan 2011 11:33

    I've been saving all my coppers for the £10 I may owe you Mr Flood. I hope I am sending you that money I just don't think I will.

    Interesting to see GMac getting an MBE for winning a major and his amazing contribution to the Ryder Cup but no mention for Westy reaching No.1, maybe the queen still thinks Tiger is the best!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!smileyhttp://www.golfshake.com/scripts/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/regular_smile.gif" title="smiley" width="20" />

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user26342
    Reply : Thu 6th Jan 2011 14:04

    GMac deserves all the accolades he gets but even he himself has admitted recently that he will be focusing more on his world ranking score for 2011. 

    http://www.setanta.com/ie/Articles/2011/01/05/McDowell-out-to-prove-his-worth/gnid-84917/

    re: Westwoods comment Rory vs Rickie
    user127691
    Reply : Fri 7th Jan 2011 19:26

    Who ever comes out on top this year is going to have to really play well there are 4 serious conteders this year for that No.1 spot. I'm really looking forward to a year of tooing and frowing with the big guns and some serious competition.

    Which ever side of the fence our opinions fall were in for a great season of golf this year and hopefully some great banter along the way, this one seems to have got everyones juices flowing on here.


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