Mixed feelings

I managed to shoot 88 yesterday equalling my best ever round and got myself a two shot cut.  Very happy about getting the cut but why did it have to happen a week before the South East regional qualifier, that's going to make it even harder to get a decent points tally.  Never mind, hopefully I'll manage an 88 again next week.

hopefully your honesty and positivity will see you through.  Wonder how many would fail to submit good rounds before comps ?

I didn't put in a card just before the South Winchester because it would have meant a 0.1 increase and would have given me an extra shot.  Wouldn't have made an ounce of difference mind......

This is where a system similar to the US handicap system would work.

The UK is very regimented with it's set 0.1 increase and system for reductions.  The US however using an averaging system based on best current rounds.

Imagine that, everyone tracked EVERY single round and the handicap was a reflection of that.  You could potentially introduce some sort of system to include the competition rounds offering more weight given the competitive nature but could this be a way to introduce a fair system ?

 

I strive to put in all rounds I play, unless I majorly blow up during a round.

People may argue that you should enter every single card, however, I have never won a competition on the handicap I hold and therefore do not see myself 'cheating' the system.. I always put in my good cards as I want to challenge myself to maintain the handicap I've been given.

I don't like people who hold quite obviously artificially high handicaps, my 'policy' of not entering poor rounds has quite the opposite effect, and maybe if I did enter all my bad cards the few extra shots gained over time may give me the buffer to compete for competitions..

I know this could open a whole can of worms, but I play golf for fun, I am currently not a member anywhere, and my aim is to get to single figures.. My motivation is to have my handicap as a target, bad rounds would be stepping backwards.

Just my honest view on how I like to play this frustrating but wonderful game!!

I enter all my scores into Golfshake, but only track my qualifying competitions for handicap adjustment. Whether I play +2 or +20 these rounds are not used to calculate my handicap.

Is this right or wrong. I would be interested in seeing other peoples comments.

Mart, you only have one Hcp and that is held at Mapperley the GS one is just for us a bit of fun imo unless you don't have an official one, If you are using the GS hcp for playing purposes I think all scores should be enterered good or bad.

I agree fully Dave, which is why my handicap at the club IS my handicap.

I enter all my scores no matter what the score is.  This gives me my 'True' playing handicap here on GolfShake.

My official handicap at my golf club is 14.4, but this is because I only enter competition scorecards.

Russ

Santo,

Yes I would.  I would have been cheating if I hadn't.  I didn't want anyone to think I was trying to get an advantage and it wouldn't have felt right had I got the extra shot.  Unlike some who demanded their (Welsh) club handicaps were used to get an extra shot and still failed to qualify AGAIN.....

Leyo,

as your a member of 2 clubs, do you have 2 different hcaps?

This is for you Martin as you are so interted in my hcp , keep with the programe Howdido is not used by my club anymore and the last entry was 9/2009.

DateCompetitionScoreOverall
PositionCommentsHandicap
AdjustmentRevised
Handicap31 Jul 10Hosgood Cup38 pts (09)11 -0.68.728 Jul 10wednesday comp33 pts (09)16 0.09.324 Jul 10Centenery Trophy79 - 09 = 7032 0.09.317 Jul 10Stableford36 pts (10)11 -0.29.37 Jun 10Strokeplay round 289 - 09 = 8023 +0.19.56 Jun 10Strokeplay Championship round 183 - 09 = 7423 +0.19.429 May 10Medal Singles84 - 09 = 7566 +0.19.327 Apr 10Handicap Brought Forward-0 0.09.2

 

 

 

John, my hcp is held at Radyr and is the same Hcp I play everywhere and can only be altered by my home club. My cards from my other club would be forwarded to my home club as i'm classed as an away player.

nothing to do with me mate !!!!!!!! Think it was perry ranger who was casting aspertions !!!!

Well I just hope the above put's that to bed and not question my integrity again, and passing the buck springs to mind

Me?  Aspertions?  How very dare you!!!  How can i cast something I can't even spell. 

I was merely making people aware that you are so deperate to qualify, not only are you entering as many comps as possible you're trying to get extra shots too......

ok let me ask you club members who use thier club hcap a question.

if you entered a gs open qualifier and scored 42 points would you then enter the card and get adjusted accordingly or would you then be adamant that you will be playing off your club hcap because that is your official hcap

Think you already know my answer to this question !!!

My club handicap is 27 but I plaid the WM qualifier off my 24 GS handicap. I don't put bad scores on here only ones that I want to check how many putts etc I have taken to try and keep my handicap down.  If I only entered the comp scores from the weekened at my club then I would be playing off 27 and I already had to take bandit cries following half of my shots at the weekend even though I only scored 21 points. Being new to the game I believe I have an artificially high handicapp, but not through cheating just because lack of experience and poor shot selection often lead to some bad scores.

I do think though judging by Mr Millichips 2nd place and secret six win at the weekend he should probably be entering more scores on GS and using an accurate GS handicapp when playig GS events. I would wager the majority of club golfers on here have lower GS handicaps than club handicaps and they will be using these in all GS events.

Gary, there is a big difference in entering ones rounds on Golfshake as opposed to having to adhere to the st4rict regulations regarding competition and handicaps at a well run golf club.

Firstly the back tees must always be used and apart from the SSS there is always a CSS, which makes things tougher.

Most of the game scores entered on this site are from the yellow tees, are friendlies as opposed to being competitive, and do not allow for a CSS.

Martin is a member of a private club and his handicap is controlled by them, not golfshake and at the level he is at then I feel that you really do not understand the game at all because the secret ix was on gross scores and that was always going to favour the low handicap players.

Having seen Martin play a few times, he is usually very consistenet so carding 37 points  on a course where the SSS is one shot lower than the par would be right.

There is one player who has a club handicap 5 strokes higher than his Golfshake handicap.  Not only was this used for the the West Midlands qualifier, it moved him from Division 1 to Division 2.  Given that this player finished around the middle of the field I believe that the club handicap is a true reflection. 

The only option to prevent these concerns is if players with official club handicaps manually update their golfshake handicap to match it.  However, as John quite rightly says, the chances are these will always be higher due to the way they are calculated

Just out of interest, can anyone tell me what the CSS should have been for the comp?  Scores can be found here -> http://www.golfshake.com/golf/view/5871/scores/

If you enter a comp using a different handicap from your official golf club handicap whether it be higher or lower & you sign for that card then according to golf rules you should be disqualified.

Rounds played in social events are no where near the level of difficulty & pressure that are endured in 'proper' medal conditions.

I know plenty of people who can play well within or below their handicap in social rounds but put a card & pencil in their hand on medal day & it's a different story.

Leave me alone floody I agree with the above post,,,,, Gary ur DQ'd

Chris, I could calculate the CSS for the day using a spreadsheet I have, but would need everyones individual hole by hole score.

Without going into great detail, the calculation includes an part that requires to know how many players' adjusted net gross scores are +2 or better from standard scratch of the course. This is then used along with a couple of other percentages to calculate the CSS adj to the SSS.

PM me should you wish to discuss it further.

On the point of Club v Golfshake handicap I mirror my club handicap on golfshake and when I enter any qualifying rounds I manually adjust the SSS of the course to the CSSof the day when clculated by my club. That then gives me the correct adjustment on golfshake.

I only use Golfshake for stats analysis and not for handicap as I am a club member. Thos Golfshakers who are not members quite rightly use it to track their handicaps.

May I also make a point that this site relies on players putting in ALL rounds and not those just "selected" for input. Again this is for people who want to track their handicaps.

I will play with my club handicap at any GS event I play from now on then to avoid being DQ'd. It's only that on threads before peolpe who asked were told to use GS or club which ever is lower.

I also agree with everything John says getting a lower handicap on a sunday with a medal card in your hand playing off the whites is a completley different animal. As well proved by the standard of some of the golf on the day. Playing off the yellows at my course and playing off the whites is another level completly as proven by the 2 shot swing in the SSS and an extra 400 or so yards on the card, and don't get me started on the major's off the blue tees nearly an extra 900 yards on the card from the yellows and an extra 4 shots on the SSS.

I don't agree however with using club handicaps, this clearly then favours club players, it's not just my opinion but the opinion of all you commenting above that people tracking handicaps for social games are going to have handicaps less than that of the people with an official club handicap.

For me the competition should be a level playing field and people entering GS events should be using true GS hancicaps. I was more than happy to use my mine, but I won't make that mistake again.

Gary, a gs handicap can be manipulated, even reset whereas a club handicap is official & nowadays member have to play at least 3 competition rounds a year to keep their handicap active.

** I have removed my own comment as I did not intend to infer people with GS handicaps were inferior as some people have interpretated it. **

I second that floody. The same can be said for club players who neither use nor know of golf shake. Most club players take advantage of playing more than once a week but all their rounds whether good are bad are not tracked for handicap purposes, only those in qualifying competitions. MY philosophy is to play as often as possible become a better golfer, play in asmany QF rounds as possible and get my handicap as low as possible. Not everyone shares my philosophy though and just manipulate handicaps for personal gain.

This is just how the CONGU handicapping system works in the UK for club members. The system however is open to abuse ie someone who plays 2 or 3 times a week but only plays in the required 3 QF comps a year to retain his handicap and is therefore generally considered to be artificially maintaining his handicap.

I consider this situation to be just as bad as someone who enters selective rounds into golfshake, just to keep their handicap as high as possible.

I will point out that this statement does not apply to the majority of people on Golfshake who enter all their rounds or even some of thier rounds. I can only base my opinion on what Golfshake events I have attended and the people I have met at those events. I don't really think I have genuinely questioned anyones Golfshake handicap.

Floody, look at it this way

if i now went to a club and put 3 cards in and got a hcap of say 18, would you then be more willing to play against me under that handicap?

i think not!!!!

not all of us have the time or money due to 1 thing or another to be able to get a club membership, so does this mean because i have a gs hcap it doesnt mean diddly?

and so out comes the club member snobbery again!!!!!!!!!

So would I, I agree club handicaps are much harder to manipulate and are more accurate, but I would like to think due to the community feel on here and the regular poster that attend the events that most of us would all want to be as honest as possible with each other.

For me disadvantging the regular users of the sites who are not club members seems a bit off that's all I'm not having a go at anyone in particular and for someone like Martin who plays off a low handicap anyway the difference is probaly going to be much less than a full shot so is highly unlikley to effect the outcome.

I could have brought my handicap certificate and playing history along and played off 27 but to me it would have felt a bit like cheating. Maybe in a standard open comp/charity day where you don't know the other contestants from adam and almost everyone is cheating wirth there handicaps I would play off as high handicap as I could with out breaking the rules. That was not the case for me at the weekend I'm not saying everyone on here is my friend but due to regular posts etc. you do feel a little bit like you know people on here and I wouldn't want to feel like I'd cheated in anyway.

What I think you are confusing is what you call "Club snobbery" with the failings of the CONGU handicap system inthe UK. As you know handicap adjustments at clubs are determined by the CSS on the day which in turn is calculated using other peoples performance on the day. In my opinion that is WRONG. The USGA handicap system in the USA is fairer, playing you against the course and not other competitors.

To be honest, Bruv I dont think you would get a handicap of 18 if you put three cards into any club at the moment, knowing how you are playing. Maybe 13 at worst. We are not questioning peoples motives for being club members or not.

Questions probably would be asked by other people who know you and your game if that did happen.

The CONGU handicapping system is what it is and until it is changed we have to live with it.

 

As I have said previously club handicaps can be manipulated just as much as Golfshake handicaps.  Each situation is just as bad as the other.

Golf is a sport of integrity and there will always be a minority who abuse this "trust" just for personal gain. There is no need to distrust all because of it.

you have got this wrong martin

my statement has nothing to do with the failings of the hcap system more of floddys statement that he would not play with me beause i havnt got an "official" club handicap

not in so many words but "i wouldnt play with you because you are not a member and dont have an club handicap"

Gary , you shouldn't feel like you are cheating using your club Hcp if you have honestly obtained it.

"I will point out that this statement does not apply to the majority of people on Golfshake who enter all their rounds or even some of thier rounds. I can only base my opinion on what Golfshake events I have attended and the people I have met at those events. I don't really think I have genuinely questioned anyones Golfshake handicap."

I agree, from my experiences of playing with GS hcp holders socially and events have no reason to doubt the vast majority of players.

"I"d rather play in a field of players with club handicaps than gs ones."

Can't agree with this statement , Just look what JP had to witness from an away player/s on his own course recently.

Hcp's can be manipulated as a member or at GS just have found here to be very honest,IMO.

No private member snobbery here!!

Yes but this also goes to my point above. Club handicaps can be manipulated by some just as much as Golfshake ones. When I said I agreed with John I didn't say I disagreed partly with his statement about players with club handicaps. I would have and don't have any problems playing with golfers who don't have club handicaps. I think I have proved this by the number of Golfshake related events I have played in over the years.

What we have to do on Golfshake is get past this sometimes feeling of mistrust and take certain things on face value. It's only when we go to events and these people are tested and once the results are in then maybe questions could be asked.

Again goes to the integrity and motivation of each individual golfer.

To be honest, Bruv I dont think you would get a handicap of 18 if you put three cards into any club at the moment, knowing how you are playing. Maybe 13 at worst.

 probably right but then again i could quite easily get a hcap of 18 then just enter the 3 required comps and keep my hcap at 18 but play many more social games and play to 10/11,

 

i think then i would be called a bandit!!!!

Yes, I agree and that's the point I'm trying to make about Club handicaps can also be manipulated. Again is goes to the individuals motivation for doing so.

this still goes back to my original question

IF YOU SCORED 42 POINTS IN A GS OPEN QUALIFIER, WOULD YOU STILL ARGUE THAT YOU SHOULD PLAY OFF YOUR CLUB HANDICAP IN THE FINAL!!!

if your answer is yes then you are just as bad as someone who keeps thier hcap artificially high

if i was to score 42 points in a gs open qualifier would i then be able to keep my hcap at 11, your answer would be no

imo there is no difference between the 2

Is this hypothetical or is this the case??

Probably get shot at here but, hypothetically, I would still play off club handicap for two reasons.

1. CSS for the day is/has not been calculated for the competition so correct adjustment of handicap cannot be determined.

There are more factors to be considered than just the score.

2. I have and do not abuse the club handicap system.

 

hypothetical dave

but it goes back to previous posts in this thread with regards to what handicap some people play off

take russ middleton for example

I enter all my scores no matter what the score is.  This gives me my 'True' playing handicap here on GolfShake.

My official handicap at my golf club is 14.4, but this is because I only enter competition scorecards.

knowing that russ is playing to 12 would you be happy for him to play of 14.4 (1 more 0.1 card to get to 15), maybe yes, but i also know russ and he wouldnt feel right to win a competion playing off an higher than it should be handicap as i wouldnt either

i agree with martin that this does go into the integrity of each individual

Darren,

My comment wasn't inferring that non club members are inferior so apologies if I upset anyone. I was responding to Gary's comment;

"For me the competition should be a level playing field and people entering GS events should be using true GS hancicaps. I was more than happy to use my mine, but I won't make that mistake again"

As Martin as previously said ALL handicaps could be manipulated if people wanted to but I will not feel as though I am cheating anyone because I use my club handicap as opposed to a GS one just because were playing a GS event. I enter all of the medals, comps & qualifiers at my course so my handicap is as real as it can get.

I also agree with your brother that I don't think you would get an 18 handicap if you entered 3 cards but if you did & I played you in a comp then in my eyes you have done nothing wrong.

As I've said before if you sign for a card with an incorrect handicap it's DQ. Those are the rules. If you start 'bending them' where does it stop?

I think it would only be releveant if played of comp tees , under full rules, and signed by a club member(of any club) with the days CSS and SSS and then submitted to home club Hcp Sec, If off yellows forget it.

my personal opinion is that club handicaps should be used for your club comps

And a golfshake event should carry a gs hcap

Darren,

When I play in a social round at my course I don't keep a score card so this would mean that my GS hcap would probably be higher than my club one which opens a whole can of worms in itself.

Daz,,,no way ! I would not play you for money off 10 let alone 18 get out of here.

My comment wasn't inferring that non club members are inferior so apologies if I upset anyone.

not upset me john, im just causing some healthy debate

I love GS it brings friends and families together ,,,, this is the most Martin and Daz have spoken to each other since Wokefield 2009 !! 

BROTHERLY LOVE EH DAVE,

"There is one player who has a club handicap 5 strokes higher than his Golfshake handicap.  Not only was this used for the the West Midlands qualifier, it moved him from Division 1 to Division 2.  Given that this player finished around the middle of the field I believe that the club handicap is a true reflection"

Chris - I would have been more than happy to be named in the above post. My club handicap is 20.2 yet my golf shake handicap is lower as its based on the last three social rounds that I played in off yellow tees. I finished middle of the field because I played poorly.

As for GS vs club handicap. I would wager that you would not go sub 20 hcp at my home club under strict rules of competitive play. Every shot counts, often played with strangers, and low hcp. - Nothing personal, its just a different environment.

If future GS events are going to be based on GS handicaps, then I will post competition round scores only and not social rounds, thus the hcp will be the same.

No snobbery here, GS is a very useful tool but it is dependent on the scorecards added.

I think we all know what standard we play to and what handicap to declare to ensure that we are not taking advantage. In actual fact I seem to get worse every day and I should probably be nearer 28 than 17, but I do not enter with the thought of winning anymore. I just like to take part.

I know how you feel John. The best ive done in a medal this year is 96 with CSS of 21. Had I added the last three medal cards to GS I would have been playing off 25+.

I'm looking forward to a social round on Saturday!!

I think we need to play as one, David, you do the driving and I will do the rest, then perhaps we might be able to put a reasonable score in.

Last Saturday was a nightmare for me. Every club in my bag went the same distance, about 100 yards.

Ever since I had a few lessons over the last couple of months, my game has gone from bad to worse. I am now conscious of a hooky grip whereas it never bothered me before. I'll be working on that over the winter and hoping for a good 2011.

The problem for you Lewis was really of your own making. If you remember when we played together I said that when you join a club do not be in a hurry to get your handicap, for the reason, once obtained it is extremely difficult to get it down as quick as your improvement is showing, because the system works in decimal and it takes forever to move in any direction.

 

I have played with2 different people playing at 2 different clubs who have been cut through general play so why do only comps count? I appreciate as we don't know CSS etc. we can't have increases but no reason people don't get cut for social games.

Where the system is wrong, Gary is that everyones handicap, though dfferent is made up in comnpletely different ways and therin lies the problem. You are 24 and that handicap should not alow you to even make a par, but of course you do. Supposing you made 8 pars and then had disasters to make up the 24. This makes you a very dangerous opponent, especially in matchplay, which I found to my cost the other week with a 14 hadicapper covering the first nine holes in 1 under par gross.

Those who have played with me will confirm that it is very rare for me to hit a green in regulation figures, so pars are pretty hard to come by, but because I am aware of this I manage my game accordingly to enable me to get round in a reasonable score.

I still believe that handicaps should be solely based on what the number of pars and birdies one can make in a round and count nothing over a bogey.

Personally I think every round should be entered for handicap, no matter from which tees.

 

I think the GS vs Club handicap hasn't got a definitive answer.  To echo John Petit's point above nearly all of us know which is a truer reflection of our ability.  Martin I think is right to play off his club handicap because as he points out it is well maintained by entering lots of comps.  The point about him shooting 42 points in a GS competition is neither here nor there because it would at most reduce his handicap by 1 shot and would be therefore unlikely to affect the result in future comps anyway.

I however would not enter a golfshake competition off my club congu handicap of 26 because on a lot of away courses I would be a complete bandit.  The reason it is higher than my golfshake handicap is due the ridiculous SSS and CSS system.  I have to shoot 2 under my handicap before I get a cut on SSS and the CSS is often set lower because I play at a club with lots of good single figure handicappers.  It is also higher because I only enter a handful of QRs a year as I only play on Mondays and Thursdays.  Mondays there are only senior comps and the medal only falls on a Thursday once a month.  Nearly all the other members I have spoken to at my club report the same experience that they play to below their club handicap on away courses. 

Finally I think it is worth adding that I have played in 5 competions on golfshake and judging from the scores the vast majority of GS members are very honest with their handicaps.

I enter all scores of rounds that I finish. Most of my games I play are as a single player. Even tho I count each shot & do not cheat my Handicap on here is 1.5 better than my current Club Handicap. I enter at Pyrford last year & had real trouble due to being nowhere near as good as I had 3 rounds while in the states that took 2 shots off my H/C I enjoyed my day but I was hamstrung playing off a 12. My club handicap is 16.2 & that is still difficult to reach

I have to agree with some of the comments on this thread regarding the different pressures of social games and comps there is certainly more pressure when playing a competetive round of golf, however I personally don't think that it makes any difference to my score  which tees I play from, it just means that it becomes a slightly different golf course, and I would need to change my club selection, but then I do that every hole I play because they are not all 400 yards the differ from 150 to 500 plus.  Whats the difference from playing a shortish course of the whites and a long course of the yellows? so for me its only comps verses social that is the difference. not which tee you play from. 

My G/S and Club handicaps are pretty similar 20.5 at club and 21.4 for G/S. Its interesting reading the comments about the pressures of competitive golf. I found when i first started playing that i was really quite nervous before a medal but enjoyed and played better in my social rounds. Over the last 6-8 weeks and in my last few competitive rounds i have managed to relax a lot more and concentrate much better in competitions, which has seen me produce some of my best rounds, a reflection that my golf is improving maybe? However I now struggle to play as well in social golf, even if there is money at stake i just dont have the level of concentration that i manage to have in medals, wasting sloppy shots around the green and woeful 3 & sometimes 4 putting.