2 shot penalty on course & distance.

The one golf rule I see often not played to.

Its ok having 3 off the tee if you go out of bounds, or think you've lost your ball. But if you don't hit a provisional ball off the tee or on the course, when you think it might be lost, this is a 2 shot penalty when dropping the ball in the area of where you think you the ball had landed.  This is course & distance.

 If you think I got it wrong enlighten me, if not pull them law breakers up, or else they will get the par, and you will get the bogey.

 

The penalty is Stroke and Distance, Graham, but in actuality, one should not disregard the rules by dropping a ball and adding two shots, but return to the original place where the shot was originally played from and drop there.

So you wouild be hitting for 3 or 4 after the drop. If you play the provisional you would be hitting for 4 yes?

Corrrect John, if they want to walk back 200+yards to play there shot. This is what i'm saying, they don't and only dot them selves 1 shot. 

Graham, if you are playing a friendly game it would be better to suggest to your partner that the rules are paramount and if he does not wish to walk back then a 2 shot penalty applies, not one shot.

Pete, you are right on the money with your post(excuse the pun). Nothing more to add.

Peter the way you have set out these rules for varies playing formats, there isn’t any such rule as course and distance. On weekends when the course is busy, you can’t go back to the tee. 

Plug ball, what penalty when you can’t find the ball?

The main thing is that some players only penalise them selves 1 shot when it should be 2.

By not going back, you are not playing to the rules of golf. A busy week-end is irellevant, as one would assume that the players behind are also playing to the rules and would understand what has occurred and let him play.

If you wish to allow your friend to drop a ball, then it is encumbent on you to penalise him 2 shots, to make up for the stroke and distance.

Anyone playing with me has to go back, simple as that, or lose the hole in matchplay, record a blob in stableford and as Peter said, a NR in a strokeplay competition.

What you do in friendly games is entirely up to you, but it is not the way to go IMO.

Then from know on they go back, thanks for the info' boys.

I would just like to add to the debate. Graham is technically correct with the 2 shots penalty, because if the person refuses to walk back he is deemed to have breeched the rule and takes the penalty, in this case loss of hole/2 strokes.
The rule refered to is rule 27-1, and I quote from the R & A.

27-1. Stroke and Distance; Ball Out of Bounds; Ball Not Found
Within Five Minutes
a. Proceeding Under Stroke and Distance
At any time, a player may, under penalty of one stroke, play a ball as
nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played
(see Rule 20-5), i.e. proceed under penalty of stroke and distance.
Except as otherwise provided in the Rules, if a player makes a stroke at
a ball from the spot at which the original ball was last played, he is
deemed to have proceeded under penalty of stroke and distance.

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 27-1:
Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes.

Rule 27-2b refers to the provisional ball, which tells us what to do but refers us back to rule 27-1 for the penalty.

b.When Provisional Ball Becomes Ball in Play
The player may play a provisional ball until he reaches the place where the
original ball is likely to be. If he makes a stroke with the provisional ball from
the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the
hole than that place, the original ball is lost and the provisional ball becomes
the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).

So therfore if the person does not play a provisional ball he has breeched rule 27-1 and in stroke play incurs a 2 stroke penalty.

The above rules are straight out of the R & A Rule Book dated 2008 - 2011 which can be found at www.randa.org/flash/rules/PDF/WEB_ROG_spreads.pdf

Hope this clears up the confusion. 

Peter, nice of you to quote the rules , but this is only what we have been saying all along.

He cannot take a penalty of two shots if he does not want to walk back unless he has already played a provisional. As this is not in discussion, then this makes your argument wrong. It would appear that you have mis read what the rules are saying.

Hi John,

I am refering to a Book called The Illustrated Golf Rules Dictionary by Hadyn Rutter. Under Lost Ball it  states that "when a ball is lost, if the player drops another ball in the same area and continues with play - loss of hole/2 Stroke penalty plus in stroke play a further 1 stroke penalty and he must then play from where the original ball was previously played - if he does not rectify the breach and adopt proper procedure disqualification".

So as you state John he must go back, with  penalties, if incurred.

I am pleased we now agree, Peter. I think the problem is that Grahams friend wants to introduce hos own rules with a lesser penalty and Graham is pretty miffed about it, as I would be.

Stableford - Blob.

 

Matchplay - Loss of Hole.

 

Medal - NR.

 

So do we agree the message from Peter Money, stating how this would affect the above games would be scored?

  I would interpretate the rules for a lost ball, and dropping in the area has a 2 stroke penalty.  

Stableford – 2 stroke penalty.

 

Matchplay - Loss of Hole.

 Medal – 2 stroke penalty.

Graham, If it is a friendly game and you are not prepared to wait for your friend to go back and play another ball then the correct penalty to apply would be 2 shots, but this is not allowed under the rules of golf.

So in a Stableford friendly it would be a 2 shot penalty(I would never allow this of course but you can do want you wish) but in a Stableford competition it would be a blob if he did not go back.

The same applies in Matchplay only the penalty would be loss of hole.

Regarding a Medal round, once again you can use whatever rules you like in a friendly, but in a Medal competition he must go back and play from as near to the original spot as possible under the stroke and distance rule and if he does not then he can only submit an NR or be disqualified.

 

 Is it me'.  The  RULE 27-1  say breach of this rule in stroke play is 2 STROKE  PENALTY.

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 27-1:
Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes.

So therfore if the person does not play a provisional ball he has breeched rule 27-1 and in stroke play incurs a 2 stroke penalty.

The above rules are straight out of the R & A Rule Book dated 2008 - 2011 which can be found at www.randa.org/flash/rules/PDF/WEB_ROG_spreads.pdf

 

Andy ' don't you always tare your cards up. LOL

Pete, this is makin' me head spin, just reading through the rules of golf on how to make a cup of tee. Or stuff it I'm goin' for a Guinness up the pub. And when I go to sleep tonight I'LL just dream about hitting the fairway all the time time time...................... 

First of all, one cannot agree to waive a rule of golf. He has to go back and play from the original spot. There is no other alternative.

Graham, I suggest you read the rule again and then perhaps you will notice that it says that in rule 27-1 as you so kindly printed on here.

 

Yes I agree with you 2, but where do we stand on a breach of this rule?

Pete, John, Graham,

I agree with all you say, but my original statement was refering to a breach of rule 27-1.

I know exacly what should be done and correct procedures, what is ambiguous is, what is the penalty for breach of rule 27-1?

According to the rule book it clearly sates breach of rule 27-1, 2 Stroke Penalty. Therfore if that rule is broken (e.g. dropping a ball and continuing to play) surley a two stroke penalty is incured, as per the staetment in the rules. 

Tweedy you have started some thing now. Next time we play for more than a Million pounds I want to play with John Pettitt, but our couple of quid I,m with you.

Harry

Pete, rule 27-1 says there is a penalty of 2 shots if the rule is breached and it would be breached by him playing a stroke from the point where the ball was lost. This would incur a 2 shot penalty, but he would still have to go back to where the original shot was played as there is no provision in the rules of golf for him to do otherwise.

He would be incurring the 2 shot penalty because he was breaching rule 27-1 by dropping another ball and playing a stroke at it, when the only course of action open to him was to go back to where the original was played from.

I might add that every shot by the newly dropped ball would incur a further 2 shot penalty, as the rule would have been breached again.

Hello All,
What a debate!!!
After many hours on the net looking for a difinative answer to this problem, I have found a decision ruling on the very subject.

Visit:         www.usga.org/playing/rules/books/decisions/dec27.html

scroll down the page to:
    27-1/3  Ball Dropped in Area Where Original Ball Lost; Ball Then Played

I read this ruling as John says above, 2 stroke penalty plus stroke and distance penalty, meaning he has to go back, What do you think ????

 

You beat me to it! I've just spent the last 15 minutes trawling through the R&A's decisions on the rules of golf 2006-2007, assuming no changes in the 2008+ rules.

I'm not sure it's still that clear.

I think the first part is clear in that you receive a 3 shot penalty

In stroke play, the player incurs the stroke-and-distance penalty prescribed by Rule 27-1 and an additional penalty of two strokes for a breach of that Rule. 

The uncertainty is what do you do next, you have obviously incurred the additional 2 shots so you continue but within the decisions is states.  

If the breach was a serious one, he must rectify the error as provided in the second paragraph of Rule 20-7c; otherwise, he is disqualified.

I think this adds the uncertainty, what deems a serious breach ? 

The Match Play ruling is nice and clear though.

 

 

Well I no what I’m doing, play a provisional ball if you think you've lost the ball or gone o.o.b.Darren, what’s the ruling if they haven’t played a provisional and don't want to go back?

Matchplay- loss of hole. Stableford ? Medal ?  Three shot penalty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Peter, I studied your link and I feel that the only true option is to go back and play from the original position, anything else is clearly a breach of the rules.

Lost it on this.

Graham, it's not really clear for stroke play it confirms the total 3 shot penalty unless the breach was a serious one.  What's a serious breach though, competitive advantage ?

If it's deemed a serious breach then dependent on scenarios, then you replay the hole and potentially get DQ.

I wonder if rule 20-5 comes into this anywhere.

Graham, have you purposely posted this topic, having attended a golfing quiz or rules exam ? 

 

John, I agree. But we do need a ruling, if they don't want to go back.

 Remember boys this is a game we enjoy playing, sorry girls you as well. But if this situation happens on the first tee we need to be able to follow a ruling that allows everybody to make a decision on all the scenarios we have been through and move on to the next hole with the minimum of fuss.

 

Darren, It's just the disbelief I get on some fellow golfers face when I tell them the ruling. It then made me think that more than most golfers only penalise themselves a one shot penalty. I don't think this will happen now, especially on the golf shake tours. 

John, I agree. The rules are clear. If in breach 2 stroke penalty and also under a penalty of stroke and distance.
Stroke and distance is 1 shot penalty and the distance, which means a walk back.

So it would be three stroke penalty and walk back to play another ball, to rectify the breach of the rule.

Not bothering to walk back does not rectify the breach and therefore DQ.

As Graham says, play a provisional and save any arguments. 

If you think you may have hit into OOB of lost ball, hit a provisional there and then to save walking back if you don't find it....looking for 5 mins, then walking back and playing again adds up to at least 10 mins...too long for a lost ball.

To be fair, if you i was to walk back and take every lost ball shot from the orgional place there would be a riot when i played at weekends at my local course.  Straying off the fairway even slightly generally ends up as a lost ball.  The rough is very heavy even on the edge of the fairway, and there is a huge amount of GUR fenced off.  If every one was to add 2 shots, then walk back, the whole course would end up in chaos.  The group i play with have an agreement that on THAT course just drop one shot (except in GUR) and play from estimated place of the loss.  Seriously, ball loss rate at my course is crazy.

I must admit though, i didnt realise it was a basic 3 shot penalty, and a walk back.  Seems a bit harsh lol

Kris, it is not a three shot penalty, it is stroke and distance.

The course would not end up in chaos if golfers used their brains and played a provisional when they suspect a ball may become lost in heavy rough. How many do though?

Having an agreement between yourselves is in itself a breach of the rules and I do not advise it.

You are just starting your golfing career, Kris, and it would be advisable to abide by the rules from the onset. Bad habits are hard to break.

As ive stated in another thread, the people who have been 'showing me the ropes' appear not to have any real idea of the rules, so i think im going to have a major read up because as you say its only cheating myself. 

 So any way just to clarify, if i lose my ball off the tee and i cant find it, i then go back to retake my tee shot.  Am i then playing my 3rd shot or 4th shot?

Ok, ordered one of those, hopefully this will help.  Cheers