CONGU

Par as a Basis for Handicapping
Q. Professional golf uses Par as a measure of comparative playing performance. Why is the UHS not based on Par?

A. CONGU® does not consider that Par provides a suitable basis for a reliable and robust handicap system. Par is a very crude measure of the playing difficulty of a golf course. Two courses having the same Par may vary in length by many hundred yards. To illustrate how great this difference can be, consider two courses constructed in similar terrain:

Course A - Four Par 3 holes each 140 yards in length and fourteen Par 4 holes each 300 yards in length. Total course length 4,760 yards. Par 68.

Course B - Four Par 3 holes each 220 yards in length and fourteen Par 4 holes each 400 yards in length. Total course length 6,480 yards. Par 68.

Assuming similar relative playing difficulties on each course, the scoring potential of a scratch golfer on the shorter course A would be quite different from that expected on the much longer Course B. Although each has a Par of 68 the respective Standard Scratch Scores would be of the order of 63 and 71 respectively. It is obvious therefore, that Par does not provide a viable basis for handicapping. The above example is based on men's course lengths but similar principles apply to the Par of ladies' courses.

This shows the idiocy of the rules regarding SSS, especially when they give two options that are poles apart to justify their very weak case against using par as a basis for handicap.

In the first instance I would certainlny like to see the scratch player shoot 63 in order to play to his handicap and in the second case 14 holes of 400 yards would test the best of the scratch players as well, thus making there two points of reference  irrelevant.

Par is allotted to each individual hole according to minimum lengths and on a hole by hole basis are very fair, yes, even in todays climate of exceptional long hitting, enabling some players to drive short par fours.

I can understand their argument, but there is nothing in the system that allows for a change of ones handicap when playing a different course with a different SSS, we still all play off our current handicaps and that is the sole reason I have for rejecting the SSS and CSS which the amateur game has to put up with.

We all know that a 16 handicap at one club will be a better player than a 16 handicap at another club, all down to the degree of difficulty the courses present, but if you play a match against each other the difference is immediately seen.

I have just joined a new club and it is a very long course with an Par/SSS of 73 and it is for this reason alone that we seem to have a wealth of Cat 1 players, three in the zero to 1 bracket.

John,

You know that I don't see eye to eye with you on this matter, but you are entitled to your opinion. Cat1 players will favour the longer courses because it takes the element of stupid scores from Comps. A Cat1 player will want to play as much competitive golf as they can, and win some times.

I spent many years playing on a 9hole Muni in Leeds (and have returned) with a Par of 70 and a SSS of 66. When guys got down to 5 or 6 they moved to other local courses where SSS was nearer 70. The reason was that it was easier to play within their Hcp range and they had more chance of winning Comps. A 4hcp player had to shoot level par at Roundhay while he could shoot 76 or +7 up the road at Moortown GC. In the 70's Moortown was known as the hardest Par 69 course in Britain, today it is a Par 72 after a few changes.

I agree that "Home Course Advantage" can sometimes be looked at as unfair and there is a case for giving visitors extra shots, but you would also have to take them off sometimes.

You must agree John, that what ever the system for Hcp, it will always favour one group of Hcp's and the other groups will feel hard done by.

TheLyth

We could carry on doing this subject to death, but you will have to agree with me, Lyth, that one only has to look at the variance in scores from the winner to the last man to show that the current system does not allow everyone to cross the line together, yet after all is said and done, that is the object of a handicap.

Yes John, but it's a fact of life. Look at the Pro's, a 64 may be the best of the day, but someone else may shoot a 79 or even more.

I think a lot of amateurs think that they should play to their Hcp everytime they play, even on a bad day.

I will set out to play thinking of anything, I am capible of shooting into the low 60's but always aim to break 80. Thats almost a shot a hole difference.

TheLyth

I think you may have hit the nail on the head there with your explanation  of the vast difference between the best and the porrest rounds. Pros shooting 79 will never win anything, and should not have the audacity to be call themselves professional

The handicap system for us poor amateurs has been designed to accommodate the incredible inconsistency today and with the .1, the time it takes to get back up to a handicap where one has a chance of playing to it.

I don't know whether or not you ever operated as an amateur under the old system of whole numbers, but this alone bred consistency inasmuch that bad rounds cost a whole shot and this is why I feel that players of yesteryear in Cat 1 were far superior in every way to those of today.

What a benefit that would be for you Lewis, you would learn so much from The Lyth, I am sure.

Lewis,

We will have to do that.

I always find a course like Roundhay is a great one to gain confidence on. Practice driving on a Range and learn the rest at Roundhay.

TheLyth

I would have to side with John on this one.

When playing in Spain I had the pleasure of pairing up with a Prtugese guy who was practising for a comp on the course that wekeend. He explained how the handicaps were adjusted. I think this is similar or the same as the USGA system

Each course has a slope rating, you then look at your courses slope rating versus the course you are playing's slope rating and there is an adjustment either up ro down in your handicap, the same applies to all players playing. This would ssem to be a fair way of adjusting handicaps to balance people out a little.

I realise that the CSS is meant to level the playing field but I am not sure this really works or is  a true reflection of the difficulty.

The two courses at my club are Par 72 SSS71 and Par 70 SSS68, yet I expect to be 5 shots better than my h'cap vs SSS on the second course and have regularly achieved that, rather than the 3 in the difference between SSS.

For me since my CONGU handicap is based on the "harder course" - maybe should be SSS 72. Then I either have an advantage or no disadvantage when playing away.

There must be some way to balance the courses better, and maybe it is having something more accurate than the SSS.which has maybe a range of 66-74 at its widest for the majority of UK course where as I thin the slope system goes form 110 - 140 or similar which allows for a wider variation.

"I too am now more in favour of abandoning the ridiculous SSS system and the even more ridiculous CSS system in a favour of Par is the Yardstick approach" 

this is something i have agreed with for along time.

when we go to play a course we play to par so handicaps should be adjusted to par, if we were to look back at rounds posted on golfshake, how many of us actually look at the sss of the course, not many i bet!

all we look at is "i shot a net 68 and par is 72"

when i play golf i play to par for each hole so how can you say this course has a par 72 but a sss of 68, which holes do you decide then to lose the 4 shots to get to the sss

completely ridiculous in my opinion!!!

Ones Hcp is based on what you are capible of. CONGU say "you do it once, you can do it again" and that has been the same for many years. The new system allows one to go UP quicker than the old ones and the US system (with slope & rating) allows change even more because every round is included, not just Comps, as out present system.

I have three Hcp's, each one using a different system. Official CONGU Hcp = 5.6, Golfshake Hcp (based on 2009-2010?) = 3.0, US Hcp (based on 2004 to present) = +1.8. So what is my actual ability?

I have always thought that the adjustment to SSS is the biggest problem across the whole range of Hcp's and that the CSS system would be better if adjusted for each Catagory and not as a whole. This would show a fairer number. A Clubs Cat1 players, all shooting around the same score could all get 0.1 back because of scores posted by 16 Hcpers when they actually show the real PAR FOR THE DAY (CSS).

I will always argue the point that you can't use Par as a base for Hcp because a Par 4 can differ by 223yds (251yds to 474yds), just as CONGU say in JP's opening post.

I would also like to see a Club hold some Comps where the Catagories play off scratch against themselves. I have played in Scratch Leagues and know of a Nett League so these type of Comps do already happen, though in Inter-Club Team match form.

TheLyth

Who would make the decision on how difficult each course is & on what basis?

John

For most courses where there are regular competitons already and data then you could make a reasonable stab at the difficulty. As scores of others playing those courses start to come into the equation then you could start to cross reference scores between courses and adjust accordingly, maybe annually. It might take a couple of year but I think it would be possible.

I have a club handicap of 17.5 and on here I am 15.3 I think the two are about right, one refelcting my scorig on a Par 72, SSS 71 and the other the general scores I acheive on other courses.

To the comment who looks at the SSS, I would say I do, not in selecting courses but before I go out to understand how I should be doing in comparison to say my "underlying" target score.

Christopher stated:-   I never buy into the argument about length of holes having influence and needing the SSS. Again Pros every week play different courses where different length holes appear some course have 500+ yard Par 4s where as some course have 480+ yard Par 5s. Its something unique about golf courses, everyone is different and poses its own challenge.

You play whats in front of you at the end of the day. Doesn't matter how long or short a course is you still have to score round it. Shouldn't need SSS and CSS to further complicate the matter.

If JP and myself were to play an 18hole Match at Roundhay off our GS Hcps (I give John 10 shots) he would kill me, I would stand more of a chance up the road at Moortown or Alwoodley.

Why?

Because Roundhay has too many holes where John will be putting for Nett Eagles (about 8) where as the other courses will have par 4's John will be unable to reach in two and par 5's he won't get to in three. It doesn't matter what system you use this will not change. Adjust Johns Hcp and you must also adjust mine too.

This is just the game of Golf, and if I was to play John for money I would steer clear of Roundhay. That is unless he fancied himself off scratch!

On another note, JP should remember 'Bogey'. This was a type of Hcp Par. In the days when good Golfers ability was down to them and not the equipment they used. A good long drive was under 300yds and almost all double didget Hcpers were unable to reach that number. You had to hit the centre of your Irons, not just anywhere on the face like todays in order to find Greens.

I agree that Golf today has moved on miles, but the Hcp system is lagging behind. To make the Hcp system fair for everyone you have to start somewhere, the length a course is seems the only option and a SSS is more across the board than Par.

TheLyth

Chris can you elaborate on clause 21,cheers.

Thanks, Chris. I take it that this applies in Wales too?

Can you clarify what 'supplementary' cards are?

Non comp rounds John.

When it comes to increases under the CONGU system I can appreciate where JP is coming from, it can prove difficult for someone who has played at a very high standard to get their handicap up when it's needed through lay of, injury or just bad form.

For handicap reductions I agree with the old system it's the same for everyone and generally the only people that I come cross who complain about it are people who can't get down to scratch because generally they play an easy course that high handicappers consitantly preform well around.

Our competitions are very rarely won by CAT 3/4 golfers as the course is to tough, the CSS has never been less than the SSS in any competition I have plaid this year, infact it is usually above the SSS on the day. Yet this does not mean it is easy to achieve scratch status my playing partner holds the course record at 2 other local courses and regulary shoots below par at away matches for the scratch team but plays of 4.5 at my club.

If we adopted a cratch sytem at our club he would more than likely be playing off 6 or 7 as the SSS for the blue tees is 4 above the par score. This really would be an advantage when he visted another course or entered an open event. If he were at one of his old clubs he would be a +handicapper so would have a 7-8 shot difference in handicap.

I have always said that the Handicap Committee of a Golf Club should use their power and look after their Members. So saying this, that section of the Committee should have experienced people sitting on it.

A guy has a Heart Attack or Stroke but wants to play in Comps has he recovers. The Committee should be able to give him extra shots (6-10?) while he recovers.

You can argue that we should be given BACK at the same level we have shots TAKEN AWAY but until everyone is "truthfull" with their Hcp it can't happen.

TheLyth

For handicap adjustment only why dont we give a score of 1 point for a blob as this should be below what a player should score on a hole anyway?

Dave CAC handed Geordie.

Adopting the US system of slope rating may help all of us. why just cant we get it operated in the UK?

David,

Your comment has put a question in my mind that I can't answer so will have to search for one.

At present in the UK a 'Condition of Entry' for some amateur tournaments state that an entry will only be accepted from within a certain Hcp range. At present our Hcp travels from course to course because it is a 'Set Number' but if we adopted the USGA method we would no longer have a 'Set Number Hcp' that would travel. We could then have a situation where a Player is refused entry into a Competition because of the course he plays. It will be interesting to see how the USGA Sysyem deals with this.

I'll be back with an answer some time.

TheLyth

David

I'm looking forward to the results of your search as I play very often in many of the states of the USA and the course difficulty can vary tremendously. My US colleagues tend to help me out with a slope rating handicap based on my current UK handicap at that time. Obviously I havent entered any competitions in the USA but I will ask my colleagues and freinds how this is treated.....maybe we may just both come up with the same answer.

David,

My search has only shown the GHIN Hcp's the Americans have and I can't find any Comp with a Condition of Competition Entry that uses a Hcp other than GHIN so it must be that the course a Player plays on does effect entry into Open Comps.

TheLyth

DavidI obtained the "workings" from a friend in the USA which I detail below. However he advised me that they do use the slope rating in club competitions either individually or in team events when they play at a different course rather than thier home course......looks like we would never get this adopted here but its a good idea and does keep the play fair on a lesser or more difficult courseDefinition: USGA Slope Rating is a number ranging from 55 to 155 that represents the difficulty of a course for bogey golfers relative to the USGA Course Rating (which represents the difficulty for scratch golfers). Slope rating is not expressed in strokes, but, rather, is a ratio. The higher the slope, the more difficult the course plays for bogey golfers. A slope rating of 113 is considered average. Your base index is always based upon a slope of 113So if your "index" is 24 and you play at a course rated 113, your index is unadjusted.If your index is 24 and you play at a course rated 124.3, your index will be adjusted up by 124.3/113 (i.e. increased by 10 percent).In reverse, if you were always shooting 26 over par on your home course, which was rated at 124.3, then your handicap at your home course is 26, but your index is 113/124.3 times 26, which equals 23.6. When you play at a course rated at 113, your handicap is 23.6. The link for how a slope and rating are determined is:http://golf.about.com/cs/rulesofgolf/a/hfaq_determine.htm

David,

With the way the US work out a Hcp (GHIN), it wouldn't work with some of our competitions. I know of a Nett League where only Hcp's 10-14 can play and it is played off scratch. If the Hcp's were GHIN then you could end up with some difficult decisions.

Player A is Hcp 9.6 from course X with a 123 SR, Player B is Hcp 14.3 from course Y with a 103 SR. If these were CONGU Hcp's they could both play in the teams 'home' and 'away'. What would happen in the US? It seems that Player A couldn't play at course Y because his Hcp would drop below 10 and Player B couldn't play at course X because his Hcp would go above 14.

GHIN may give a more level playing field but it definately is more complicated than CONGU.

TheLyth

I know we say it may not work but surely the Americans must have similar competitions between clubs, and they must have a way to get around it. I do appreciate the 10-14 handicapp range but it may that you just say it's open to 10-14 handicappers when based against a slope rating of the 113 making everyone equal.

I still don't see how that would be any different to what we do now with the CONGU system though, surley the SSS does the same thing over here, So I suppose realistically it is just a problem we encounter with CSS.

Do the american's not have an equvalint CSS system for there weekend comps or if you just play to par and then your handicaps are adjusted by the slope whn playing away games.

Gary

I think your last paragraph hits the nail on the head (or puts the ball on the tee) in that they do play local competitions and the club handicap is adjusted to the different slope rating of the course where the comp is being held, or not if you are playing at your home course. I still think this is a fairer system.

Dave