High end Japanese Golf equipment

Quite a few shakers know about my passion for forged high end  Japanese produced golf gear . I am a bit of a collector of Jap stuff with in excess of 15 sets of irons closer to 20 , and many wedges and putters.

I 've put up a link so everyone can  see where my passion comes from when you see the workmanship and attention to detail  that goes into producing some of the finest clubs available.

Open and click on video

http://www.golftoimpress.com/2009/08/kyoei-zestaim-the-Japanese-art-of-forging-irons/

Absolutely beautiful bits of kit, I'd like to buy some just to look at them.  Just proves that engineering craftsmanship isn't dead.  Interesting that they grind the forged face before finishing - anyone care to come up with a reason why? (probably going to start a thread about this subject soon, so won't let on just yet).

PS Paul.  You are so wrong about British Health and Safety on this one, the Japanese are just as bad as we are when it comes to stuff like that and the processes they are using can be seen at hundreds of small engineering company's all over the country.  It's very similar to the way that some gas turbine blades are made at Rolls Royce, it's a hands on process and you need to feel it to produce that sort of quality.  Mind you, if you saw the way that most big name cast heads are made in China you probably wouldn't want to buy them....  

Still can't sleep Wayne 4:10 am watching golf porn Hmm .... Not sure of the technical answer Tim, I will wait to be enlightened as your Grasshopper....

That film is of the Keoyi Foundry  top notch but not recognised as in the same league as the Miura and Endo foundries. There are some good forging house's in china as I know that's where the Nikes are produced (except the Tour players clubs) and they are superb forged Irons. If you checkout the link below this is golf porn at it's finest if you have short pockets don't look because if tempted they are very expensive you have been warned.

http://www.tourspecgolf.com/gallery/main.php/v/import-irons/

Should be X rated this lot. You tease us Mr Ley and tempt us to buy things we can't justify to the other halves. Are you on commision?

Wayne     's     let you off it was early

Chris you were warned and sadly no commission, also check out putter gallery.

Thats a cracking video Dave...

Really enjoyed it and when I couldnt grasp what was happening up popped the sub-titles to help....

Magis darts......

Robbie you need to press 888

Thanks Dave, fascinating stuff. I always thought it was molten. Judging by the state of the factory (not knocking the craftsmen) the o'heads can't be that high so someones making a killing.

Ah Dave 888....

Of course but also remember the Japanese write backwards

So 888 is actually written 888 and not 888

Sorted.....

Well pointed out Robbie ..........your raving!!

Stu, the clubs that were being made in the film retailed over here for around £1200 to £1400 and

you can generally expect to pay in the region of £700+/set and thats usally 5-pw + import taxs and shipping.Some sets go up to several thousand pounds.

Most top end drivers are around £600+ and handmade putters £1000+ 

Patrick, the overheads I believe are in the Research & Development plus those forging dyes cost upwards of $20,000.00 each some forge houses have one for each head but mostly would have 3 made then alter the hossels. I have seen footage of the Endo forge plant which is totally different in apperrance you could eat off the floor.

Glad you all enjoyed.

Dave

Wow.

Those are works of art and don't deserve to be stuck on the end of a stick and wielded badly. If money were no object I have a set of heads on the mantlepiece just to look at!

Dave, the cost of tooling is not anywhere near $20,000 a die any more, Dave.  That was generally the cost when they had to be made by skilled tool makers, basically carved out by hand.  In this modern computer age even a half-wit like me could have a near finished forging die on my desk in 3 or 4 days for £2,500 - so it makes the mark up even more startling... 

Great video, I now know what 'Before' and 'After' looks like in Japanese!

Cheap labour and low raw material costs makes me wonder why golf clubs aren't £10 each.

Russ

The Japanese aren't cheap labour, Russ they're about the same as us in the UK, they also have much tighter H & S laws.  The materials used aren't cheap now either, since the boom of the Indian and Chinese economies the price of ferrous materials has almost doubled in the last couple of years.  So the mark-up on the high-end stuff is reasonably low, maybe 330% from manufacturer to end-user (cost at the factory door £36, each club sells at £120).

The real pay dirt is in the non-handmade kit, where if the quantity is high enough (say 20,000 units) the actual cost for components is less than a fiver.  So that means that for a set of Titleist AP2's the mark-up is around 1500%, or £70 per club costing £75!

 In my job we do all this analysis however in business the key question and answer:

Q How much do we charge?

A Whatever we can get.

 It's plain for everyone to see that this forged gear is the pinnacle and as such there will always be a market and if the market grows the price (cost not relevant, all things being equal) will also. 

It's like we all know, the game at the end of the day is to sell your products for as much as you can get, but keeping your costs to a minimum.

I remember when Nike brought out the first training shoes for kids that cost £100.  It turns out they were costing something like £3.50 to make.  But even worse was that people bought them in the first place, common sense gone out of the window.

When I was at college we did a sales and marketing thing, and it turns out that if you could sell 1000 items at £10 each why bother selling 2000 items at £5 each!

Only when people stop paying stupid prices for things will the manufacturers start putting a realistic price on their goods.

Russ

True Jonny, but only if you assume that the reason that the clubs are expensive is to pay for that.  The marketing and sponsorship would take only a fraction of the unit price profit, £3m - £4m on £12m (assuming a run of 20,000).  R & D is as expensive as is needed, a lot of the materials technology will be done by the manufacturers and other parts suppliers, innovations probably from materials supplies and various university/science park sources.  That leaves a team of designers using solid modelling software to do the hardware, and that can nearly be automated once a base iron head has been done.  That's the sort of thing I do.  So we're still looking at massive profits...

 Within reason, accounts can reflect the agenda. Job cuts is not an immediate measure of whether a company is making a profit or not (improved manufacturing efficiency and technological innovation in manufacturing, plant relocation etc can result in job cuts), likewise losses do not mean the co is in dire straights, heavy investment in any given period is one of the reasons, not just a drop in sales.

 I think the question is are these worth the price tag. If you think yes then you'll by them. You then need to define worth ir it can mean can I play witout these clubs? if mot then you'll pay also.

Ah Jonny, there's losses and there's losses.  In the wonderful world of creative accounting you can pretty much lose as much as you want.  The ideal world for a large multi-national is to have no expensive employees - bet the job losses were mostly in the states where labour (or labor) is very expensive.  If I could sit in an office and sub-contract all the other services out then then I can drive costs down.  Of course that's a huge over-simplification - but do you know how much of the $120m profit was made by Titleist plc, the Titleist Corp, Titleist Holdings (Bermuda) etc: etc: (f'rinstance).  My company has made a loss every year it's been trading - doesn't mean that I'm broke or that there isn't any cash around, it's just used very efficiently....  

 Tim, well put and a good example.

 I hope we can get back to the golf.

 Ever since I saw this video I've had reflections on whether to get some or not but then there is rthe big downside of getting to know the clubs, sticking with the same shafts or getting different ones. I reckon it was nigh on a year transition from my old clubs to the ones I have now and to be honest I don't know if I'd want to go through it again. I even got the thought that I wouldn't mind if someone nicked my current clubs and then I'd have to get some.

 Change of clubs is a thread in itself.

Yep, sorry for wandering off topic chaps.

I'd love some of those clubs, in the unlikely event of me getting near to a single figure handicap I'd probably get some to treat myself and be able to use them.  Mind you if we got rid of the horse it wouldn't take long to be able to afford them...hmm

 Tim, not wanting to sound like monty python's 4 yorkshiremen sketch but you lucky, lucky astard. I've got to pay for two of the buggers.

 Anyway I'm straying away from the thread.

 The more I look at them the more precision I see. Really, if you don't hit a good shot with these lads you'veonly got your swing to blame...they're so compact, clean lines, clinical...uh uh uh I've just cme.

CT, the thread is about top end Japanese golf equipment, NOT the cheap rubbish manufactured in China that your favourite online store stocks.

The discerning golfer knows the difference.