Provisional Ball Question

What are the rules regarding playing a provisional ball?

The reason I ask is this,

I hit my drive from the tee and my ball faded towards the ditch/bushes.

Not sure if it had gone into the hazard I said I would play a provisional ball.

One of the people I was playing with stated that I could not play a provisional ball.

He said that you could only play a provisional ball if my original ball had gone OOB's or was lost.

Now I've been in this ditch/bushes before and there was every chance that I might not find my ball.

He stated that if I hit another ball from the tee I would have to play with that ball and be three off the tee!

As it happened when I arrived at the spot where I thought my ball was there it was, about three feet from the bushes.

This person played off a four handicap so I assumed that he had previous experience of this so knew what he was talking about.

So what is the correct option?

Russ

Thanks guys, that is what I thought!

Any doubt about finding my ball then take a provisional.

He was adamant that I could only play a provisional ball from the tee if my original ball was OOB's or lost.

The fact that I suspected my original ball had gone into the bushes or ditch (water hazard) made no difference.

The problem I had was if I walked down the fairway and then couldn't find my ball I would have to walk all the way back to the tee to play another ball.  Or could we have agreed where my ball had gone in the hazard/bushes and then dropped one from there?

Russ

So from what Colin has stated this person was indeed correct about me not being able to play a provisional ball.

My ball landed on the fairway and bounced towards the bushes/ditch (which is marked as a lateral water hazard).

Therefore I was not entitled to play a provisional ball, but the problem would be that when I arrived to look for my ball, if I could not find it then I would have to go back to the tee and play another ball!

The sensible option for me would be to play a provisional ball from the tee, then look for my original ball.  If I find my original ball then I proceed from there, but if I cannot find my original ball I use the provisional ball.

Still confused, I'll have to speak to the pro the next time I see him.

Russ

No Russ, you could have played a provisional ball.  Unless you were "vitually certain" that the ball was in the hazard (which means you would take a drop up there) then you can play a provisional. 

The guy who said "you could only play a provisional ball if my original ball had gone OOB's or was lost" is talking rubbish.  That's not a provisional, it's putting another ball into play.  Here is the summary of Rule 27: -

"If, after playing a shot, you think your ball may be lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds you should play a ‘provisional ball’.You must state that it is a provisional ball and play it before you go forward to search for the original ball.

If it transpires that the original ball is lost (other than in a water hazard) or out of bounds, you must continue with the provisional ball, under penalty of one stroke. If the original ball is found in bounds, you must continue play of the hole with it, and must stop play with the provisional ball."

You can also play the mind game.  You say "I'm not certain it's in the hazard, it may be out of bounds" so you can play a provisional.  When you get down there if you can't find it you can then declare you are virtually certain it is in the hazard, pick up your provisional and take a drop.

Colin, I refer you to the rule: -

"your ball may be lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds " and "If it transpires that the original ball is lost (other than in a water hazard) or out of bounds, you must continue with the provisional ball"

If the hazard is next to out of bounds and you are unsure as to whether your ball is in play, out of bounds or in the hazard, you can play a provisional.  If you can clearly see that your ball is neither out of bounds nor in play, you can be "virtually certain" that it is lost in the hazard.  You can, therefore, take a drop in line with the rules for the hazard. 

I also refer you to rule 27.2

"b.When Provisional Ball Becomes Ball in Play

The player may play a provisional ball until he reaches the place where the original ball is likely to be. If he makes a stroke with the provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place, the original ball is lost and the provisional ball becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).

If the original ball is lost outside a water hazard or is out of bounds, the provisional ball becomes the ball in play, under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).

If it is known or virtually certain that the original ball is in a water hazard, the player must proceed in accordance with Rule 26-1."

In other words, even if you think the ball may be in a water hazard, you can still play a provisional and once you are convinced itis indeed lost in the water hazard, you pick up the provisional and take the appropriate action associated with the ball being lost in the hazard

Guys, you are confusing matters.

The guy was almost right.

You can only hit a Provisional Ball when you think your original is OoB or LOST OUTSIDE A WATER HAZARD and at no other time.

If you think your ball may be lost somewhere near a Water Hazard, you can play a Provisional Ball but you can not then claim that your Ball was lost inside the Water Hazard. If after hitting a Provisional Ball you find your Original Ball inside a Water Hazard you can carry on with the Original Ball.

Russ,

If you said "That may be in the Water Hazard or lost in the bushes" the other guy was right and you can't play a Provisional Ball under those thoughts because of you thinking there was a chance the ball was in the Water Hazard. In this case you can't have it both ways.

Also if you hit a Provisional and then find the Original Ball unplayable and the only option is to return to the place you originally hit from, you can't use the Provisional Ball as that shot.

The Rules are complex.

TheLyth

Sorry guys, I may have got it wrong.

I have had a look at The Decisions and came across this:-

27-2a/2.5  Player Plays Provisional Ball in Belief Original Ball Might Be Lost Outside Water Hazard Then Discovers There
Is No Possibility of Its Being Lost Outside Water Hazard

Q. A player's tee shot is struck towards an area of trees, bushes and tall grass. Believing his ball might be lost outside a water hazard, the player announces his intention to play a provisional ball and plays a ball from the tee. When he arrives at the area, he finds that the area in question is wetlands that has been defined as a lateral water hazard and that it is known or virtually certain that his ball is in it. What is the ruling?

A. As the player played the second ball from the tee in the belief that his original ball might be lost outside a water hazard, that ball was a provisional ball. The subsequent discovery that the area in question is in fact a lateral water hazard is irrelevant. Therefore, the player must abandon the provisional ball and proceed under Rule 26-1 — see Rule

It all comes down to how certain you are that the ball was actually lost inside the Water Hazard?

TheLyth

Ah, that's great.  I thought that would be the case but as you say the rules are so complex you never know.  That resolves my question from the other thread

Chris,

The only problem I could see from it is the inclusion of "THEN DISCOVERS THAT THERE IS NO POSSIBILITY OF ITS BEING LOST OUTSIDE WATER HAZARD".

I would like to be able to get clear Rulings without having to refer to The Decisions.

TheLyth

Check my issue on the other thread Colin.  In short, I hooked into the trees (bounced in), played a provisional hoping for a lucky bounce, got down there and found red stakes with a wide ditch and a stream at the bottom (by wide I mean 20-25 yards wide).  I'm certain my ball was in there but didn't know whether I should take the drop there or continue playing the provisional.  The decision from the R&A Lyth posted answers my question in that I should abandon (pick up) my provisional and act in line with the rule 26 (ball lost inside a hazard). 

This is not my interpretation of the rules.  I asked the question because I wanted to make sure if it happened again I knew what to do and did the right thing.  On the occasion in question I did both and played two balls as I was unsure, planning to get a ruling after the game.  As it turned out I scored the same with both so it didn't matter.

With regards to your comment "i am sorry to say that if you play a provisional ball on the basis that you declare your ball may be out of bounds, you only have the option of playing the provisional ball if you do not find your ball and it is therefore declared Lost OOB, and cannot be at any time declared lost in the hazard. in addition, because you have declared your provisional ball due to possibly being OOB, it is completely irrelevant whether your ball is lost in the hazard or not, it can only be interpreted as being lost OOB. You have to find your ball otherwise your prov. ball is the ball in play. ", I suggest you read the decision made by the R&A in the Lyth's post.  They disagree with you and I'm sure you will understand if I take their word over yours. 

With regards to your comment "taking into account that you have to be honest and fair when playing Golf I would say that making any decision that contradicts a previous decision because it suits you, then this is not playing the game in the correct manner", ask anyone who has played me.  I'm sure that they will tell you that I do what is right and fair, as per the rules.

Colin,

Yes, well put sir.

But will you stop confusing me by saying OoB or Lost OoB, it's LOST or OoB and in this case Lost outside a Water Hazard.

The simple way to determine the "Known or Vitually certain" part of the ball being lost inside a Water Hazard is to say "Can I get a true and correct Reference Point in which to proceed under Rule 26-1b or c?" If the answer is No, then it really doesn't matter if the ball was either in or out of the Water Hazard, you are either sitting THREE with the Provisional or your walking back to the original spot to play another.

TheLyth

Colin,

"Once your decision has been made you have to stand by that decision, such as not playing a provisional and then declaring your ball lost after 2 minutes searching, before you turn round to head off back to replay your shot you find your ball, it does not matter, your ball has been declared lost, it is no longer in play.  You have to stand by your earlier decision"

You can not "Declare a ball lost" it is DEEMED LOST. If, as you say, you start walking back to the original spot before the 5minutes are up and your original ball is found, you CAN play it. It is only when you make a stroke at a 'substituted ball' or a 'provisional ball beyond where you think your original ball is located' that the original ball is deemed lost within those 5minutes.

I'm not an expert on the Rules but I do know a lot about them. Oh and yes there are some contradictions within them.

TheLyth

I think we are at cross purposes. 

• In my post at 13:16 on 9 June, I was talking about the situation that Russ found himself in
• In my post at 16:186 on 9 June, I was talking about the situation that I found myself in on a different thread

I'm not suggesting these two are interchangeable, nor am I suggesting that I would pick and choose which decision I would follow.  I now know the ruling for the situation I was in and will follow that ruling in all cases moving forward.  I will always play a provisional ball if I beleive that I may not find my ball (unless I believe I will not find it because it is in a hazard) as it saves time and potentially a long walk back. 

• If I find my original ball in play, I will pick up the provisional
• If I do not find my original ball, or find it and it is OOB, I will play my provisional 
• If I am virtually certain that my original ball has become lost in a hazard I did not know was there (I can see it or it's virtually impossible that it has been lost elsewhere), then I will pick up my provisional and play in line with Rule 26
• If I find my original ball and it is in play but unplayable, I will pick up the provisional and take a drop with the original ball OR return to the original position to replay the shot

Let's get one thing clear.  I play to the rules and do not "interpret" them inconsistently to suit myself.  Where the rules offer me options I may take a different option depending on the situation, but the enforcement of the ruling will remain consistent

Based on the previous threads I find myself a little confused!

could someone answer this one for me?

I hit my tee shot around 240 yards, it  slightly slices down a hill to which I cannot see clearly.  It looks like it may be heading towards a thickly wooded area.

Now from my angle there is no way I can be confident it is either openly in play or deep in the woods, where I may add there would be slim chances of actually finding it.

I played a provisional, one because there were many players behind me (busy day) 2 Impossible to know where my ball could have gone due to contours of the land.

I get up to where I think the ball would be & can't find it, in fact it does look as much as you can humanly judge, it as gone into the thicket. I looked & again could not find my original ball.

Do I continue with my provisonal, taking a one stroke penalty. Or do I drop from the area I am reasonably certain it may have entered the woods? Again with 1 stroke penalty?

Checked the rule book, got totally mangled in the brain!!

thank you to anyone that can shed light on this one.

You are now playing your fourth shot from where your provisional has finished.

As per John correctly says, you take your next shot with your provisional ball as your fourth shot.  You would only take a drop if your ball has been lost inside a hazard (which will be defined by stakes)