Starting with 5th place with 45 points....

Played in my clubs festive stableford competition today. 7:30 shotgun start. Playing in 6 balls. Despite the conditions I played reasonably well and managed to get 40 points. Was chuffed and figured I be somewhere in the prizes.

Sat in the Clubhouse after the round why the committee sorted and checked all the cards. Then the comp secretary stood up to make the announcements. He quietened the room and then said "Starting with 5th place with 45 points." I didn't listen to anymore just got up and walked out the clubhouse.

Apparently the winning score was 49 points.

I'm sick to death of the bandits in this game. The handicap system needs a total overhaul. All the prize winners today are of the position where on a couple of holes they'd receive two or even three strokes. I think receiving a stroke a hole in most occasions is too much. How these people have the nerve to collect prizes and pose about in the clubhouse when they have ludicrous handicaps.

I know how you feel, Chris, but what do you expect when the powers to be have raised the handicaps to 28, done away with the 7/8ths and 3/4 of the old days and generally have lowered the overall standard of play in this country because of it.

Just think that players of these handicaps would not have gotten membership at a private club in the old days. Clubs insisted on a standard both in golf abilities and bearing.

To have won that comp today would require you to shoot under par, gross. Is that really how a handicap should work? of course not. NO player should receive more than one shot a hole. It just makes a mockery of the game and does nothing to encourage those players to get better.

Low Hcp players are a very small percentage of Club Golfers so they are not always catered for. If the winning scores in each Comp is from a Full Entry the Clubs are not bothered if the number of low Hcp entries is decreasing.

Its Catch 22. The more rediculous a winning score is, the less lower Hcp's will enter. The CSS will then cause more lower Hcp's to jump ship because most of the rediculous scores are not included in CSS calculation.

Any Club who don't have "Divisions" in Comps will drive lower Hcp's away.

TheLyth

Quite right, jonny P. If a man shoots 36 when the next best is thirty then he is a bandit as the conditions reflected the scores of the majority. Unless of course you believe that the conditions make no difference.

Stableford was very rarely the formal used at my clubs. Medals and Bogeys were the order of the day. Stableford was just considered a fun format and was never used for handicap purposes for the obvious reason.

Handicap adjustment was in whole numbers, not this new fangled metric system that does not bring the handicaps down fast enough for those doing all the damage at competitions.

SSS should be banned as it is not used in Pro comps, so why should we amateurs have to put up with it. It serves no useful purpose except to keep the low handicappers struggling to get down.

35 points and coming 32nd, that is a joke.

I played last week, 8 of us for a fiver in the pot each at Cams Hall. It was very windy with a bit of rain and my 30 points was good enough to take the money.

Yes, David, that is my next game, weather looks promising although cold. Somehow I do not think 30 points will be enough on Tuesday.

 Given that stableford is not a 'proper' game, even so and regardless of conditions (though I do agree they must play a part in the overall score) there is something wrong when a score is 40% above the par. I would like to know the handicaps of the top 5. And in my opinion it takes away the quality of the win.

Agreed, Patrick, but no matter what the handicaps of the top five, they are all playing off a false one, that's for sure.

The only win in Stableford that can be really classed as satisfying is a win with 36 points.

In our society the winner is docked 3 shots from handicap for the next societies. If they win again they get cut again so bandits are usually found out. I also plyed in a comp as a total beginner aprox hcap was 38 was shotting around 110 at the time. But because i didnt have a hcap I had to play off 24. I think i got about 10 pts.

I agree John, I only wanted to know to back up the point. I bet the majority are 18+.

 David, yes your society handicap committee have the right idea. No one likes to lose shots but people should see this as a positive thing and as John quite rightly states it's a shallow victory.  

 Well put David. Whilst we're on the bandit theme it's interesting to note that no high handicapper who score 40+ pts regularly has anything to say.

The current handicapping system was devised so that the high handicapper can win everything at the expense of the low handicapper.

This does not encourage players to improve their handicap.

Max 24 and then 3/4 handicap, like it used to be.7/8ths for Stableford and no one would ever get more than 1 shot a hole.

I played in the very first gtour event at Staverton Park, was not impressed with the  winning score of 40 pts off three quarters and decided that would be my last  gtour event. Pity, as it looked to be an excellent competition during the season.

If I have not got a reasonable chance of holding my own then I am wasting my time entering these kind of competitions.

JP,

Although I agree with most of your comments, the "winners should not be more than 36pts" has a massive flaw. A Hcp is based on that thing you don't like, SSS and if a course with a par of 72 has a SSS of 68, 40pts is the norm. If we went back to 7/8th with a max Hcp of 24 that norm would only change to 39pts.

An example of this is that if I played on a course where par was 70 and SSS 68, I would target 38pts but if I played a par 70 with a SSS of 72 I would target only 34pts. So which is a better score 38pts or 34pts? they are both the same against par.

TheLyth

Lyth, I can see the point you are attempting to make but stableford is played against par and not the SSS and if I am playing at home I could possibly accept that I could make 38 points but when playing away, there is no provision in the SSS to either raise or lower ones handicap for a particular competition to make the playing field level. This is where the SSS falls down.

 

Jonny P, you know very well that I am a bandit and that is why you love taking my mony.

JP,

I can't understand what you are getting at.

A 450yd par 4 does not play the same as a 300yd par 4, so if a course with several 450 yd'ers will play harder than one with several 300yd'ers and usually the SSS will differ by a few shots.

If my Hcp of 6 was from a SSS 68, I shoot 74's, but play a SSS 72 and I shoot 78. It doesn't matter what the par on each course is, they could both be 70's.

TheLyth

cutting it short because when I go on a theme after a few pints I always get bombed out (which maybe just as well)

"Seniors" over 60's should get a whole shot back after every competitive game (outside their buffer zone of course) ....... do you want to know why then ask me !

Bandits is another issue - either 3 qtr or max of 18 per comp. for all those under 60 would dilute the 'bandit' element considerably and if that criterior is not applicaple  DON'T COMPLAIN ! (maybe to the organisers but not to anybody else !)

 

HI Lyth, perhaps you would like to test that theory out on my Waterloo course at Sherfield Oaks. One hell of a tough SSS 68,

Colin, there is no dispensation for us old farts at all, Ladies get an advantage, yet I am expected to play par 4's and par 5's which I just cannot reach in regulation figures.

I am still waiting for a brave soul to play me level giving me a 275 yard drive on every hole bar the short holes.

Club handicaps are NOT based on SSS but CSS. Only rounds tracked on golfshake are measured on SSS for those who are not club members or enter all rounds into the system.

I play with the CGL soiciety and we last week had the first winter league event which I actually won with 41pts off a hcap 7 (6.8). Am I now considered a bandit ? We played off the yellow forward tees (SSS68) par 71.

Three players actually broke 36 pts (41/39/37) and for the society I calculate the CSS for the day which was actually 71 (SSS +3). Most players received 0.1 back as they didn't make their buffer zone.

I don't agree with the system but we have to operate inside it.

Generally there are players who hold club handicaps who only play in enough "qualifiers" to keep their handicap active under the new CONGU regulations, but play many more times and then their handicaps go unchanged.They go around entering opens and taking the prizes with ridiculous scores which until the system is changed will continue. I think the word we may be looking for is GREED !!!!!!!

In my opinion they are just cheats.

Martin,

Just to Nit-pick, but Hcp's are based on SSS. The scores posted in a comp are worked out and the SSS is adjusted to the CSS for the day. For you to calculate a CSS at +3 almost means the comp was classed as a non-qualifier. You do take Cat 4 out of your calculations?

TheLyth

Yes I do know how to calculate the CSS and YES Cat 4 players are not counted. Yes SSS is adjusted but the final figure used for handicap adj is CSS.As far as I know this CSS is used in all club systems.

Grandma how to suck eggs comes to mind. !!!!!!!!!!

Why would you say it is a non qualifier just because the scoring /conditions on the day are difficult. FYI we had 1 player cat 2 score SSS+2 or better and 1 player in cat 3. All cat 4 scores disregarded.

Rarely has a competition been won at my course with 36+ points, anything over 33 is an outstanding score, for any handicapper. For the winner of Chris' club comp with 49 points, he'd have had to play 13 under his hcap, and 5th place 9 under. Ridiculous.

By the way, had a little chuckle at Colin's earlier thread entitled 'How Do You Win That Comp'? which began, ok, you've got 36 points and 3 holes to go? Maybe once a year I'm in that position!

Paul

The CSS is always 2 or 3 shots over par

Just looking through our fixtures booklets from the last 3 years, we have club competitions every weekend, and only 3 of those are stableford format comps per year.

Martin,

I may have confused you by using the "Non-Qualifier" bit but isn't there no Hcp increases when one of the figures hits a certain number in the calculation of CSS (K?) the list is -1, 0, +1, +2, +3 and No Change.

TheLyth

Just looking through our fixtures booklets from the last 3 years, we have club competitions every weekend, and only 3 of those are stableford format comps per year.

A proper golf club that only plays the mickey mouse format of stableford  3 times a year. just like my old club in Somerset. Medals and Bogeys were the order of the day.

A blob is only two points lost, who knows how many shots were lost though. Assuming the CSS is the same as the par then 36 points will be playing to my handicap even if I have had three blobs, yet in Strokeplay I could be quite a few strokes over my handicap. LIke I said, a mickey mouse format which does nothing to improve the standards of play.

Lyth

A 450yd par 4 does not play the same as a 300yd par 4, so if a course with several 450 yd'ers will play harder than one with several 300yd'ers and usually the SSS will differ by a few shots.

Of course they do not play the same, but that does not mean that the longer hole is any more difficult than the short par four. I know of many short par 4's where par is very difficult.

It seems that the SSS is decided upon by total length of the course, when, in my opinion, the par for every hole sholuld be the target. The Pros do not play to SSS, the courses that are set up easy are the ones they get under par on and the ones that are set up more difficult are the ones they struggle to break par on. The one factor that is con stant is that the course is the same for each competitior, so there is no reason at all why we should not play  to the par of the course for the reason that I have stated many times on this forum.

NO provision is made to either increase or decrease my handicap according to the differences in SSS at my home club to that of the away club. If I play at home I am 16 and if I play away I am 16. So please explain to me how the system works. I would be interested to hear.

I have two courses at my club, one a relatively short 5800 yards, but with only 2 par fives, so not so short as one would imagine when playing it. the SSS is 68 with a par of 69. This is a far more difficult course than our 6500 yard one which has 4 par fives of  around the 560 yard mark with a par of 72 and SSS of 71.

JP,

Both the courses at your 'home' Club have a SSS that is -1 Par and with your present Hcp of 14 means that your target score is 13 over Par or 82 & 85. If you went off and played a Par 72 - SSS 74 then your target score would be 16 over Par or 88. I understand that it is when you visit a Par 70 - SSS 66 course and your target becomes only 10 over Par or an 80 that your real dislike of SSS comes to a head.

The main thing is (you said it yourself) that everyone plays the same course. It doesn't matter what the Par is or what SSS is, it is the same for everyone. It is when we go off visiting other courses that our true ability shows through. I can play to my Hcp on any course and I presume you can too, but many can't.

TheLyth

You can play to your handicap anywhere becacue you are a very good player, so look at any new hole in a completely different way to those of us who do not have your ability. You will read a new course much faster than the rest of us and that is why you are the player you are, not forgetting the player you were.

I am afraid I cannot play to my handicap that easily when I play a new course for the first time, in fact my handicap is probably too low for my current abilities, but I would not like to win by playing off something that would certainly be more comfortable.

Oh how I wish I was 28 handicap hitting it 300 yards - only joking.

I know a lot of 28hcp'ers who hit the ball 300yds........

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........ thats 200yds in length plus 100yds off line.

TheLyth

 

One thing I have noticed at my club in the Roll-up is that they all seem to hit the ball off the tee very consistently and good distance as well, some of our 28 handicappers are quite capable of hitting the distance required to reach greens in regulation, something I cannot do. I am only able to compete as I still possess a reasonable short game.

Lyth you obviously wasnt very good at maths were you!!

 

200yards in length and 100yards off line doesnt make a 300yard drive

 

calculating the hypotenuese of a triangle springs to mind

meaning a drive of 200yards with a 100yard off line will mean a rough calculation of a drive that only travels 223 yards

another example of your poor maths lyth

 

So which is a better score 38pts or 34pts? they are both the same against par.

 

obviously they are not the same against par as you should be fully aware the points stableford system calculates against par 

1pt for bogey 

2pts for par

3pts for birdie

 

18 holes of golf = 36pts to par

 

38pts = 2 under par 

34pts = 2 over par

 

simple

Mr Millichip,

I'll give you the first maths blunder, but have you ever heard someone say "I hit it that far left it finished on the right".

But please don't take So which is a better score 38pts or 34pts? they are both the same against par on its own, put it with the full comment An example of this is that if I played on a course where par was 70 and SSS 68, I would target 38pts but if I played a par 70 with a SSS of 72 I would target only 34pts. So which is a better score 38pts or 34pts? they are both the same against par. which was in answer to JP suggesting that 36pts is the target on every course all the time.

If the origional answer didn't confuse you, this one will.

TheLyth

 

200yards in length and 100yards off line doesnt make a 300yard drive

 

calculating the hypotenuese of a triangle springs to mind

meaning a drive of 200yards with a 100yard off line will mean a rough calculation of a drive that only travels 223 yards

Ha, ha. You're wrong as well Darren!  The ball will travel in an eliptical, decaying arc with 3 degrees of freedom - giving a total distance travelled of around 312 yards assuming a height of 20yds... 

thanks tim

i thought you would know

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but to be fair tim if you look at his statement it says the drive has only gone 200yards and 100 yards off line well to me thats 200yards up the middle of the fairway and 100yrds to the left or right (whichever way) which leads to the triangle equation

 Stableford always brings out the worst in people.

ALL I AM TRYING TO GET ACROSS HERE IS

if you are playing stableford then 38pts IS BETTER than 34 pts

no matter how you target your score as stableford is scored against par NOT SSS

basic maths as put in my previous post

Darren,

Yes, 38pts is better than 34pts in a Stableford Comp, but when someone (JP) is saying that 36pts is the normal score, I am saying that it depends on a courses SSS and not Par what is a normal stableford score. A player can score 38pts, 36pts or 34pts and he is playing to his Hcp. It all depends on the SSS and not the Par.

TheLyth

 

It is unfortunate that the par for the course could be different to the SSS but I can understand that SSS is more important than the Par for any given course because on a par criterior it can be easier to score on one course as opposed to another - I guess it is this that equates the UK handicapping system along with the US of A method which introduces a "slope" rating (i.e. degree of difficulty) of a course into any handicap calculations

I think that if we all understand that the course par is irrellevant and that the SSS is the overiding factor UP FRONT ! regarding ones performance for the day ! then we wouldn't have these discussions on differences but alas I suspect many are just not aware of what this difference really means and to be honest even I didn't realise for some time that when I scored 90 of the yellows on a Par 71 course that off those yellows my real score equated to 92 (per SSS)

It was only seeing how GS calculated my Handicap that that point really hit home to me !

Chris, don't abandon stableford but suggest that the comps alternate between medal and stableford with a prize for the lowest gross score.  Even more important get the competitions put into divisions.  As a high handicapper I would be gald to win division 3 of a comp but it may discourage bandits if they only get to laud it over us lowly brethren,

Ray,

I am afraid its the opposite today.

24hcp max - now 28.

Match-Play 3/4 diff now full.

Stableford 7/8 now full.

Some clubs have put a Max Hcp rule (you have to play off it, not you can't enter) on their major Comps.

TheLyth

 And, don't play them for money.

the problem lies with the clubs and the establishment. Card entry should be actively encouraged outside "official" competition. Active Golfers play 40 - 100 games a year but official Club competitions come around 3 - 6 times a year outside any weekly competitions held by each club but participation in those events is dependant upon availability and for the majority of the Club's members that is not necessarilly an option ! No wonder this keeps coming up 'the old farts' of the establishment need to get their heads out of the sand and appreciate that Golf is no longer a game just for the few tied to 'old hat' history. Someone once told me that 'Your handicap is your responsibility' and so it should be concurrent with the traditions of the game - and so you CONGU old farts need to appreciate that this fine old game is moving on and it is time for you to do so also !

 

What on earth are you on  about, Colin?

I'm puzzled too.

TheLyth

What I think colin is saying is "if you have a social round then you should still put your scorecard in and adjust your handicap, not just scorecards for competitions".

Well done Colin in one swoop you've confused 3 prominant people

don't worry guys I'd had a few and was having a go at handicapping in general if you really want an even playing field play in a nice big Society ! (was really what I meant) 

but thank you Adrian for picking my core arguement and that was the importance of card entry outside Official club competitions 

Colin,

It is not too long ago that Society Hcp's were not recognised at Golf Clubs and places like this, that allows you to calculate a Hcp didn't exist. CONGU has at least helped there.

The main problem with todays system is the calculation of CSS (which GS doesn't have), Cat 4 (21-28hcp) players are not included in the calculation and that is where most of the silly low scores come from. Then the lower Hcp'ers have the problem of the CSS being influenced by the majority of a Field, usually taking it below SSS. It is not the best system by far but we have to play by it. Any change would benefit one section against another, so to aid the low Hcp's the high Hcp's would complain. You can't win.

TheLyth

Whats wrong with playing against par. Keep it simple!

How dare you suggest the most logical thing to do, David.

David and John are of course 'base line correct' in competition if my best score in competitive play is 84 -  then I am going to finish someway down the list against par against other golfers on that day. It is somewhat strange that Golf is so intergrated with this handicap element attached to it  ! but it's there and we all complain because it doesn't seem quite right ????

I love handicap discussions because it's there as part of the game and I have very strong views about what I think creates a level playing field ! (accepting that why is it necessarry to have to do it in the first place - I guess just to make it interesting for everybody ?!) - but in a simple world in accordance with David and John why is it there ? other than in horse racing I cannot think of any other Sport where handicapping is 'part and parcel' of the sport ????

Reading this one over it doesn't quite flow ! I don't really want enquisitive replies to what I am actually talking about again ! - at least I hope not ?  

League Ten-Pin bowling and Snooker also have Hcp's so different levels can compete.

If you did away with Hcp's the low guys will win every time and the high guys will complain. It would just be the other way round then.

A Golf Club will hold a Comp twice a week at the most, but some people play up to seven times a week. Also the better your Hcp gets, the better your knowledge of the Rules gets too. I once saw a Nett 53 (off 24) handed in and when the guy was asked how he did it, he told every shot he hit which with penalties (OOB, Lost Ball etc) added up to 90. I feel a lot of low scores are gained this way by newbies.

TheLyth

Inquisitive Inquisitive Inquisitive Inquisitive

4 attempts no errors !!! ...... impressed Wayne !

and do you know why - cos I cut and pasted your correction ! Ha !

enquisitive is the Welsh version Wayne bit likes Fideo recorder bwt.

Yeh but where in the SOUTH and proud Boyo!! 

I would get rid of your iphone, Ray as it is lying to you. your score today, although very good, would only have got 41 points if marked correctly.

I am not going to bite, jonny, suffice to say that I am correct, unless of course you have a different method of scoring a stableford to me.

I did not play today, but apparently the first division was won with 48 points by one of out own golfshake members and my N v S partner, Darrren Atkinson. Playing off 11 he shot 68, one under par, which is twelve shots under his handicap. Is he a bandit? Under normal circumstances that score would definitely warrant that term, but our club has decided, in its wisdom, to place all the tees on the Ladies tees, so the course is much shorter than normal. Still a great round though.

JP, I bet Darren reached every green regardless of Par having seen him hit the ball on Friday.  Did they massively reduce the SSS or was CSS order of the day ?

 

Jonny P, golfshake calculated him at 42 points http://www.golfshake.com/round/view/751510/

and would guess JP did the simple maths of Ray shooting 5 below his handicap so rough figure would suggest playing to handicap equals 36 plus the 5 below = 41 points ie guesstimate

Ray does the software use British Stableford or US ?

Correct, Darren, it is a simple mathematic calculation and no matter how you mark the card with scores the end result will be the same. Darren was 12 under his handicap, which equates to the 48 points he got.

I am sure jonny is attempting a wind up, I cannot believe that he does not know how to work out a stableford score.

Some of our red tees are pretty far forward which would make some holes within Darrens reach, but the trouble is still there, so not as easy as it would suggest. Only three others managed over 36 points apparently.

Ray, your handicap is 21, not 22.

Just to readjust my calculation based on the above notes he actually had a playing handicap on the day of 22 and not 21. The new handicap is now 21.1 after the 1.2 reduction.

Based on the scorecard stableford points are 20 going out and 22 coming back in

 

Score Card Overview

 

Hole 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 OUT 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 IN TOT SI 7 1 9 5 3 15 13 17 11   8 2 10 6 4 16 14 18 12     Yds 301 417 125 188 452 170 260 265 323 2501 301 417 125 188 452 170 260 265 323 2501 5002 Par 4 4 3 3 5 3 4 4 4 34 4 4 3 3 5 3 4 4 4 34 68 Score 6 4 5 5 6 3 4 4 5 42 5 5 5 4 6 5 3 4 5 42 84

 

Ray great round by the way, sorry to have missed the comment and having got drawn into the scoring systems of golf

"As an extreme example, assuming a par 72 course, a scratch player can have a terrible round, shoot 9 over his handicap and still come in with 36 points. (8 Birdies, 6 Pars, 1 Double Bogie, 3 Tripple Bogies)"

 

Sorry to disagree with you here but using the example you have provided 

8 BIRDIES = 8 UNDER

6 PARS = LEVEL

1 DBL BOGIE = 2 OVER

3 TRIPLE BOGIES = 9 OVER

meaning a total of just 3 over par not 9 over like you have stated

 

 

Also

great round ray and if those are your scores that darren has posted

wow look at the par 3's 9 over for the 6 par 3's

i think you would agree it is certainly an area for you to look at improving

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Jonny P. Your calculations are also flawed because if this pro was playing stableford then once he has scored a double he would pick up. the triple scores are irrelevant as if they had been picked up at a double bogey he would have still been round in level par, which equates to the 36 points he scored.

You have to make up your mind whether or not you are playing medal or stableford. no scores over a nett double bogey are counted, you ought to know that, so my method works 100% of the time. The error with Ray was because I assumed he was 21 handicap and not 22 that is why I made him 41 and Darren made him 42.

You are wrong, jonny, either you are playing medal or stableford, you cannot play both at the same time. They are two completely different forms of scoring, one is for strokes and the other is for points. Once a putt has missed to be a blob that hole is finished.

Your example showed 8 birdies, six pars and four blobs which equates to 36 points and no score can then be calculated for the holes that did not score any points other than a double bogey. four double bogies is 8 overpar which counters your 8 under for the other holes, so in effect he has gone round in his handicap and now that they allow handicap adjustments for stableford comps you will find that no score over a nett double is counted.

Triples and quadruple bogeys are reduced to nett bogeys for handicap purposes.

I sincerely hope that when you play a stableford that you pick the ball up once you cannot score a point. Either you play for points or you play for strokes.

OK, I'm sitting on the fence but I can see both JP's and Jonny P's view. It may have been easier to suggest a scratch player had a blow up, say a 11 on a par 5 (ala Babb yesterday). Zero points scored on that hole but two birdies would equal 36pts and then if the SSS and Par were the same he would have looked like he played to his Hcp (Stab.) and not +4 (Medal) as he actually did.

A course of 5002yds is about a SSS 65, so Ray was about 3under his Hcp (22.2?) so gets "pulled" 3units, 2x's 0.4 & 1 x's 0.3.

TheLyth

 

Lyth, yep that's about right he was 3 under handicap so was cut 3 x 0.4 here on Golfshake from 22.3 to 21.1

Jonny, you are the one being pedantic. It would be very nice to go out and play tomorrow and then come in and  work out, (a) my medal score (b) my stableford score (c) my bogey score and then work out the matchplay result with my playing partner, all in one round.

All of these are different competitions played completely differently from each other, although it appears you play them all the same way.

In case you are not aware, medal play is total strokes whereas stableford is for points and quite often produces a winner who has not completed every hole because of the blob situation. A blob is a nett double bogey and no matter how you score, 36 points will always be playing to ones handicap according to the par.

Medal play is played against the CSS, stableford is played against par and now that handicaps can be adjusted in stableford (Something I completely disagree with) it is usually done by raising the points to take into effect the CSS of the day.

Thank goodness.

David, only the game of golf will be the winner (barf)

I feel guilty about extending this thread more than is appropriate (wasn't too sure about the word neccessarry and not wishing to get any stick from Wayne Santo I changed accordingly !!!)  .....but why exactly John P do you say and now that handicaps can be adjusted in stableford (Something I completely disagree with) is this because you feel Medal should be the only reason for analysing a persons game in the first instance with regard to any kind of handicapping ? which would overrule any aspect regarding 'general play' but moreso perhaps that in fact you do not agree with handicapping in the game of Golf whatsoever ? - I suspect (but I could be wrong) you do !

sorry John but you must explain further your view here !

Good morning, Colin, you had better change it back to 'necessary' or Santo will be giving you stick.

NO need to feel guilty about extending a thread, we are all entitled to our opinions, although I am a little surprised that what I said has not been understood.

My views on the handicapping system is well known to others on this forum, after all, it has been discussed enough times and  we all know, only too well, that it just does not work in bringing everyone across the line together.

The system is biased in favour of the higher handicapper and this has been made worse by increasing the maximum handicaps to 28 as well as giving full allowances in competitions likes stableford.

Golf is a game that was devised to see how many strokes one could get round a cuurse in with holing out everything. Medal play is the only competition that this applies to now, as we have all the other comps where the ball does not necessarily have to finish in the hole, it can be irrelevant (Stableford) or can be given (gimmee in matchplay)

So, if a round is made without holing everything it cannot possible be classed as a round of golf worthy of handicap adjustment and in the older days, would not have been even looked at during the winter months. Handicaps were supposed to be the best one could possibly do under summer conditions.

Everyone knows their true ability and pride alone should ensure that one does not cheat another player by holding a higher handicap than that ability.

I cannot play this game anymore and lately I am no better than a 28 handicapper, but I doubt any of you would wish to play me off that handicap, because I do have the abilities to play a lot better than that some of the time and if you caught me on one of those days then you would certainly be very upset. I have no problem in losing as I have lost more times than I can remember and when, on occasion, I do win, I want it to be without the help of a mickey mouse handicap.

No, Jonny, I don't really care about it at all, but that does not mean that I should not be allowed to make comments on the subject. I would get no satisfcation beating you receiving shots as I would know that it was the shots that made the difference.

You must know that I spent all my early golfing days playing in only scratch competitions, so handicaps never came into my thinkiing, I knew that I had to be the best on the day if I wanted to win.

It just seems that we have gone down the path of allowing all and sundry to enter competitions stating whatever handicap they wish and making a complete mockery of the system that is supposed to allow players of all abilities to compete with one another.

If you can remember the last time we played, in actual fact I did shoot a better gross score than you but there was no satisfaction as I knew that you had played pretty poorly that day, as we all can.

In all the clubs that I have been a member, no one would ever have called the Monthly Medal a shabby competiton, as we used to get over 100 entries every month, likewise the Monthly Spoon. Monthly Stablefords were the fun competition.

When I have paid £45 to enter a competition and had to drive over 100 miles to get to it, I am not expecting  to have to play against a winning score of 40 points off 3/4 handicap.

There really is no point in entering a competition if one does not go there to try and win.

Anyway, jonny, I look forward to playing with you again to witness your rapid acceleration into single figures, something I said your overall game was worth.

Jonny P,

I totally agree with you that its the person and not the hcp that is the problem. A guy starts playing Golf and puts some scores into either a web-site like this or even a Golf Club and is given a Hcp. He then improves but only plays Social Golf and Society Days. He plays in only Fourball Comps so his Hcp isn't questioned and when he is ready enters Open Days and wins £100 for each victory.

It was even worse in the days before CONGU, a guy knew how he was doing and would take a 9, 10 or 11 late in a Medal round in order to play to his Hcp, by then he had already taken the money off his mates. The new CONGU system now takes this into account and it is classed as a Nett double bogey.

There are many guys out there who "hide behind their Hcp" but I also find that in most Clubs a group of similar Hcp'ers will play together and not bother with 'shots'. There is a saying, "Only get your Hcp down by winning things, its not worth it otherwise". Also most Golf Clubs will only adjust a Hcp in Competitions and won't even think about that during the winter.

 

On the other hand there are a number of "Vanity Handicaps" out there, a guy who says he's off 8, but has not entered a single card for Hcp for at least seven years (now said to have an "Inactive Hcp". He struggles to get 32pts and then calls the winners cheats even if they won with 39pts.

TheLyth

I agree, Jonny.

Nothing to talk about anymore, is there?

My Club has Divisions.

A couple of years ago (at my previous Club, Filey GC) I won the 1st Division Medal with a Nett 68. The 4th Division was won with a Nett 59, we both received the same value of Voucher so no problem there. The problem I had with this Comp was that I wasn't pulled. The SSS was 69, but the CSS for the day was adjusted to 68. I was 5.5 at the time and trying (as I am today) to get into Cat 1.

The major Comps do have a Hcp limit on them and the winners name is put on the Honours Boards. Now that is a reward for winning something. In 50yrs time, your name is there for all to see.

TheLyth

I cannot agree that the monthly medal is shabby and not worth winning.  I will never be good enough to play in a scratch competition and the monthly medal at my club will probably be the most difficult test I will face (my last three rounds prove this).  I would be really pleased with winning a monthly medal round and relish the - handicap adjustment that follows.

I dont get players trying to keep a high handicap, my aim at all times is to get mine down.  Its like everything in life I suppose, the cheats seem to do the best!!

They are only cheating themselves, David.

 From Lyth's last post: 

The problem I had with this Comp was that I wasn't pulled. The SSS was 69, but the CSS for the day was adjusted to 68. I was 5.5 at the time and trying (as I am today) to get into Cat 1.

 That's the difference in attitude between the true golfers (playing both in the spirit of the game and the natural aspiration to better themselves) and the serial offenders entering competitions when they know they're playing better than their allocated h'cap.

 I've said it before, we all know who you are and know what you're up to though unfortunately the more reserved of us keep our opinion to ourselves. It's of no real consequence when you're playing in mickey mouse golf societies but I agree with Lyth also re the official club comps...you get your name on the board which does dilute the importance of the competition and brings down the other people on the board that won honourably.

 It is up to clubs to weed this out but in this financial climate clubs don't want to piss people off .

 We also need to change our attitudes. Winning a comp or getting your handicap down: what would you rather do? Which is a better achievement? It's got to be getting your handicap down.

I am not a bandit on here. I struggle to play to 12 but include all rounds completed on Golfshake.

In my society it is a different a matter. I have been in the society since it started & never played better than one score of 37 points when I was an 18I won our last date with 46 points off of 17.

At my club my Handicap is 18.5 & am not willing to play in comps. In 2008 I played 3 comp rounds to get my Handicap reset, it took the best part of 18 hours.

When we played our last society day I played 6 bad shots, most people know I am playing better than 17 but normally play poorly. Even if I had to of played off of 12 I would have scored 41 points.

I know that next time I will struggle to play to my new handicap as it will be more realistic as I lose a stroke just for winning