addressing the equality act

We held our first equality meeting last week at Hazel Grove Golf Club in Cheshire.

 

What was clearly evident was that there were lots of uncertainty and speculation as to what is and isn't allowed by law.

the whole act seemed to much to tackle in one go so we have agreed to all go away and think about the major issue as we see it "FEES" there can no longer be male and female fees, we are all looking at probably a 5,6, and 7  day membership fee or a bronze silver and gold membership package

...the fees for this we have all taken away to muse over as it is clearly essential to achieve the current level of fee income for the club next year, nobody needs a mass exodus to another club locally. Its a finely balanced decision as most of the ladies around the table said that their section had already accepted that there was likely to be fee increase, their concern was more about what will we get back on tee times etc.

Another option which was bounced about was to simply only have 7 day membership for the club for everyone, that way all we needed to do was divide the clubs required fee income by the number of current members and get a figure.

by only having one level of membership it reduces the need for policing the 5 & 6 day members that might try to play on other days.

But there was then an interesting comment about winter league and would ladies be able to play....which they will be entitled to in their own competition if enough members join.  

It was agreed by all the the club competitions and tee times will require a complete overhaul to accommodate the new laws and we notified our comps secretary immediately as it could have implications on the diary being prepared for next year.

We also formed a small sub commitee to review the articles of the club to see where we felt the need for equality could be questioned.

All in all we had a very constructive and enlightening meeting, we have decided that this is so important that we are holding a weekly meeting to get ready to present a report at our AGM in October where any necessary changes should be made.

I realise that there are a lot of male golfers out there who have concerns about equality on the course, unfortunately it will happen at your club so live with it or pack up the game....golf clubs it appears were one of the specific case studies for the laws to be changed.  

Anyone else got anything useful to report on how your club is addressing the equality situation.

Ian, are you getting any guidance from the EGU ?

Ian

 I am the Captain of our club on the Wirral and have been helping in the office. I've only just come across the Bill, and have read the EGU guidance documents.

Everything you say above rings true for us too, and I guess most golf clubs

Its a minefield isnt it? Surely this is going to change the face of golf clubs completely.

It would be good to maybe get a discussion group going onhere to bounce ideas and solutions around - if anyone else interested. Unless there is already sucjh a thing and I havent found it yet.

 

Phil Jone 

 

 

Ian, if you want me to set up a private group/forum to facilitate discussion just let me know.

 

Regards, Darren. 

If we take it to the extent stated here, gone will be The Curtis Cup, Solheim Cup, Ladies European Tour and LPGA Tour.

I don't think so.

Men and women will still compete in their own Comps, but the Membership of a Club is the main question. No more LadyGentlemen Members but 'Members'.

TheLyth 

I am also going to a meeting on Thursday - (not the same one is it Ian?) - of all Wirral Secretaries - so hopefully have some ideas and options to share. Be good to pool the ideas and see if we can all come out with some reasonable suggestions.

 Phil

Had a very useful meeting with Secretaries from 7 local clubs yesterday and some good ideas. We have started a 'round robin' discussion on issues, and my first email of thoughts is below; any comments welcomed;

The Equality Act is due to be in force 1st October 2010, and the areas we have to conform with are as follows; Age- Not to be in force until 2012, so we have some time to see what the final Bill saysDisability- Not seen as a major issue as we should all conform to this alreadyGender Reassignment - To be consideredMarriage & Civil Partnership- To be consideredRace- Not seen as a major issue as we should all conform to this alreadyReligion or Belief- Not seen as a major issue as we should all conform to this alreadySex- To be consideredSexual Orientation- To be considered In my mind, I have split the areas to be considered into 2. 1.      Marriage & Civil Partnership and Sexual Orientation: The areas we need to consider regarding these items are the discounts and special rates for ‘families’ and ‘partnerships’.  From October we will either need to drop any special rates completely; or define better what is a family / partnership. Is a family defined as people living together? If so we need to include civil, formal & informal, relationships, whether gay or straight.Can we define a family as only those who have ‘official’ partnership – ie Marriage or Civil partnership? 2.      Sex and Gender Reassignment:This is the ‘biggy’. How do we reorganise the club so that all members pay equal rates and have equal rights.There is the ‘get out’ regarding minority groups having special status – but in my mind I’m discounting that initially. My thinking is that if you go down the minority group route then some form of criteria has to be defined, and at some point in the future they may not conform to a minority any more. Better to bite the bullet and sort it out now. Your thoughts welcomed on this – is anyone looking at defining minority groups?Assuming we go down the full route of equality, without using the minority group get out, the areas of concern are;

-          Fees

-          Playing Rights-          Committee Members-          Captaincy-          Dress Code Personally, my preferred option for Fees and Playing Rights would be to have a 5 Day (because we do now); 6 Day and 7 Day Category. The 6 Day would cover Sunday – Friday and cost the same as the current Ladies Fees – maybe with a small increase to cover the loss from any men that join it. By agreement, ladies competitions would be held on a Wednesday and a Sunday and Mens on a Thursday and a Saturday.  For Committee members – we have already opened this up to all anyway. Dress Code is going to be a minefield and a full debate in itself – any ideas welcomed. Captaincy – This could either be done by alternating, either regularly or pro rata to numbers of members, who will be the Captain; or by a change in process in selection. The option to have 2 Captains would be impractical in some ways, as they would have equal standing and rights. Would the Lady want to lead the Golf matches, or indeed the Snooker matches? Who would represent the club at Cheshire Union Dinners? Would the Lady want to host the gentlemen’s evenings – could we even have gentlemen’s evenings? My thoughts would be that a single Captain would be selected by a slightly different process – allowing ladies to be considered. In reality – a majority vote would probably always favour the men. Would this be seen as contravening equality? Phil

Rosemary - Yes we changed the constitution last year to allow all members to have a vote, from any category and either sex. Only Social members are barred from a vote.

What club are you - and how are you getting on with the Act.

 

Phil 

 

Hi Ian, Rosemary etc...

We have had a few meetings lately regarding the Fees element of the ACT, ie Should we make ladies pay the same as men.

We are starting to lean towards continuing to give a discount to ladies, on the basis that they are a minority group.

Has anyone else made decisions on this yet?

 As for Dress Code, we are going to discuss next week, but one of the areas in dispute is the allowing of ladies to have Tee shirts outside skirts or trousers, but men can't !!

 Interested in  any feedback.

 

Phil

 

 

 

Thanks for that Ian, very comprehensive.

 We have come to the same conclusions as yourself, but are just waiting on the Ladies Committee 'sounding out' their members to see if and how many may leave if they are forced to pay the same as men.

Our ladies pay £120 less than me n at present and we are worried that some may leave - taking husbands with them.

Do you think you will be having equal rates for men & women?

 

Phil 

 

 

We are starting to lean towards continuing to give a discount to ladies, on the basis that they are a minority group.

 

I think you have to be careful with this as what sets out what is a 'minority'? Do ginger haired people deserve a discount, do people like me, lefties, deserve a discount as we are in the minority?

Things like this are a minefield. I don't envy the people who have to decide it.

Totally Agree John - it is treading on dangerous ground and the only real way to be sure that we are legal is to have everyone pay the same.

 BUT - there seems to be a lot of disagreement between the EGU, who seem to think that WOmen can be seen as a minority group (NOT because they are women but because their 'section' has far fewer members) and others who say NO you cant do this.

Our worry is suddenly losing a lot of members.

 Anyone for a test case?

 

Phil

Phil,

I agree, the flip side of it is that you may still end up still losing members if they feel discriminated by having to pay more fees & they seek clubs that offer a 1 price fits all.

I think this new Ruling has been over complicated.

It is for Memberships of Clubs. Golf as a game is not included.

If you take this too far it gets stupid. No Gents & Ladies Locker Rooms and Toilets????

TheLyth

 

Not sure how you can get to the stage of "No Gents & Ladies Locker Rooms and Toilets????" David.

The Bill just says that Men & Women have to have equal rights and facilities - if one has it - then the other must.

When it comes to competitions - they can still be separate as mens and ladies - this is quite clear in the Bill so no problems there, nor with separate Tees etc etc.

And Wayne - without wanting to sound pompous - can we keep this thread on the professional side of discussing the Bill itself.

 Phil

 

 

No problem Wayne, and yes I agree, this bill is going to cause chaos across the land.

Ignore him Phil he always goes off topic

Evening karen

I have done a lot of research re the 'ACT' and from what you describe I would think that it is illegal to have different rules for ladies and gents re caddies.

As you rightly say, the Ladies 'section' is just a subset of the club, like we have at ours, and cannot set rules that discriminate in one of the 'protected characteristics' as per the act. I suppose though, thinking about it, if ALL of the ladies agreed then there wouldn't be a problem as it would be choice, but as soon as a single one disagrees then it becomes illegal.

Phil

 

 

 

Karen,

I feel that you are dealing with two different levels here. One is your Ladies Committee imposing a "Condition of Competition" that is included in the Rules of Golf (Appendix 1 - Part C - 3) and Two that under the new Act, all golfers (excluding juniors) should be treated equally.

In the past I have come across some strange Rules within the L.G.U.  For example on a busy 9hole Muni the Ladies insisted that they play a Medal in two balls because that is what the LGU said. This made their rounds slow (following fourballs) and stretched the Starting Times (12 ladies needing 6 times instead of 4). Mens Medals could be played in 4 balls.

My own personal view is that you should be able to have a Caddie if you wish, but I do see why Junior Golf does stop parents from acting as a caddie at times. A great way to get children involved in golf is to have them caddie for MumDad, also gets them off the Computer and out in the fresh air.

TheLyth

There should not be an EQUALITY rule, if you can swing a club and pay the fees TEE OFF. Simple, or am i missing something, if someone (male or female) is looking for an exception, pay more or  move on.

Yes Philip - doing what you say is acceptable.

Hi Phil

Is it correct that some clubs can give discounts to a under represented group, as a means of encouranging new members to that group. Such as the Ladies section. If this is correct can disabled members form a simular group to encourage more disabled members to join. And their is no end of Under represented groups which can be formed to get a discount. Is this some kind of a loop hole in the 2010 equality act.

How we try and bend the rules!  (we being society).  Ian wouldn't have believed this happened until I read your post.

One final point that has opened up some heated discussions, is the fact that rightly if you are a 5 or 6 day member you should only be able to use the practice facilities at the club on the days of your membership, we have experienced 5 day members practicing on sat and sunday afternoons...and then popping out for just a couple of holes practice to finish with...not a full round they claim.

The world has gone bl**dy mad!!

I think Paul was right - The world has gone bl**dy mad!!

Karen it makes me wonder whether this approach with Captain's Day and other competitions is a tactical decision.  I'm not fully up to speed with the legality's of the equality act but I would guess if you have full membership then legally you can't be stopped playing on a particular day as this would be direct discrimintion.  However I'm not sure how the competitions would work I would imagine like with other sports you can still have male only competitions.

I guess until someone takes the legal court approach it's difficult to know until precedents are set.

Good website worthwhile checking out: http://www.levelplayingfield.org.uk

 

 

 

I was talking to some members of a well respected club & they were telling me that women are now allowed to play on the course at the weekends & enter medals etc BUT in their own words "We make sure they feel as uncomfortable as possible"!!!!

Yes which makes you wonder regarding the new Captain's change at this club.

 

Certainly don't sound like clubs I would want to play at.

Karen,

" He has also suggested that he might also stop the ladies playing in the mixed fun competitions that are run throughout the year" 

I may be crazy but how can a MIXED Event not include Ladies? Playing with the girls in a 'Mixed Gruesome' can be more fun than playing in normal Comps.

A Captain can decide that he will not have a 'Ladies' or 'Junior' prize during his day, and because the course is closed for Captains Day (many are) these Sections can't gain access to it.

Good luck with your fight.

TheLyth

Ian, not related to equality but potentially another can of worms.

There is a guy on comes on the forums sometime who used to be a member of a club in I think Milton Keynes.

The course had 2 clubs attached to it as well as allowing pay and play.  I think both clubs were mixed.

I don't know the exact details but with 2 clubs having some form of control and running of the course it ended up being to much hassle, the course busy and ultimately one of the clubs being kicked out.

Ian,

What status is the other 9 holes at Royal Lytham, isn't that the 'Ladies Course'?

In Scotland many Courses have several 'Clubs' attached to them.

TheLyth

Hi all not been on for a while , and then today bombarded with emails about the equality act. In aggrement with an earlier response, THE (GOLF) WORLD HAS GONE MAD. I lived in Surrey seems like a lifetime ago and now and again had a few practice rounds with Laura Davies. There was no equality there me off 1, got properly thrashed every time.  Calm down all!  and if you have a legal prob: or query about the act. GOOGLE it. I am sure everyone at any club will also be amazed how much info is out there. Good luck at your next  agm or ! EGM!  most likely if your clb has not addressed this issue, happy golfing Brian

Hi all not been on for a while , and then today bombarded with emails about the equality act. In aggrement with an earlier response, THE (GOLF) WORLD HAS GONE MAD. I lived in Surrey seems like a lifetime ago and now and again had a few practice rounds with Laura Davies. There was no equality there me off 1, got properly thrashed every time.  Calm down all!  and if you have a legal prob: or query about the act. GOOGLE it. I am sure everyone at any club will also be amazed how much info is out there. Good luck at your next  agm or ! EGM!  most likely if your clb has not addressed this issue, happy golfing Brian

This may help, the 'Golf Club Management Publication from the GCMA (Golf Club Managers Association)' have a few relevant articles:

http://www.golfclubmanagement.net/tag/equality-act/

Michael Shaw: An introduction to the Equality Act

Brian Butler: An overview of the Equality Act

Adrian Houstoun: How the Equality Act affects how you employ staff