handicap

can somebody explain the 3/4  handicap system to me  thanks

Stephen,

It basically means that in a competition you are only allowed 3/4's of your playing handicap. If you use your handicap as an example you would only receive 21 shots (28/4*3)

Low handicappers like this as they only lose 1 or 2 shots where high handicappers lose more, as in your example you have lost 7 shots.

Hope this explains it.

John.

They might have done this but that does not make it right. 3/4 handicap stood the test of time for over 100 years, yet now, because of the poorer quality of golfer now in the game they are pandering to them. Why on earth should anyone receive more than a stroke a hole.

Is the 18+ handicap a new thing then John? I agree with the greater popularity of the game there are a lot more casual players with a general lower standard of golf but surely from the advent of the handicapp system people have been allowed 2 shots especially when new to the game. 

I personally don't see a problem with getting 2 shots shots on a hole  (I would say that seen as I get a few of them) afterall this is a game played for enjoyment and going home with 20 points each week is not indusive to building confidence or making for an enjoyable time for new players. If playing in weekly club competitions then we are split into catagories and I know in the major comps at our club then we are usually capped at 18 for full handicapps and 24 for 3/4 handicap comps so we never get more than 18 and a shot a hole anyway so this really does give the emphasis on the better players winning anyway, which I agree in the major competitions is how it should be but I just think we should get a glimmer of hope every now and then at the weekly club comps.

I know that you have been a real good golfer and nature has conspired to bring your handicap up but Just as a matter of intrest John if you ever reached more than 18 would you allow yourself more than a shot a hole?

I will answer your last question first, Gary. There is no way will I be playing this game if I ever needed to receive more than a shot a hole.

Handicaps in the old days were a maximum of 24 and with the three quarter rule no one ever received more than 1 shot per hole. We now have 28 handicaps, why, I don't know.

You must appreciate that full handicap is a very big advantage to those playing off one, because it is easier for the higher handicap to knock 4 or 5 shots of of a round than it is for a single figure handicap player. That is why the 3/4 rule was introduced.

I played the other day with a young man who is a policeman and plays off 23 handicap. On our first hole, a par five, he was five feet short of the green after 2 shots, nett nothing. This made his par five a total length of 33 feet to the pin. I cannot reach this green in three shots.

A handicap is supposed to have all the competitors crossing the line together, but we all know this is never the case, which means, that somewhere down the line everyone is playing to an untrue handicap. This is why the lowest points scorers are barely into the 20's and the bandits are scoring in the 40's.

James,

The present Hcp system is far from fair. A couple of years ago I entered several Nett 68's on a SSS 69 course and my Hcp didn't budge. Why? Because of the number of 15 to 18 Hcp guys shooting 66's & 67's the CSS was set at 68. Now how is that right?

Clubs need revenue, but low Hcp's won't play in Open Comps because they feel they have no chance of winning.

TheLyth

James,

I don't think you have reflected John's thoughts correctly.  Yes his handicap is a true reflection of where he is playing.  His comment about "There is no way will I be playing this game if I ever needed to receive more than a shot a hole" is due to his previous scratch handicap and this would be his indication that it is time to give up the game.   I personnally don't think anyone should get two shots on a par three as even with a lay up you can be on the green for net zero. 

Every sport has cheats in form or another; diving in football, doping in cycling and false handicaps in golf are good examples.  Whilst the 3/4 rule is designed to dilute the effect of this as it means that someone playing with four extra shots will only get three, it will not be effective.  I personally disagree with the 3/4 rule as the players most punished are the honest golfers who need the shots most. 

What frustrates me is that everyone knows who these cheats are but the clubs can't or won't do anything about them.  Dave Ley posted the results of one of his club comps on here a few months back.  A third of the players came in with 40+ points and several came in with 50+.  All those with 50+ were in the 18 to 24 handicap bracket and this is where I feel the problem lies.  As someone's playing ability reaches the 10 to 15 band it's very difficult for them to score better than their handicap, despite them being good players and usually playing close to their handicap.  The only way that they can win club comps is to get extra shots allocated to them to give them extra points.  It then comes down to a simple decision of what is more important - getting your name on the honours board or honesty. 

I think it all comes down to an individuals personal integrity.  I have three signed cards that I could submit that would give me an offical club handicap of 28.  I won't submit them because I don't think they are a true reflection and I feel as if I would be cheating.  Some people would be over the moon at getting an extra 8 shots in club comps but I'm not one of them.  Whilst I would like to get to the point where I stand on the tee and think "I don't get any shots on this hole", I'm not there yet but will keep trying. 

James,

The thing about Golf is that on a given day someone is going to have a great round, sometimes a couple do, so a Nett 6566 on a SSS 69 is normal. It only took 40% of a Field to shoot better than +2 over SSS for the CSS to drop one at the course I was playing then. Nett 68 won the 1st Division (0-12) most times, 66's won the 2nd Division (13-20) and 62's won the 3rd Division (21-28). So why should Cat 1 Hcp's be governed by the scores posted by 13-20 Hcp'ers (Cat 3).

TheLyth

A handicap is supposed to level the playing field  to enable players of differing abilities to have a fair game, NOT to allow an advantage to those of a higher handicap. This is what the current system does and this is why the 3/4 rule was the recognised way of attempting to prevent the ridiculous low scores that higher handicaps can, on occassion, post.

Perhaps the answer lies in everyone playing level and thus encouraging players to improve. The present system does not do this. It is far easier for a higher handicap to knock 4 shots off his score than it is for the scratch man to knock 1 off. If you don't think so then see how hard it is to get from 3 to 2 and then 2 to 1 and then 1 to scratch.

Correct, Martin, and I see no valid reason why it should have been changed.

I do believe that the Ladies still have Hcp's of 36 & 36+, the + meaning that they have yet to post a score equal to their 36 Hcp.

I have played in both the old system and the new one. In times gone by, the maximum you could have was 24 and EVERY shot counted. Then the present system was rolled out, based on Stableford points and giving a maximum Hcp of 28. Now the worst score counting to Hcp each hole is Nett +2. But the worst thing is the CSS which does no favours for the low Hcp's.

At least we can say what our Hcp is and everyone knows what type of Golfer you are. In the US your Hcp is based on a number and it may change from course to course. I may play off 6 at Horsforth GC but then play off say 7 or 8 if I visit Moor Allerton GC, while it goes the opposite way for a Moor Allerton member. Also every time they play it counts towards their Hcp. I put every 18hole score on here so have a Hcp of 1.2, but an Official Hcp of 5.6.

TheLyth

I agree with your comments to a degree Stephen, but not fully.  If it's a major club comp then it would prevent or at least reduce the banditry.  However, most high handicappers are the same as Jamie in that it is inconsistency that causes them to have a high handicap so they are capable of stringing a decent round together occaisionally.  But why should they be excluded from a comp at a club they have paid their dues to or penalised because they are still learning the game? 

Remember when you were learning to play?  'Poor golf shots' are something that cannot be helped and the perpatrator would much rather they didn't happen.  It's like complaining about learner drivers being on the roads.  They need to learn how to drive and the only way to learn is to get out there and do it.  At one point you used to be that person. 

I think that there will always be a split between those with a 17+ handicap and those lower as to the 3/4 rule and maximum handicaps.  For those who are below 17, please remember that not everyone with two shots on a hole is a bandit and most would much rather be playing off your handicap than theirs.

I agree with you on complete beginners playing in comps, but if someone at a club has a handicap of 25 the chances are they have a basic game in place.  I just don't think the honest golfer who is on their way up (or the senior whose game is on the way down) should be punished.  It's hurting the majority because of the actions of the minority. 

I watched a program about a major amateur championship held in the US every year.  You have to be a member of a club with an official handicap to enter.  Anyone scoring under net -2 is immediately investigated and their clubs contacted.  Anyone who believed to be playing off a false handicap is immediately disqualified and banned from any US amateur event for life, but it doesn't stop them.  One guy was filmed arguing that his net -5 off 12 was a fluke.  His club said he had been cut to 8 and the card he had produced was his old one from six months ago.  He said it wasn't his fault they hadn't issued him a new card so his was still valid.  The result; disqualified and lifetime ban. 

I took two sixes on par 3's last night.  Does that make me a bad player?  I don't think so.  I had to take a drop on both of them and three putted awkward greens.  My problem was club selection on a course I hadn't played before (one short into the water, the other long into the bushes behind the green).  I never stand on a hole hoping for more than a par, but I'm sometimes quite happy to walk off with a bogey. 

Chris, I think the reason I seem to get uptight about the higher handicaps is becaue all of them these days seem to have the abilitiy to hit the ball a very long way and I just cannot get it through my head that they are not be able to play the shots that require virtually no power at all.

We have played a few games now and I have told you repeatedly that your swing and shotmaking is of a far higher standard than the handicap you currently possess.

You have the ability to make more pars in a round than I do, just becausue of your superior power. To hang onto you I have to make sure that my short game is at its best but unfortunately that has off days as well.

You know that the par fives at Sherfield are with your range for three shots as you also know I have no chance of hitting them in three. This also applies to quite a few of the par 4's.

Giving anyone 2 shots is like giving them a 450 yard start on a hole. Giving one shot is bad enough when they plonk it on the green in 2 shots.

I believe that the best assessment of ones abilities is how many pars one makes. Everyone should be capable of making a bogey.

So if you can make six pars then you are really a 12 handicap player.

Without checking my card (I will later) I took about 5 pars last night with bogies the most common score.  I had a couple of doubles but I think there were 4 trebles on there too.  As I get a shot on every hole, those trebles come down to a net double (although one of them was on the SI 1 so it comes down to net bogey). 

John, you've said before that technology helps players hit it a long way and I agree.  I'm a fairly strong lad and my long game is reasonable so yes I can hit most par 5's in 3 - for example I was was on the 10th at Donnington Grove (567 yards) with driver, 3 wood, 8 iron last week and last night was through the back of the 1st at Donnington Valley (493 yds) with driver, 3 wood - I parred both.  But golf requires an all-round game and anyone can learn the mechanics of a full swing.  What takes time to learn is finesse, control, consistency and course management.  To get my handicap down, I haven't been working on hitting my driver further, I've been working on shots from 20 yards in (the chipping saved me a couple of times last night).  It doesn't matter if you can get to within 5 yards of the green in three if it takes another four to get it in the hole.  I'd much rather be on in four and take a couple of putts. 

I wouldn't disagree that I should be off 16 or 17, but I still have the odd nightmare hole that kills the card (see 4 trebles above).  The sooner I can wipe those out the sooner I will get my handicap down to my target of 18 by the end of the year.  I've broken 90 a few times so there's no reason why I shouldn't get there. 

I think a fairer approach in larger competitions is to split the handicaps up into divisions. For example:

Division 1 - 0-6

Division 2 - 7-13

Div 3 - 14-20

Div 4 21+

Its not an exact science but our club does something similar which gives you something to aim for and separates the bandits, sorry high hcps!

There are a few low Index par 3's:-

Beverley & East Riding, 4th 187yds SI 7, 16th on same course 235yds SI 6. So a 25Hcp would get two shots on two par 3's on the same course.

TheLyth

James,

Keeping with Chris Hooley's statement, he says a good round for him is low 80's which gives him an even better Nett than 6667.

TheLyth

nett double gross is taken into account.  the 2 over is incorrect, the handicap needs to be applied first hence nett double bogey

Just in case -

http://www.congu.com/template2.asp?pid=50&parent=33&parent2=50

oh and...    golfshake.com isn't a CONGU golf handicap, these are only issued by affiliated clubs using official endorsed software.

the golfshake.com system does follow a very similar calculation though

Well, Chris, as you know I have played both the first and the tenth at Donnington and the two pars you made puts you into the single figure domain, as they are both long and difficult pars.

Not many players start their round with a par at the first at Donnington, a hole I have no chance in reaching in two shots, as to the par five 10th, what can I say. Your par there is pretty impressive, even with your length, as position with the second shot is pretty tight when playing a three wood to the left of the very large tree which controls whether or not you can even see the green for your third. I am impressed and I think you will have to give me shots next time we play. I won't ask for 2 a hole though.

John,

It was the first at Donnington Valley, not Donnington Grove I parred last night (Donnington Grove was closed as they were preparing the greens for today's pro-am).  I was actually in the rough to the right of the oak with my second on Grove's tenth after fading my 3 wood (I usuall draw it).  My 8 iron was blind over the bunkers and left me a putt from three yards on the green to two yards from the back - about 30 yards (should've taken a 7 iron instead).  My birdie putt was the perfect line but stopped three inches short of the hole.  

I'm inconsistent, that's where I still fall down.  If I were consistent John, then I may be giving you shots (only a couple though), not that you ever give me the shots I am due.......   

John,

When you achieved 'scratch', did you feel that you were an elite Golfer?

Am I right in thinking that the best players in the UK would have only been +1 or +2 (like Rodney Foster) at that time, todays top amateurs are +5 or +6 even.

TheLyth

David, to be honest I never gave it a thought that I might be an elite golfer. I do know, however,  that there used to be a publication which listed all the scratch and plus golfers and one year there were only 58 of us in the home countries and the plus golfers seemed to come from Scotland and Ireland.

Michael Bonnallack was only scratch as was R.D.B.M.Shade from Duddingston, Scotland.

I think the main difference then was that it was pretty hard to get and maintain a scratch handicap as any movement was in whole numbers and not point one, as it is today.

I also believe that we were better shotmnakers fromthat era and I come to this conclusion because all of the top players these days are not the most consistent of strikers, their statistics are not that good and seeing 18 greens hit in regulation these days is a rarity, yet I used to manage that fairly regularly when I was a scratch player.

We did not hit the ball as far and we had to putt on greens that are inferior in quality to what the best get to play on now.

One only has to remember Henry Cottons 65 in the 1934 Open Championship at Royal St. Georges to realise that the best then would certainly hold their own with the best now.

You may see it differently, of course, David, as your era was different again.

You are still a fine player and I am jealous.

Steven,

Reading your quote, I think that it is with regard to obtaining a Hcp in the first place. You can't have a Nett score if you don't have a Hcp.

Imagine if a 10hcp  went 6 6 6 to par 4 3 4 and a 24hcp went 8 8 8, would they both be said to go 6 5 6?

TheLyth

Steve, didn't think that.  Was just adding relevant info,  I couldn't tell you how many support emails we get asking this question.

Also to clarify, the links/info I posted were in relation to ongoing handicap changes.

The info you have posted is in relation to the allotment of an handicap and not ongoing.

Sorry, was just trying to post an informative link but think I have misread this post and posted out of context  

You and half of Golfshake Steven! I can and have played to 17 and play to 18 once every six weeks or so. With a bit of consistency, I should be down to thinking "Bugger, I don't get a shot on here" before too long.

I've played with him Steven and brought him down to my level so he's more like 27! 

We're all allowed off-days Darren.  You're just having an off-decade!

Sam, help section in the top navigation links or if you check the footer of the site you will find links to the help section, golf handicap explanation and golf scoring

Regards, Darren.

Sam, treat handicaps and stableford individually.  Without starting another conversation on the topic there are 2 general formats in competitions:

1, Stroke or Medal play - mainly played in club competitions

2, Stableford competitions - adopted pretty much everywhere

I would guess if you enter any competition it will be stableford.

If everyone is honest, then everyone has equal benefit from the system and the player who plays best on the day wins.  I'd still rather be in the second group of the ones above though. 

There's a third category too.  A low handicap golfer who pretends they are a high handicap golfer to cheat the system.  If you are in this category, I don't want to play with you and I doubt there are many people who do. 

I think where some confusion occurs between high handicappers & low handicapper is how they score their rounds.

For instance a low handicapper might take at worse a 6 on a par 4 or a 7 on a par 5 BUT will always finish the hole.

A high handicapper might take 6 shots on a par 4 & still not reach the green & 'pick up' & record a 10 whereas the actual score could have been a lot worse.

I suppose what I'm saying is a low handicapper scores are based on ACTUAL strokes whereas a high handicap might be based on actual & 'blobs.

I think any stableford comp should be based on 3/4 hcap. I'm playing in a club comp on Saturday & this is 2 ball betterball 3/4 hcap.'

It may be my fault, this confusion between Stableford and Handicap because I have stated in numerous places that the Handicap System is based on Stableford. It is.

On most Club systems (computer), you enter a score and it is adjusted into points, your Hcp is taken into account and any ZERO POINTS all count the same, even if you got it with a 7 or a 14. (The rounding down to Nett +2). Then your Hcp is adjusted on those POINTS and not your GROSS SCORE, even in a Medal round.

Stableford is played so much in order to speed up play, once you can't score a point, pick-up. Rather than taking an extra 10mins to complete a hole in 14 or 15 strokes.

TheLyth

I concur with the above inline with the points I was trying to make. 

Don't you get disqualified if you N/R in a strokeplay comp as you have to complete every hole?

Disqualification is correct, Chris, for a No return in a Medal round.

At my club in Somerset any one who put in a NR was not only disqualified but also not eligible to play in the following three monthly medals.

In the Golf Clubs I have been a member at since Computers were introduced (Filey & Horsforth) you are expected to enter your scores for holes completed, so a N/R may have 17 scores entered, or less. I think CONGU state a minimum number before your Hcp can be adjusted. A N/R gets 0.1 back unless, as Kevin hints at, something shows with the scores and a 'Pull' is needed. Such as 40pts with 2 Blobs.

TheLyth

I got 40 points with 3 blobs at Staverton in the GS end of season comp Lyth.  Those blobs stopped me breaking 90 (carded a 91).  I came second. 

Confirming what I know already, Chris.

I did get cut after that round.  Had I been watching my card I would've played the 18th differently and not blobbed it but I thought I needed to go after the hole when I didn't.   

Inconsistency is the bane of my game.  It's partly down to not thinking through my options well enough when I'm in trouble.  If I could get a round in with out the stupidity, I reckon I could go round about 14 over.  All I need is to get rid of the stupidity. 

Medal play is the only true indicator of anyones playing ability.

Stableford is a fun game, which allows a certain freedom to play the game differently but the two can never be combined as they are two separate ways of playing and scoring. Matchplay is different again.

Well, Martin, it is no good saying you are good, if you cannot back it up.

Good Golfers of long standing can prove how good they are/were. Names on Honours Boards and results on Web-sites.

Also another "English" trend, He who shouts loudest.............is right!

TheLyth

 Personslly I don't have any problem with any form of handicap system as long as it is consistent. To me, the problems arise because of the players/bandits who use the system to their advantage. I know this from personal experience because I did it to win a club annual medal when I was 17 (playing off 16, 36 holes with a nett -10 or something like that). I knew what I was doing and it caused a big stink at the time.

 On the other hand, lower handicappers have got to realise that everyone is capable of having a spurt of good golf or scoring. On Monday we played at Willow Valley and one lad in our fourball, Steve, a high handicapper, had 24pts after 9 holes however he did have an exceptional run with the putter, and ended up with 38 pts which is not unreasonable. 

 So to conclude: I think each player should look within themselves (and I know we'd al like a couple of shots leeway) and asses whether their handicap reflects their play because the addage that 'they're only cheating themselves' is bollocks on two levels, 1, those charlatans who adopt this practice don't give a shit what anyone else thinks anyway and 2, they're cheating the better golfer on the day of the trophy. 

Jamie,

Your handicap is based on the best score you can achieve in perfect conditions, not your average.  Anyone can have a good round, if not your handicap would not reduce.  The 'problem' is that a high handicapper shooting 10% inside their handicap gets a much bigger gain than a low handicapper shooting 10% inside their handicap. 

I personally think that golf's uniqueness with the handicap system is good.  It means I can play some of the better golfers on here on a level playing field.  Give me a two set and three game head start against Roger Federer and I bet he would still beat me, but give me my handicap against Tiger Woods on his and I have a chance. 

As long as the system is not abused then everyone should come over the line closely matched.  The West Mids qualifier showed this when almost half of the field came in with between 32 and 35 points with a handicap range from 7 to 28. 

Steven,

The 10% was purely to illustrate a point, nothing more.  As regards consistency being the key, I'm 100% with you on this one and yes my handicap should be lower than it is.  However, when you consider this time last year I was off 27 and started the year off 24, I don't think I am doing too bad. 

Sod off Williams.  At least if you are going to quote me word it correctly.  Tiger could give you your shots and let you only play nine holes and he'd still beat you!   

Most pros are playing off +something so when they go round under par they are actually playing to their handicap.  A gross par round is a bad result for them. 

Point is, golf allows the best players in the world to play against club golfers on a level playing field.  No other sport in the world would allow for that.  As long as the system is not abused, it should be a fair game with the one who plays best on the day taking the spoils. 

I get 28 shots on Tiger then Paul, so I suggest re-reading my post. 

Taking the PGA as an example, If I shoot a 90 I play to my handicap.  Tiger would have to shoot a 62 to half the match!  Even if I shot a 93, which is not unreasonable, he would have to shoot  a 6 under 64 to beat me.  I'm hard pushed to think of 6 holes on the course where you would think he was nailed on for birdie. 

I agree with John P, a true reflection of your REAL handicap is when you start to play Medal format.

As I said in my previous post high hh do record more 'BLOBS' than low hh so even if they score 36 points & think they've played to their handicap in reality they haven't. I'd quite happily take on any hh at medal format off the whites.

Chris, I'd have to agree with Paul about playing TW. Whatever tees you played off he'd have a huge advantage over you. Just think how many times TW can play to his handicap & how many times you can play to yours? Also I'd assume you'd be playing strokeplay? If not then in matchplay TW would only need to win a few holes & then he could quite easily half the others to win.

Why do people have to take things so literal?  Take a look at the numbers rather than the names and you will see the point I am trying to make. 

I was merely trying to illustrate a point as to why the handicap system is in place and how it is supposed to level tthe playing field.  Yes I'd be a bag of rags against Tiger and yes he would more than likely beat me anyway.  Although with the way he is playing at the moment I might be in with a chance........

If you take a close look  at the Hcp system, you will see that Hcp's are set artificially LOW, but as they come down they are more realistic to the players actual ability.

For a man, the highest Hcp he can have is 28, yet in setting that Hcp he could actually be anything over 36 shots above SSS. Then as you enter scores, each hole is never scored above Nett +2, which could equal SSS + 64.

Then when you are a member of a Club, your Hcp is adjusted against CSS and not SSS and in working out what the CSS is for that day, all Cat 4 (21 - 28 Hcp) are disregarded.

The real cheats out there are the ones that pick "Non Qualifiers" and Fourball Comps to play in so that their Hcp is not effected by any of their scores. They then enter Fourball Open Days at other courses and take the prizes. They usually can be found playing for money too.

What you also find at most Clubs is that the Cat 1 (0 - 5Hcp) players tend to play together and play off the stick-end amonst themselves.

TheLyth

I look at my stats (over 2 years) to see what my average par rate is per round and it's 4.01. I enter 2 round per week religiously on Golfshake !

18 - 4 = 14 ........ and so I accept that I am a 14 handicap Golfer as opposed to 18 on GS and I have won a few Senior competitions playing off my Club handicap which is 20.

Why the difference quite simply inconsistency and that ability to play to my potential week in week out. But every now and then one in twenty games perhaps I play to that potential.  If that happens to be on 'competition day' I don't see myself as a bandit or embarrassed by winning under those circumstances if the rules were such I had to play off 14 (because my average par rate was generally known ) then fine 

Many Golf Club hold their Comps in Divisions so you are competing against players of similar Hcp. Then when the Big Comps come around where there is only one winner, a maximum Hcp of 18 is instigated. That can be, anyone over 18, plays off 18 or only 18 and under can enter. That depends on the Club.

I remember one Club holding a Medal as a qualifier for a National Tournament with no Hcp limit, yet the Qualifier would have had to play off 14 or under later.

TheLyth

ps from my last note you can see why 3 quarter handicaping is so popular  ! 

that is a problem (admittedly mine) that I don't enter enough club competitions. We have a band of players within the club , on average a dozen , who play regularly against each other and all our cards get entered on to GS

I would also not be happy if I had a handicap that is 6 shots more than I can play to but whoah a minute ! in accord with the majority of golfers I don't regard myself in that category i.e. 6 shots potential against Club yes but I bet I am far from being alone on that one !

I should perhaps start a new thread here i.e. What is your potential i.e. your average par rate per round taken away from 18 as opposed to your club handicap (or GS for that matter) I bet that there are many like me - come on you lot out there own up lets see your stats ! 

SteveW - your OK yours is 12 on this calculation ! (hCap 11.3 on Golfshake)

unless of course your Club handicap is 18 ?

getting bombed out here

Matt

You have played 38 round of Golf on Golfshake

You have achieved 79 pars or better

79 divided by 38 equates to 2.1 pars or better per round

18 – 2.1 = 15.9 as a potential handicap (your GS handicap is 22 so welcome to the gang my friend)

Steven

I don't really wish to pry and your stats are more in keeping with a consistent golfer (unlike myself) - but do you have a club handicap ? and if you do what is it ?

Steven,

I don't understand what you are getting at here?

"This is where stableford handicapping helps you out whereas stroke-play max gross +2 would probs see you cut.............................."

There is only one Hcp system in use for all types of Competition. It is based on Stableford, where the highest score on a single hole can be NETT + 2 or ZERO points in Stableford. This was done to stop players purposely taking a big score near the end of a round in order to play within their Hcp range.

When you first enter Cards for Hcp purpose CONGU say that all scores above Gross +2 should be treated as +2.

Also stableford points are awarded against PAR but total points are against SSS, so on a par 70, SSS 66 course, 40pts would be the score everyone should do if they had the right Hcp.

TheLyth

Matt

the theory of this calculation is that a round of golf is (normally) over 18 holes

so if you had 3 pars (and you may treat a birdie as a par) then you should at best have 15 holes with which to bogey which in simple terms gives you a potential best handicap of 15

of course we all know that we all have double bogey or triple bogeys on top but the analysis is simply looking in very simple terms as to your very best potential

It's actually in my experience a 'figure' quite often used in conversation regarding handicaps and Mr Pettit has also brought it up !

glad to see i'm not the only one who's potential best is 6 shots better than his club handicap

i wonder who else is now going to admit it ?

OK, I have 141 rounds currently on Golfshake (the wife's right, I do play too much!).  I have 390 holes where I have taken par or better.  So going by the Stephens Golfing Potential Calcluation™, my handicap should be 18 - (390 ÷ 141) = 15.2

I've got to be honest, I think that's a fair reflection of where I should be as opposed to where I am.  All I need to do now is play to it!  Does a difference of 4.5 (5 shots) still get me into your club Colin?

I have 6 rounds on here not many I know but I have made 19 pars so 19/6 = 3.17 so an acheivable handicap of 18-3.17 = 15 that 12 shots less than my club handicap of 27.

To be honest my handicap at the club is out of date as I have not managed to play enough in the comps on a weekend and the last 6 rounds I have played and logged on here are pretty much hit and miss so I would say I should be around 23 but I definitly hit the ball alot better than my handicap suggest if only I could control my head and stop having a half hour spell of topping everything 10 yards down the fairway.

I have not played a "Qualifying Comp" this year so some interesting figures here.

Official Hcp = 5.6, GS Hcp = 0.9 (started at 5.6).

Under this calculation:-

30 rounds (540holes), 331 pars, 90 birdies and 3 eagles = 424.

424/30 = 14.13, = 3.86 off 6hcp = 2.1.

So I am 3.5 better than my Official Hcp, but 1.2 worse than my GS Hcp.

TheLyth

Mine works out 5.6 pars or better a round, so I should be 12.3. About right on ability but unfortunately I have a few disasters each round these days.

Today I had five pars and one birdie but only managed 38 points. Five double bogeys wrecked a good round.

My average over all 88 rounds is 18-2.2=15.8 but over the last 5 rounds is 18-5.2=12.8. In my last round I had 7 pars and 7 bogies.  Bound to fall apart soon.

Very interesting thread and some very valid points.  The calc above should though be taken only over the last 5 or 10 rounds though surely to be an accurate current assessment? Taking over the full history (which I appreciate is easy to get the stats for) gives a diluted assessment?

EDIT-7 Birdies should have been bogies - I'm not that good!

Hmmm, here's my last 10 ->   18 - 4.8 = 13.2

And here's my last 5 ->   18 - 4.4 = 13.6

That doesn't take into account birdies (I've counted them as pars).  So should I be playing off 13ish?  I don't think so, but it does make me realise how many wasted shots I must be leaving on the course and that I appear to be getting worse rather then better! 

You want to do your eclectic score for a course

Only played the Belfry PGA 5 times but eclectic of 82 and worse of 140 !!

Yep go to the score tracker and access a link called 'old report' and from there the eclectic score

My eclectic best on the PGA is 5 or 6 under!  Eat your heart out Tiger! (worst is probably about 170 though ::shh:: )

The eclectic score report is a good-un.  Only problem for me is I play so many different courses ther are few courses I can do an eclectic report on.

Only way to settle this is for Perryranger & Mr Williams to play stroke play at the PGA, no gimmies, no "I'll drop one here", no "I'll put a 10 down" you carry on until the ball is in the hole & then see what your score is.

The wheels will definitely fall off if you're using that electric trolley .  Leaving in 20 mins, should be there for around 2:30

Second best for Chris are we Paul ,Tiger was busy eh ???

I think if you do play a few rounds of stroke play this will DEFFO give you an indication of your true hcap.

Chris, when you got your 3 cards when playing on the Derby did you have to play medal format?? If yes I'd say whatever you got this is a true indication, especially as the Derby is an easier course.

Ha, I believe Tiger is at Sherfield having is a'#e Kicked  by ooh,arhh another PAR

Jonny P,

Most of the guys in Cat 1 are Competitive Golfers and want to play in Big Comps and 0.1 can mean a lot to them. I personally have an Official Hcp of 5.6 (Cat2) but would like to get into Cat1 which is actually a score of -1 on CSS away. I feel done by if I finish in the top 5 of Division One with a Nett68 on a SSS69 course only to find the CSS is 68 because of the larger numbers of Golfers in Cat3.

Cat1 Hcp's are judged on a) Number of entries from Cat2 & 3, b) Number of scores of Nett SSS+2 by Cats1, 2, & 3 and c) Their own score.

So what I am saying is that Cat1 Hcp is not judged on the individuals ability against SSS, it is judged on the number of other players in the Comp and what scores they return.

TheLyth

Jonny P,

The main reason I don't like the present CSS system is because it is not even across the playingfield.

Take a course that is a Par70 SSS69 and the days CSS is 68.

Jim off (1) 0.5 posts a Gross 70 Nett 69 and nothing is changed.

Joe off (scr) 0.4 also post a Gross 70 Nett 70 and goes up to 0.5 and ONE Hcp.

James off (1) 1.4 posts a Gross 71 Nett 70 and goes to (2) 1.5.

But John off (20) 19.5 posts a Gross 91 Nett 71 and NOTHING happens.

So a Nett 71 sees one player with no change to his Hcp while two others go up ONE SHOT with Nett 70's.

TheLyth

Well, Johhny P, you may well see no reason for complaint,but the handicap system still throws up results that are just plain ridiculous.

Our Mondays Roll-up, I learned today, was won by a 27 handicap chap with 50 points. Please enlighten me how we can prevent this kind of scoring.

Congratulations, by the way, for your great reduction in handicap, well deserved.

A better system would be no handicap whatsoever, best man wins.

Might even encourage players to make an effort to improve.

It would have no bearing on ones friendly games as you would handicap yourselves.

John,

I hope your not going to let this chap play again!! You might as well get him to wear a mask & mug you on the car park!

Anyone can play in the roll-up, John, but it seems to me that every week we have someone shooting the lights out. The previous week we had a 13 year old playing off 25 scoring 49 points.

Giving it a miss tomorrow, going to play a friendly fourball instead for 1 penny a yard.

You will always get an unusually low score from 21-28hcp's (Cat4) and that is why they are excluded from CSS Calculation, but 50pts is ridiculous and should see the lad drop to 21hcp.

TheLyth

Lynford Christie got DQ'd for a "False Start" which actually wasn't. He was deemed to have had 'too quick a reaction so MUST have gone early'. Take the same thinking and any score under a set number (-10 or 46pts say) will be investigated.

The big problem is that these scores are posted outside Official Comps and many Hcp Committees will not recognise them. And these guys know that.

TheLyth

Jamie,

In Stableford, 36pts is level par and then depending on SSS or CSS other number of points are OK. On a course with a par of 70 and a SSS/CSS of 66, 40pts is playing to your Hcp. As would only getting 34pts on a par72 SSS/CSS 74.

TheLyth

If I remember correctly, John told me that the young lad who scored 50pts is much better than a 25 handicap.  Everyone at the club knows and the lad does too and has asked to be cut but the club won't cut him.  As he was playing in the roll up everyone had to play off their official club handicap so in this case it was the fault of the club, not the player.

Am I wide of the mark with that statement John?  My memory is fading rapidly wih age.

Jamie,

You have got the first part, 2pts for a Nett par on every hole.

That equates to 36pts for 18pars, Level Par. Then add or subtract a point for each stroke difference between PAR & SSS for the course and that is the score that will equate to you playing to your Hcp.

50pts is +14, so if the Par & SSS are the same, 50pts = 14shots better than Hcp.

TheLyth

I witnessed what would have been 54pts many years ago, but we thought it was a one-off.

The four Muni's in Leeds are a Federation and played a Season Opener each year (18hole Medal) on a rota. This particular year it came to Roundhay. A score of 72 (+2) Gross was posted by a young man 24hcp, Nett 48. He was going to be linched from the old Elm tree by the 18th green.

He was very apologetic and said that he had been getting lessons and practicing all winter and this was the first time he had played in a Comp that season. 12 months later he had moved to a private club and was playing for Yorkshire with a Hcp of scratch, so it does happen legitimately, but not very often.

TheLyth

Expanding on John Pettitt thoughts, it would very interesting to see what would happen if a Comp was held with NO Hcp allowance. Each Cat would have its own individual Comp. I know that all Cat1 players would be up for it because most play amonst themselves that way, but what about the higher Hcps?

TheLyth

Jonny,

Arh, Number Crunching, I like that.

1* off-line at 50yds is nothing compared to 1* off-line at 300yds.

But I do know what you are saying. A Scratch Golfer shoots 64 and gets a "well played".

TheLyth

Not that mnuch wide of the mark, Chris, the young lad scored 49 points the week before and was duly cut to19 for the roll-up only. He actually shot 39 points today off 19, so he is still performing well.

The 50 pointer was an unknown to me, but a large field meant a lot of money.

We did not join the roll-up today because of this and had a rather unusual match. I partnered Darren against Jodi and Ron (The 6 handicap man). We played a texas scramble, just so that I could get the opportunity to play the course off of some decent drives for a change.

We shot gross 69 which was more than good enough to take the money and also backed up my claim that I would be single figures if only I could drive like you, Chris.