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Next step - fitting or lessons?

Posted by: user555476 | Fri 7th Nov 2014 16:54 | Last Reply

Hi all, advice/opinions sought really on what to do next to help progress my game

Been playing now for about 2.5 yrs, usually once a week, sometimes more Play with a society & have done about 6 days with them this year - I am off 26 with them Input rounds on golfshake & it currently has me off 24.7

Usually shoot around the 100 mark having started off much higher than that Would like to be shooting low 90s consistently & next goal is to break 90

Have had a couple of blocks of lessons over about a year period & have looked at various parts of my game but the main intention was to build a usable swing

I have used the same equipment for most of that time & I bought my irons 2nd hand (they are fairly old irons now - Mizuno MX15). I bought a 2nd hand Cobra S2 driver and new Cobra Baffler 3W and 4&5 hybrids.

Question is whether it would benefit my game more at this stage to get fitted for some new irons (have never had a proper club fitting although I was told that my 2nd hand irons are in fact 1/2" short when I went for a club MOT at a high street golf shop) or is the money better spent on more lesson blocks??

Thanks in advance for any input


Last edit : Fri 7th Nov 2014 16:54
re: Next step - fitting or lessons?
user466742
Reply : Sat 8th Nov 2014 18:09

Personally, i'd split the money and do both! Lessons first though, why would you want to be fit and measured to use something in a certain way, when your technique is likely to change...you might need a degree or two upright, before having a lesson and go to neutral after lessons. thus having another set of clubs that aren't quite 'fitted' anymore! Lessons will make your scores fall consistently...equipment won't (unless you were using senior flex clubs and swung at silly speeds i.e. - 110mph with a driver)


Last edit : Sat 8th Nov 2014 18:09
re: Next step - fitting or lessons?
user50843
Reply : Sat 8th Nov 2014 21:02

For me get the lessons, unless your really tall or really small your wasting money getting fitted. I think your better off (and it's the way I did it myself I'm half inch on standard ) is learn a good consistent swing first with the clubs you've got, there's no point getting fitted for a swing that'll probably change quite a bit over a few months. Your pro will probably know better than anyone, they're looking at you, and he/she might be in the best place to advise you when to get fitted. But beware of pro's with their own agenda, some will happily sell you a set of clubs you don't really need just for the money. Iv'e not come across one of those personally yet tho, but Iv'e heard plenty of stories, good luck with your improvements.


Last edit : Sat 8th Nov 2014 21:02
re: Next step - fitting or lessons?
user246701
Reply : Sun 9th Nov 2014 13:37

A few lessons with pro that you trust would be a starting point. If they believe your clubs are not up to spec that you need then they should have a few 6 iron demo clubs for you to play about with, and you should see for yourself if they feel better and perform better for you.

I wouldn't commit to long term lessons at the moment, as one lesson over winter time will probably work out quite well for you. No point in having lesson after lessons if you don't work on (and time to work on) the things from the lesson.


Last edit : Sun 9th Nov 2014 13:37
re: Next step - fitting or lessons?
user106712
Reply : Tue 11th Nov 2014 16:19

And the answer is, do neither. . From everything I've read about people taking up golf, you reach your optimum within 2 years. Therefore you are unlikely to progress much further with or without lessons, fitting etc. I took up golf 15 years ago and within 2 years I was playing around 12 handicap without lessons or fitting. Now my handicap is 10 but I usually play around 12 over par. I have had lessons and club fitting but my golfing ability hasn't really changed and neither will yours... Good luck, but don't throw your money away, just accept that you won't improve !


Last edit : Tue 11th Nov 2014 16:19
re: Next step - fitting or lessons?
user466742
Reply : Wed 12th Nov 2014 09:45

Adrian, i respect your opinion. But in my experience, you couldn't get further from the truth. I started playing around 3 years ago...after 2 years i was around an 18 handicap hitting around 17-22 over every time i played, with the odd 100+ round.

Now, 3 years in and after a couple of lessons, I play at around 13/14 over par.

That's after 3 lessons in the space of around 2 months (plenty of time to practice what he taught me)...my scores started to fall consistently and i broke 80 a handful of times. I'm aiming for a handicap of around 9 next year...with a lot of work on short game to be done. If someone had said to me 'don't get lessons' two years in and I'd listened...there's no way I'd be looking at getting down to a single figure 'cap. With ambitions to get to Cat 1.

I don't think you can say to anyone 'just accept that you won't improve' that's a very negative attitude to have....what if someone had said that to Justin Rose when he failed to make the cut all those times on the European Tour? He certainly wouldn't of won a Major had he 'accepted he wouldn't improve'

Gary - go talk to your local Pro, ask them for an honest opinion on whether they think a set of fitted clubs or a course of lessons over a decent period of time will help improve your golf.


Last edit : Wed 12th Nov 2014 09:45
re: Next step - fitting or lessons?
user246701
Reply : Wed 12th Nov 2014 11:03

Wow, huge sweeping statement about not improving. After restarting golf after a long break. I got an 11 handicap, a couple of years going slightly up then down again, and then two years of dropping 2 shots, I'm now at 5 .... still got a bit left too, if I can commit to practicing !


Last edit : Wed 12th Nov 2014 11:03
re: Next step - fitting or lessons?
user106712
Reply : Wed 12th Nov 2014 17:18

I was hoping for a bit of an argument over this. Andrew you say you've improved but really, you were a cat 3 golfer and you're still a cat 3 golfer ! hardly an improvement. Brian, you effectively started again and within 2 years you have reached your level. You don't say whether or not you had lessons or custom fitting ( which is what Gary was asking about). I believe that if you practice and play regularly you will reach your level within 2 years. When you were 11 handicap did you play and practice more or less or the same as you do now ?. As for Justin Rose. He didn't improve his golf, just his mental attitude. Now there's a thing that is worth learning.


Last edit : Wed 12th Nov 2014 17:18
re: Next step - fitting or lessons?
user246701
Reply : Wed 12th Nov 2014 19:57

I think you misunderstood. I started playing again about 5 years ago (6 if you include the time when I didn't have a handicap) first handicap was 11 and after the '2 years' it was still 11 (although it did get to 13 for a very short time). The following year I dropped two shots, then a year later another 2 shots and this year has been another 2 shots. During that time no lessons, but a couple of custom fit sessions for various clubs. I don't think Ive practised much at all during that time, in fact friends often make fun of me not knowing the route to the range at all.

Not sure what why you actually think this 2 years thing is true, but best of luck trying to convince everyone


Last edit : Wed 12th Nov 2014 19:57
re: Next step - fitting or lessons?
user466742
Reply : Thu 13th Nov 2014 12:50

Adrian - I completely disagree, my golf swing was pretty awful before i had lessons...I've got good hand eye co-ordination which is why i was able to get round a course as a cat 3. i'm now a much 'better' golfer than i was in fact, i'm only JUST still in cat 3, a few decent rounds with improved putting stats would put me into cat 2...

RE Justin Rose...his swing has changed....he now has a near perfectly balanced swing, possibly the best in golf at the moment...he definitely didn't have that back in say 1999 when he missed all those cuts...

Anyway, i agreed with Brian...definitely think you're going to struggle to convince anyone on your 2 year rule! Good luck!


Last edit : Thu 13th Nov 2014 12:50
re: Next step - fitting or lessons?
user106712
Reply : Thu 13th Nov 2014 17:20

A perfect swing doesn't make much difference. look at Jim Furyk , Bubba Watson, Seve , Graham McDowell. And Padraig Harrington did really well until he tried to "perfect" his swing. So did Kaymer and he only started winning again when he went back to his natural swing. Natural ability will reach it's peak within 2 years and lesson won't make much difference. Only 2 arguments from all the people that have read this must mean that most agree !


Last edit : Thu 13th Nov 2014 17:20
re: Next step - fitting or lessons?
user106712
Reply : Thu 13th Nov 2014 17:33

P.s Andrew, I just looked at your handicap and since January it has gone from 14 to 14. No change ( well maybe up or down a couple of points but your playing handicap has stayed the same for almost a year. Face it "you've peaked" .


Last edit : Thu 13th Nov 2014 17:33
re: Next step - fitting or lessons?
user466742
Reply : Thu 13th Nov 2014 17:34

Adrian, we're talking professional golfers here...they have more natural ability than us, by a long way and you're naive if you believe none of them had a coach at one point or another in their life. Bubba Watson was famed as saying 'I've never had a lesson' i know for a fact that is tosh, his dad taught him to play....it might not of been in conventional lesson structures, but he was still taught how to play the game...The average hacker, who after playing for two years without a lesson, would dramatically improve after say 6 lessons strung out over a few months. If most agreed with you, then local PGA pro's would be out of a job pretty quickly...All of my friends have been playing for the same amount of time as i have, none of them have had lessons...they all play off 20+ and are all of the same sporting ability generally speaking...coincidence that I've had lessons? Not a chance. Am i convinced they'd drop to around my handicap if they had lessons, yes. Why won't they have lessons? Because they are stubborn buggers who won't admit lessons would improve them.


Last edit : Thu 13th Nov 2014 17:34
re: Next step - fitting or lessons?
user106712
Reply : Thu 13th Nov 2014 18:14

You say you have good hand eye co-ordination, maybe your friends don't ! You say "Professional golfers have more natural ability"! You don't say they have more lessons ! The only time I've seen a dramatic improvement was a friend of mine who stopped playing cac-handed and went to a conventional grip. Everyone else I play with has had lessons and none of them have made any great improvement, if any. You can only get someone to their natural level and that's it !


Last edit : Thu 13th Nov 2014 18:14
re: Next step - fitting or lessons?
user246701
Reply : Thu 13th Nov 2014 20:15

>>> Only 2 arguments from all the people that have read this must mean that most agree !

Yeah, of course that's the only possible reason.

>>> Natural ability will reach it's peak within 2 years and lesson won't make much difference.

I must be a freak then !


Last edit : Thu 13th Nov 2014 20:15
re: Next step - fitting or lessons?
user106712
Reply : Thu 13th Nov 2014 20:48

Yes Brian you must be a freak. because you're the only person I know whose average score is 83.3 and without shooting any real low scores your handicap suddenly dropped from 9.2 to 5.8. I would expect someone with 5.8 handicap to shoot regularly in the mid 70's yours is mostly mid 80's and even some in the 90's. Looking at your stats I would say you are around 11 handicap and therefore proved my point. You have peaked !


Last edit : Thu 13th Nov 2014 20:48
re: Next step - fitting or lessons?
user246701
Reply : Thu 13th Nov 2014 21:14

I only started using the site again at the start of the season, hence a few seasons scores aren't shown, and my handicap is administered by my club. I do shoot many rounds in eighties and yes even a couple in the nineties (but hey that's what stapleford scoring does on this site when you pick up with no shots).

Sorry if you don't believe my handicap but that's the way it is, pick holes in my scores if you wish and ignore the facts too.


Last edit : Thu 13th Nov 2014 21:14
re: Next step - fitting or lessons?
user466742
Reply : Fri 14th Nov 2014 10:18

Last thing i'll say on this....if my handicap is no lower than 14 next summer...i'll eat my words & accept your point. Personally, I don't believe I've 'Peaked'.

And of course Pro's get a LOT more coaching than the average Joe. That goes without saying.


Last edit : Fri 14th Nov 2014 10:18
re: Next step - fitting or lessons?
user106712
Reply : Fri 14th Nov 2014 18:13

Good luck Andrew,(I really mean that) and everyone else who strives to be better....PROVE ME WRONG !!!


Last edit : Fri 14th Nov 2014 18:13
re: Next step - fitting or lessons?
user576017
Reply : Fri 21st Nov 2014 21:08

Hi Andrew....just read your views and WOW, could not resist to have a say. I would say you peaked at 2 years with natural ability, fine I can cope with that (sort of), but really, lessons won't help after that?

I think you may find a number of other factors are involved such as, work ethic, commitment to any improvement, the right coach, how hard your work and lastly how much you want it. If you actually want to improve and commit to it, you will improve unless of course, deep down your happy with your current ability. Since having a 6-7 year break from the game between the ages of 17 and 25 I set my handicap to 22 taking the game back up 18 months ago, now down to 10.8 officially with my club and CONGU verified. Now, having lessons and coaching, with a coach who I trust and isn't a "quick fix" guy, i fully intend to be down to Cat 1 by the end of the coming season. But I can guarantee at my 2 year point, I won't have plateaued. 1) Because i want it bad enough 2) I work hard at any drills/techniques from lessons 3) I analyse my game and know where to improve 4) I trust my coach and 5) If you work hard enough, you can achieve anything

If you think you actually can't improve after 2 years of playing, that's a pretty sad state to be in, either you don't know your game, don't know where to start or what area you need to improve or you're happy with the level you've reached and that's perfectly fine. But to state that lessons do not work and you don't improve after 2 years.......ridiculous. Sorry.

In answer to original post, i would definitely get lessons first, and by lessons I mean long term goals, ambitions and what you want to achieve. Not just going to the driving range pro every once in a blue moon to get a quick fix.

Believe me, I have tried that and it's the biggest mistake I ever made. Most people only get lessons when something has gone wrong in their swing, people should get lessons regularly to keep on top of the swing and keep improving on what you already have, not to fix what went wrong on Sunday morning. Plus, fitting is important, but not until you've hit a level where you are pretty consistent with swing and strike.

Rant over but hopefully that helped, helped me get it off my chest


Last edit : Fri 21st Nov 2014 21:08
re: Next step - fitting or lessons?
user106712
Reply : Sat 22nd Nov 2014 08:53

Well so far no-one has proved me wrong. But obviously someone who plays once a month and then suddenly starts playing 3 times a week and practising too will improve. But then will plateau within 2 years. Prove me wrong!


Last edit : Sat 22nd Nov 2014 08:53
re: Next step - fitting or lessons?
user246701
Reply : Sat 22nd Nov 2014 16:03

I already did, but you just ignored it.


Last edit : Sat 22nd Nov 2014 16:03
re: Next step - fitting or lessons?
user106712
Reply : Sat 22nd Nov 2014 21:33

Brian you did not prove me wrong ! The rounds you submitted here are no better than 11 handicap, how you got your "6 " handicap is unknown !


Last edit : Sat 22nd Nov 2014 21:33
re: Next step - fitting or lessons?
user106712
Reply : Sat 22nd Nov 2014 21:36

p.s. Just knocking a couple of shots off your handicap is not really a sign of improvement, everyone has a couple of exceptional rounds each year but then you go back up again !


Last edit : Sat 22nd Nov 2014 21:36
re: Next step - fitting or lessons?
user246701
Reply : Sat 22nd Nov 2014 21:46

Haha, your a classic. Good luck.


Last edit : Sat 22nd Nov 2014 21:46
re: Next step - fitting or lessons?
user576017
Reply : Sun 23rd Nov 2014 21:57

Well that's a very, very sad mentality that's all i can say. It's probably people like your self that don't encourage the right things in golf, don't encourage people to improve and always quit when things get hard. If not prove me wrong but just my opinion.

p,s how do you think professionals got the the level they are at after the 2 year period...? Not that I actually think you will give a logical/reasonable answer but interested to hear what you say never the less.


Last edit : Sun 23rd Nov 2014 21:57
re: Next step - fitting or lessons?
user106712
Reply : Mon 24th Nov 2014 08:23

Ok Ben. Some professionals are way better than others. By your theory all pros would be the same level if they all practise the same but it doesn't happen. They all reach their natural level and don't get any better !


Last edit : Mon 24th Nov 2014 08:23
re: Next step - fitting or lessons?
user451055
Reply : Tue 25th Nov 2014 15:11

Ok - I will take the bait!

I first picked up a club about 5 years ago and since then I have practised/played and had lessons at a pretty constant rate. In March 2011 my handicap was 36 In March 2012 my handicap was 29 In March 2013 my handicap was 25 In March 2014 my handicap was 21 In March 2015 my handicap will hopefully be 18 (currently 19) I have not reached my plateau and I intend to keep playing and practising and having lessons to get my handicap as low as possible.I think I could probably get to 11 or 12 if I keep up the hard work.

Like Brian I am a member of a club so I have a congu handicap - I don't use the handicap system on golfshake but I am speaking the truth!

Judy


Last edit : Tue 25th Nov 2014 15:11
re: Next step - fitting or lessons?
user106712
Reply : Tue 25th Nov 2014 16:37

Ok Judy. First of all well done for improving your game over the years. But I don't consider anything above 18 to be a real handicap. Not too many years ago a handicap only went up to 18 and so it should be. No healthy person should need 2 shots at a hole, they may want them and may use them but don't need them unless they have a physical defect. I have 2 bad shoulders and 1 bad knee but still would not want or need 2 shots at any hole. It is too easy for someone with a very high handicap to play way below it without really needing to improve much if at all. Therefore once you get to 18 handicap your golf will have begun !


Last edit : Tue 25th Nov 2014 16:37
re: Next step - fitting or lessons?
user106712
Reply : Tue 25th Nov 2014 20:45

I would just like to say to Gary who started this thread that he still has room for improvement. The reason I say this is because I have just noticed he only plays once a week and to reach your true potential would need to play 2 or 3 times a week and practise once or twice a week. that way he will reach his best level.


Last edit : Tue 25th Nov 2014 20:45
re: Next step - fitting or lessons?
user451055
Reply : Wed 26th Nov 2014 09:13

Applying immense restraint.


Last edit : Wed 26th Nov 2014 09:13
re: Next step - fitting or lessons?
user106712
Reply : Wed 26th Nov 2014 09:41

I'll tell you what I really hate about high handicaps. I run a golf society at work and we have a range of handicaps up to 28. But there are a few golfers who never practise and just turn up once a month or so with their 28 handicap and they are just as likely to win as I am. That's why no-one should have a handicap higher than 18 unless they are disabled.


Last edit : Wed 26th Nov 2014 09:41
re: Next step - fitting or lessons?
user451055
Reply : Wed 26th Nov 2014 10:26

But surely if they win then their handicap is likely to come down? Isn't that the whole point of the handicap system? Anyone is capable of winning if they play better than their norm on the day. If you don't like higher handicaps winning then only enter scratch competitions so everyone is off the same level. One of the best things about being a member of a club is the congu handicap system. It is a lot more difficult to maintain a higher handicap to enable you to win competitions. I am handicap secretary for our ladies section and I can pull someone's handicap on general play if I feel they need to be lower. Maybe you could do that with your society? If someone wins a competition then their society handicap is pulled 5 shots. Our men do this in their winter competitions to ensure there are different winners though out the winter.


Last edit : Wed 26th Nov 2014 10:26
re: Next step - fitting or lessons?
user477305
Reply : Wed 26th Nov 2014 12:59

Adrian are you able to clarify something? Do you mean after 2 years of real effort as oppose 2 2 years of just playing? I have been playing for about 4 years but in reality if I average 1 round a month over a year I am doing well. My handicap has very steadily come down from 28 to 18 over that time (so I've eventually reached what you would consider a real handicap). Now my new years resolution, and really my goal for next year, is to really have a go at getting good. I'm talking practising pretty much every day and getting in 2 full rounds a week. Do you think that in 2 years time I will have reached my best? As when I think about it I may agree with you. Thinking about it if I hve that physical capabilities to be a 4hcp or lower golfer (may not be realistic but we can dream) then after playing golf 4-6 times a week I would expect to be playing off of single figures in a year. Again some may feel this is unrealistic, but I don't. Think about it coming from a 18 handicap if you start practising pretty much every day you only need to drop 1 shot a month (that's dropping 1 shot for every 20ish practice sessions you have) which in my mind is definitely achievable.


Last edit : Wed 26th Nov 2014 12:59
re: Next step - fitting or lessons?
user106712
Reply : Wed 26th Nov 2014 13:13

That's right Chris. No-one will reach their potential playing once a month. My opinion is that playing twice a week and practising 2 or 3 times a week is what is needed to reach your best level within 2 years. And if someone is not prepared to put in the work then they will never improve significantly !


Last edit : Wed 26th Nov 2014 13:13

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