rules debate

going on from some previous posts,

which rules should now be updated/removed?

which rules do you agree with/disagree with?

which rules just spout b****x when a simple answer is all thats needed?

I shall start

obviously i hate the rule "penalty for removing leaves from bunkers"!!!!

i know some courses have it as a local rule similar to removing stones but i think it should be mandatory on all courses

p.s dave ley, i now have an industial leaf blower that way i wont be touching the leaves

If the wind blows your ball and it moves as you are about to put. you should be able replace it without penalty. at the moment there is a one shot penalty.

As I've touched on this I would like a rule for free relief from a divot, I have on occassions had to play from deeper divots in the middle of the fairway than some claim relief from animal scrappings ,and there usual in the rough and under trees.

Also  a chunk of mud on the ball and having to play it until you reach the green before cleaning.

Daz, I played a course the other day called Tredegar  & Rhymney it would be ideal for you as they have no bunkers. Funilly enough they have no trees either

The putter one is a bit silly but as it is only a penalty if the wind moves the ball after address then there is a way around it. From what I am told if you don't ground your putter it is not classed as an address therefore if the ball moves you can replace without penalty. I may be way off withthis so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Gary,Lewis, if your ball is moved by wind on the green which hasn't been addressed you play it form where the ball stops no penalty .If for example your ball is blown into a water hazzard and becomes unplayable then it becomes a 1 shot penalty and rule 26.1 then applies.

Lewis , exactly if you haven't ground your club you haven't addressed it. That applies to all shots.

as for been blown into water that has happened and the rules official gave a wrong ruling and allowed the player to replace the ball on the green. As the ruling  was given by the offical no penalty was awarded later when quetioned,

Ivan, extreme ,but would struggle to disagree with you.

removing the ball from the hole prior to removing the flag - why ???????

if you don't it's a two shot penalty - an absolutely stupid rule because what

difference does it make ? 

I think you've got some good points there Ivan.  I think that the general rule should be play it where it lies apart from where it may cause damage to the course - young staked trees and the like - but not where the only penalty is damage to your equipment.  If you're scared of taking a dent out of a club because it's on a cart path then you decide to take a penalty to move it not get it automatically.  This should also apply to greens, no picking and cleaning - if you're ball is interfering with the line of another player then it can be moved sideways but that's it.  In effect the ball is in play when you tee off until it drops in the hole with a penalty if it's touched other than those few exceptions.

Definitely agree with electrical gizmos too, no distance help apart from the club's officially produced course planner - I refute the often proposed argument that a GPS is just an electronic version of a yardage book, it is not.

To true Ivan , I had a guy in a team match who's ball was under a bush along side the cart path.He stood on the a path stretched his arms out and leaned over as far as he could with a driver and addressed the ball. He had no back swing as another branch was in the way and asked for relief for standing on the path ,If I had blown on him he would have fallen over.I asked him if he was taking the P#ss. He then took a drop under penalty. Might have gotten away with that with someone eles.

I do believe you should get relief from dangerous woodies though Ivan!

The Rules (13 to begin with) were put there to aid a FAIR GAME, making it the same for everyone. Then Lawyers got hold of them and closed 'loop-holes', questions were asked and THE DECISION were started.

Would it be fair if Fred, playing in the first group was able to play from a dry fairway, where Jim, playing in the last group found his ball in a foot of water left by a rainstorm. Both balls in the same location?

Answer. NO, so The Casual Water Ruling.

Today a number of DEFINITIONS are missing, so even the Rules Buffs find it hard to come to a definitive answer.

There is no Definition for,

What is a Club-length?

What actually is 'Grounding' during Address?

What needs to be known to be 'Known or vitually certain'?

Each Referee has a guideline for these but no definate answer.

TheLyth

Tim,

Definitely agree with electrical gizmos too, no distance help apart from the club's officially produced course planner - I refute the often proposed argument that a GPS is just an electronic version of a yardage book, it is not.

 Your reasons being?

The one that I would like is similar to Dave Ley's.  When you ball goes into a bunker and some inconsiderate ##### hasn't raked it and you end up sitting in their foothole.  You should be able to lift and pace, not nearer the hole and still within the bunker.  Bloody annoying.

To Colin Stephens,

"removing the ball from the hole prior to removing the flag - why ???????

if you don't it's a two shot penalty - an absolutely stupid rule because what

difference does it make ?"

Which Rule are you thinking of? Once a Ball is holed  (at rest within the circumference of the hole and ALL OF IT IS BELOW the level of the lip of the hole) the hole is finished. Are you thinking of the Rule that is a penalty when you lift out the Flagstick with the Ball resting against it but not below the lip?

TheLyth

Lyth

I think he is referring to the putting and holing out whilst the flagstick is still in

Yes, you can hit the Flag and finishes inches away when if the Flag was not in the hole you would be 60ft away. That is the reason its a penalty.

I think that Colin was/is referring to the practice of pulling the Flagstick and Ball out of the hole in the same movement. Some people say that because the Ball is not 'at rest' in the bottom of the hole then it is not 'HOLED' in that situation.

TheLyth

Floody

a course book lays out standard distances from set tee points, so it's possible for a par 3 to vary 20 or 30 yards depending where the pots are placed on a given day.  The standard lengths are usually set firmly in the tee box so you know theoretical distance give or take what you estimate to the centre of the green and you should go with what you think is the right shot.  So what is the point of using a GPS to obtain that distance when you are already working out wind factors, altitude and position of the pin in your head anyway?  It's not the objection about whether or not it effects speed of play, it's just that it takes away one of the fundamental variables of the game.

Middle of fairway with a measuring wheel Ivan, so along the ground and dog legs are measured following the fairway.

Not that I'm aware of I know skycaddie walk all the course they have mapped but not sure if they measure them with the wheel or by GPS. The one company I have seen wlalking my coures was using some techno stutt not a wheel in site. He spent about just over and hour and a half at my place I find it hard to imagine a thorough job was done in that time imo.

Today, courses are measured using Lasers but still through the axis of any dog-legs. The length is then measured from the Measuring Post to the centre of the Green.

This is why some people can't get their Yardage right.

Hole 145yds, Tee 12ft in front of MP, Pin 12ft onto a 50yds long Green. Tee to Hole = 120yds.

Same hole, Tee level with MP, Pin 12ft from back of Green. Tee to Hole = 166yds. 

In days gone by, they used Chains and the measurement was from 6ft off the very back of the Tee to the centre of the Green. Over the years they tried to get courses to build Tees the same length as the Greens and so when measured Centre to Centre the hole could be played at the same length all the time.

TheLyth

Most courses had themselves measured in the 80's by Laser and awarded a Certificate that stated that the course was a 'Measured Course' for Handicap purposes.

There will be few, if any, not measured this way.

TheLyth

I can play this game faster than anyone who uses all these aids.

Secondly, when watching the pros play a tournament I seem to see a lot of discussion taking place between caddie and player, consultation of notes and sometimes pacing out from one point to another.

After all this has taken place they then proceed to select the club based on all this information and then dump it 30 yards through the green. So it ia a load of old tosh.

Learn to play this game with your eyes and a feel for distance, it is far more rewarding and certainly just as accurate.

One of my regular playing partners wants to know the exaxt yardage for anything under a 100 yards, yet when he knows it he still has not got a clue how to get it close.

Ivan, the problem may well be that the modern breed cannot relate to exactly what a yard is as they have been metrificated (Good word Eh!!).

No matter how well one knows the distances that one hits a certain club it is unlikely that the one is faced with that exact yardage in actual play, so either some has to be taken off or a little put on to produce the desired result. Then of course the speed and direction of the wind will throw another spanner into the works of the GPS, as this little electronic device just does not understand the elements.

I am with Ivan on this, I don't need a GPS or a course plotter to get me round a course, never have and never will.

Stop making me laugh, Ivan. I do realise your capabilities in the writing field and I have never claimed to be a writer myself and I just thought it would be OK to invent a word.

Those who know me tend to just ignore me, those that don't will just have to learn a bit quicker.

Two great words i've learnt today "impecuniosty" and "metricated" I will try and use both these in the snug later, the first one when it's my round!

True up to a point John, but I'm just as comfortable estimating in yards or metres, after all it's only 10% different - the advantage of having to use both systems when the UK officially went metric (or rather SI) between '65 and '71.  I use both and use whichever is convenient.

The point was Chris, and that was pretty definite in my earlier post, that it was nothing to do with the speed of play argument.  It was about playing the conditions in front of you.  Can you honestly admit that if you're faced with a shot of 130 yards you will always use the same club and hit it that distance?  What if there's a cross-wind or head-wind?  What if it's uphill or downhill, or the greens are hard, or it's hot or cold?  What if it's 133 yards.  The truth of it is that you're brain does that for you and the more you train it to estimate distance (which it does pretty accurately anyway) the less you need to rely on artificial aids.  My own personal view is that take something away from the game, but I won't ever disapprove of anyone using one and have even been known to get yardages from them from a user on a completely new course - but I'm just as comfortable not to. 

Cant wait to get to Saunton John yardages mean Jack sh#t when you play links. I'm getting all excited .

Tim,

what ever floats one's boat really. I have mined switched on when playing my home course but only use it as a reference if ever I stray off line. When playing away courses it gives me a starting point to then use the old noggin to take all other factors into consideration.

As we are told on the telly every week the pros love greenside bunkers. Up and down 70% of the time. I too dont like getting to a bunker and seeing my ball in some tits size 10 footjoy print. Why not have these sandy hazards treaded as hazards and do not rake them at all. If you see your ball go in it you think Oh flip! and expect the worst. and know what to expect. The green keeper can rake it every morning before start of play.

Dave CAC handed Geordie.

Sanders,

you mean you aren't aware of those devices already, believe me they exist!

Good point Dave, I seem to recall that raking bunkers is a fairly modern innovation (any clarification?)

Nothing good about getting your ball on the fairway only to find it in a divot.  Simple thing, pick and place, no penalty!

Mud on the ball.  Mark the ball, then clean it and replace it.

Ball in a footprint in a bunker.  lift the ball and rake the bunker, then you playing partner can place the ball in it's original position.  Bunkers should be raked!

Never, ever beating your host on his own course, something that was totally ignored during the SE Qualifier! 

I'll think of a few more along the way!

Russ

"I think the rule should be passed that everyone playing the game should have either a GPS or Laser to speed up play."

That's a ridiculaous statement.  When it's possible to get a complete set up, including shoes and balls, for around £100, why on earth should should there be a requirement to own a £200 device?  You need to think before you post Christopher.

I don't use GPS, does it work on every Golf Course out there?

TheLyth

30 seconds!!! Chris, you are way too slow for me. Assuming you are in a fourball and all of you take the same time and you all shoot a par 4 then that is 8 minutes alone just on shotmaking, then add in the walk of the 400 yards and you will see that you are indeed a slow player, as are your chums.

I only wish one could sprint round in a buggy, but I have always felt that using my buggy does not give me the right to push through every group in front. I also have playing partners as I never play on my own, so my buggy is irrelevant in the general scheme of things. Where it is useful is that I can zip ahead and find my partners balls that may be in a bad spot.

Having said that it is  a well known fact that over the years the game has become slower, probably brought on by watching the Pro's on TV. One of my gang is 19 handicap and he looks both sides of the hole on every putt, this takes an age as one can appreciate but adds nothing to his putting skills.

Because I fly the ball fairly low I find that I do not take on the longer second shots to greens guarded by bunkers, but once inside 140 yards, I take the pin on all the time.

I was told it was a two shot penalty if you removed the flag before the ball - The Lythe has now corrected me - I do see the significance of ensuring the ball drops to the bottom of the cup , that's fine and no I was not talking about putting with the flag still in

I can now gleefully tell my friend who told me this that he's wrong (if the ball has dropped to the bottom of the cup - then it's ok and it doesn't matter which you remove first !)