Which Driver Loft?

If you were to choose a Ping G10 driver for a high handicapper, which shaft and which loft would you recommend/ approximate as being best bet to get to grips with.  Any comments regarding the shaft in terms of Regular or Stiff Flex and kick points would be gratefully received also.

Ping

UST V2

Graphalloy Red

Thanks

A

Hi Adam,

If i were to choose a ping G10 or any new driver for that matter, i would go and get a fitting (see John P's post) as the Loft and shaft flex is down to your own personal swing (speed, stance etc) so what would be good for me would be crap for other people.

However for most beginers/high handicappers a 10.5* with a reg shaft would most prob be the better option. the loft makes sure your get the ball in the air and as most beginners have a slower swing speed the reg shaft would suit this. Regarding Kick points or tip flexes this can only really be advised with a fitting.

Cheers

danny

It has nothing at all to do with your handicap, Adam, as that in no way reflects the power of your swing. Seeing as the stiff shaft did not agree with you then perhaps a regular shaft would be the answer.

In my case, because of my age, I have just purchased the G10 with a soft/regular shaft and using it for the first time today I found it easer to hit and was even longer, not much, but enough to make a difference.

Adam,

Get yourself to American Golf or similar and explain what has happened (don't mention you won't be getting the club from there!).  Tell them that your insurance company has told you they want you to replace your G5 with a G10 and you want to make sure that the loft, lie and shaft are correct.  They will help you identify the right options and, assuming they have the variances in stock, let you try the right one. 

The fact that you know the club type you will be getting will make things much easier. 

Does'nt matter what loft you get, just get a blue one, they work.......

"Does'nt matter what loft you get, just get a blue one, they work......."

Sounds like an advert for a porno movie!!   

Sorry to go off topic Adam, but Christophers reply was written by a golfer, not an engineer.  A convincing and reasoned piece of corporate techno babble.  Not got time to explain at the moment, but suffice to say that a shaft in itself does not, and cannot induce spin.  The only thing it does contribute to is the club head speed and strike angle of the face and no matter what shaft you have fitted, if you don't hit it right it won't fly right.  

Is this going to turn into some sort of engineering fight club about the principles of "something I dont understand" and the co-efficient of something or other!!!?

Hmm, thought I'd stir a bit more up than this!

Jon, not difficult to explain really.  You assume that you hit every ball exactly the same?  Can't be done.  There is also a bit of confusion between swing speed and club head speed, you say that your swing speed is between 95 and 98 mph, what was it exactly when you hit all three?  That 3 mph equates to the head moving at 1.3 metres per second, quite a variance in the potential force generated at impact.  And that's just the major variable - when you take into account the actual angle between face and ball (in all planes), the part of the face that strikes and it's coefficient of friction, the state of the ball surface (and position of impact) and material.  These all contribute to the spin rate of the ball and all of them are factors limited to effects of the club head, not the shaft.  The only factor of the shaft that will effect the spin rate (indirectly) is the torque reaction in the shaft, but then again this only alters the angle of attack of the club head and is a result of trying to hit the ball too hard with the incorrect flex.

Sorry Luke.

I know what you're getting at Jon, but you still ain't right.  The only way to be sure of your figures is if you also measured the launch angle, launch speed and spin angle axis of the ball.  Basic physics would suggest that a known mass striking another known mass at known speeds and angles (in all planes) will result in a calculable flight.  Any variance from that will be up to the outside factors such as the balls elastic resilience, surface finish and the heads mass and coeffiecient of friction as well as atmospheric conditions.

Ponder the following scenario if you will.  You have a club with 0° loft, and can consistently strike the ball at mid axis every time.  Assuming that the ball is struck in exactly the same position every time (no opening or closing the club face, no forward or rearward stance etc then the ball will fly straight with no spin, parallel to the plane in which it was hit and travel, at tee height until the drag and loss of momentum degrade to the point where it hits the deck.  The only factor that is changeable is the force at which it is struck which determines the distance travelled.  This is, as Christopher mentioned earlier, is where the engine of the shaft comes in.  It has kinetic energy from the swing as well as potential energy from the flex unwind.  Any mishit (or angling in any plane) will result in spin, but it has nothing to do with the shaft!

Do you reckon Luke has lost the will to live yet?  

Ooooooo, I feel like I'm back in my A levels. 

I'd just like to point out that as an aerospace engineer with a a PGD (in engineering) I'm staying well out of this one!!!!

Chicken

OK Tim, you asked for it. 

You are correct in your assumptions with the scenario you have defined.  In this case, the effect of the shaft would be negligible.  HOWEVER, the shaft will have an effect in the real world as follows. 

Assuming the same ball is used throughout, along with a standard 6 iron with a text book swing along the line of play striking down on the rear of the ball as per accepted standard. 

With an infinitely stiff shaft and a constant swing speed, the club head will strike the ball at a given speed causing it to compress against both the turf and the clubface.  Whilst the ball is compressing the club will continue in its downward arc, exerting a rotational force on the back of the ball.  After reaching its maximum point of compression (derived from the elasticity of the ball and the force at which it was hit) the ball will begin to rebound to its round shape, react against the clubface and have a forward momentum imparted upon it, both from the rebound and the reaction to the club face impact.  As the clubface is still moving downwards in relation to the ball, a rotational moment will continue to be exerted on the ball until it leaves the clubface.  This rotational moment is backspin and is directly proportional to the amount of time the ball is in contact with the clubface. 

With me so far Luke?

Using the same assumptions as above with the exception that the shaft now has a bending coefficient and is tuned to the speed of the swing so that the point of maximum forward momentum (uncoil) is as the bottom of the swing.  Now as the clubface strikes the ball it is accelerating due to the uncoil.  This means that the ball is struck harder than with the infinitely stiff shaft (F=ma) and is therefore compressed further.  This means that the ball is in contact with the clubface for longer and therefore more backspin is imparted.  The constraining condition is if the ball meets its elastic limit then no matter how hard you hit it you will not impart any additional backspin. 

Just so you know, if the swing is not along the plane you will also impart side spin (out-to-in will induce the front of the ball to spin towards the toe and slice, in-to-out will induce the front of the ball to spin towards the heel and draw).  More about this in a moment. 

Now for the aerodynamics.

The ball will have a drag coefficient that remains constant.  If the ball is flying through the air without spinning, the drag on the ball at the top and bottom is equal (subject to calm conditions and a clean, dry ball).  However, if the ball has backspin imparted, the effective forward speed of the bottom of the ball is lower than that of the top of the ball.  This is because the top of the ball is moving backwards and bottom of the ball is moving forwards in relation to the direction of flight.  Given that pressure is inversely proportional to velocity, the pressure on the top of the ball is lower than at the bottom of the ball inducing lift (this is how an aircraft wing works).  Therefore, the higher the backspin the higher the ball flight.  Note that the same rules apply to side spin and this is why the ball arcs in a draw or fade. 

To conclude

1.       Shaft flex and hence kick point can effect the spin imparted on the ball

2.       The harder you hit it, the more spin you will get (within limits)

3.       The softer the ball, the more spin you will get (within limits)

4.       Backspin is necessary to get a high ball flight, but too much backspin and the ball will balloon up and lose distance 

If the shaft is not 'tuned' to your swing speed, it will either kick too early or too late and not have the optimal acceleration into the ball.  Too soft and it will lag behind your swing and kick after the ball is struck (can also cause a slice as the face will not be closed in time).  Too stiff and it will kick too soon and be decelerating when the ball is struck.   This is why getting fitted for the fight shaft for your swing style and speed is crucial. 

I thank you

Thanks guys, very convincing.  Unfortunately Chris, you've just proved my point.  Head speed is the key - and the kick point variation alters the face angle thus altering the spin.

Maybe we should move this, s suggested, to the geek part of the forum!

All the pros have their shafts 'pured'.  Here's the technical mumbo jumbo on that: -

Every material will have inconsitencies such as dimensional and density fluctuations, which affects its properties and in golf shaft terms stiffness (bendiness to the layman) is the key one.  In composites, this is caused by the layering method used in the build process.  Best way to describe it is to take a plastic rule and hold it at the ends.  If you tried to fold it in half by putting the flat bits together it bends quite easily.  However, if you try to fold it in half by putting the edges together it is very difficult to bend.  Same material but harder to bend.  This gives you an idea of the principles.

Due to the way in which the graphite in composite shafts is layered, the stifness is different depending on which plane it is bent along.  If it was held at one end in the horizontal plane, the force required to bend it by say one inch would be different depnding on whether it was bent up, down, left or right.  Stick a club head on the end of it in various diferent orientations and swing it at 90 mph and you will get a different kick every time.  It has been suggested that a single shaft could perform anywhere in the range from stiff to soft depending on how it is aligned.  If this is true and you buy a club off the shelf expecting it to regular, you may end up with a stiff or a soft instead. 

Trueing aligns the shaft with the club head to ensure that if you want a regular shaft, it performs like a regular shaft. 

Jamie - Yes

Tim - So shaft selection can affect the spin imparted on the ball then?

Interesting post Viper.  I use two American Golfs, one in Birmingham that is attached to a range and one in Cheltenham that has a launch monitor.  I use the one in Birmingham to try out clubs and see which ones I like the feel of best.  I then use the one n Cheltenham to ensure I get the right selection of loft, lie and shaft.  I then go back to the one in Birmingham to try the theoretical best combination on the range and make a final decision. 

Then I buy the clubs from the US when I am over there on business. 

If you're gonna do that Adam, then there is one thing to bear in mind with regards to my earlier post.  A driver should strike the ball on the way up, not the way down as an iron does.  This reduces the amount of backspin induced and hence gives a longer roll.