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Slice to hook, hmmm.

Posted by: user565589 | Sat 26th Apr 2014 08:23 | Last Reply

Been working on eliminating my driver slice by getting my swing on the correct path, pretty sure the slice was being caused by an out to in swing path. Good news is, the slice is gone! Bad news is, it's been replaced by a straight hook or pull as some describe it. My ball is now flying straight but to the left, i.e. If straight down the middle is 12 o'clock then my ball is heading for 10 or 11 o'clock. My questions:

  1. Some people on line (hank haney mainly) say a hook is a sign that you're doing the right thing, is this true?

  2. The hook gets a little better if I weaken my grip, showing less knuckle on the left, but this just doesn't feel right. What else is causing the hook?

  3. I put a head cover near my tee to ensure my swing path is not coming from outside the line and I'm not hitting it so I'm guessing it's a club face angle issue? Does that sound right?

Any advice much appreciated.


Last edit : Sat 26th Apr 2014 17:46
re: Slice to hook, hmmm.
user88724
Reply : Sat 26th Apr 2014 09:10

Brian,

The ball fight which you describe is what I refer to as a 'drag left' shot, i.e. a straight ball off line to the left. I would describe a 'draw' as an acceptable banana ball turn to the left, and a 'hook' a violent banana ball turn to the left.

A ball dragged left - generated an entirely different way - can create a lot of extra distance, but it's extremely difficult to do it consistently / efficiently. It's a technique used by longdrive competitor Phil Naylor. He does it in part by bringing his right foot back to cause an extremely closed stance. (Extent varies considerably). Most golfers attempting such would generate a big hook.

I agree with Mr. Haney, but draw rather than hook, provided that the draw is correctly induced rather than by a swing fault. I try and get all my clubs to draw, but then when I need a straight shot I swing more upright with less coiling. Like say with a 50 yards pitch.

Whilst it is impossible to definitively advise without video footage I can say that what you describe happens to me I am not transferring my weight from my right side onto my left foot fast enough at impact. (Yes, I know that 'stack and tilters' don't like to transfer weight).

One needs to follow through out to a false target, right of the pin, and then switch that weight very quickly. At least that is what you need to tell your brain to do. What happens in reality is that the body bottles out and comes in square very late. But it is important to give the brain that false message.

Good luck with resolving the issue!


Last edit : Sat 26th Apr 2014 11:13
re: Slice to hook, hmmm.
user565589
Reply : Sat 26th Apr 2014 14:09

Thanks Ivan. I know what you mean about the distance, the ball Is travelling much straighter, farther and faster than it used to when I was slicing. It's just heading straight to 10 o'clock. Overall the strike I get on the ball feels great but I'm obviously getting out of position at some point, I'm also going to try moving the ball a little farther back in my stance, perhaps striking at the apex of my arc will help.

re: Slice to hook, hmmm.
user88724
Reply : Sat 26th Apr 2014 16:09

Brian, I always recommend trying to correct any problem by trying one thing at a time. But a correct ball strike with a driver should be between one and five degrees on the upstroke (3.25" or 4" tees absolutely necessary with jumbo 460cc driver heads) with the hands well behind the ball and one's body tilting backwards, braced against a stiff left leg. But don't even go there until you can drive a straight ball from your normal set up. My initial advice will normally cure most players as what I described is how (to use your words) they solve their 'out of position.'


Last edit : Sat 26th Apr 2014 16:09
re: Slice to hook, hmmm.
user8 [FORUM MODERATOR]
Reply : Sun 27th Apr 2014 18:50

Hi Brian, hopefully you've already seen these 2 videos from Dean Halford

Video: 3 Ball Slice Drill

http://www.golfshake.com/improve/view/4097/Video_3_Ball_Slice_Drill.html

Video: Improve Your Driving

http://www.golfshake.com/improve/view/6401/Video_Improve_Your_Driving.html

re: Slice to hook, hmmm.
user43763
Reply : Sun 27th Apr 2014 19:52

sounds to me your still swinging over the top, dead pulls or pull hooks are often symptoms, such a difficult thing to sort, ive been having lessons and i think it took a good 6 weeks to change, worth it though. sounds like you got the clubface sorted its just the path. couple things to try, if you have an old driver or wood laying around, tee it up high, choke way down on the grip with your left hand and set up as normal. slowly, and carefully take the club back with both hands to 9 o clock or shorter and let go with the right hand, try and hit the inside of the ball, distance is not important and i urge you not to hit it far. try and feel like your using your body weight to encourage the club through the ball by rotating your left shoulder upwards and backwards so at impact they are quite square but left shoulder quite high. its a tricky drill but worked wonders for me.

re: Slice to hook, hmmm.
user88724
Reply : Sun 27th Apr 2014 20:14

Sorry Alun but can't agree with your assertion that hooking is a sign of coming over the top. I believe such to be one of golf's 1,001 fallacies!

Namely it is a mistaken idea that a hook is caused by too much right hand or right side coming over the top. Actually it is a slice or high ball that is caused by too much right hand or right side coming over the top. Hooking, or a drag left ball, is when the right side fails to come through the ball and, at worst, a flip hook is the result.

Often a player displays more than one swing fault and the major error is wrongly and simplistically attributed to being the cause of everything. Golfers who come over the top often 'quit.' The quitting is the cause of the problem, as not all over the toppers quit. I hope that such makes literary sense?

Having said that there are countless pros. on the internet supporting your view. As usual, I am in the minority.

How then can so many pros. have a mistaken belief?

One reason is that it only takes one high profile individual to give out bad advice, and then zillions repeat it and then it sticks. I recall a very high profile golf commentator (let's call him 'P') several decades ago commenting on t.v. that the centre of percussion ('sweet spot') on a titanium driver face was always located a significant distance above centre face. Of course that bad advice stuck as many golfers later did not become aware of his public apology for his mistake. To this day it still remains high in the 1,001 chart!


Last edit : Mon 28th Apr 2014 05:59
re: Slice to hook, hmmm.
user565589
Reply : Mon 28th Apr 2014 14:00

Thanks for all the advice guys. Just been at the range and tried using my body alot more. Really not even thinking about my arms and trying to let them follow my body on the down swing. Seems to have cured the hook and now getting just the slightest of fades, ball starting left then landing centre. I'm pretty pleases with that, must be mindful that it doesn't turn into the dreaded slice though. Less arms more body is the trick.

re: Slice to hook, hmmm.
user425195
Reply : Mon 28th Apr 2014 15:09

Ivan, I can assure you a pull can be caused by coming in over the top, I know because I've just had to fix that problem in my swing. Adjusting my swing path, making a touch less steep and coming from inside the ball (and aiming slightly to the right as you state) makes the pull hook impossible, then it's a case of bringing everything round quickly enough and releasing to avoid the banana slice - when it's all working I now have a slight draw shape.


Last edit : Mon 28th Apr 2014 15:10
re: Slice to hook, hmmm.
user565589
Reply : Mon 28th Apr 2014 16:40

Inclined to agree with you Greg. Shallowing out my take away and turning my body first letting my arms follow has helped. If I don't commit to getting my left hip turned in the downswing that's when my problems start. My two main swing thoughts now are hips first and right elbow in. It worked today at the range, remains to be seen how it'll transfer when the 1st tee nerves kick in.

re: Slice to hook, hmmm.
user43763
Reply : Thu 1st May 2014 11:37

Great to hear your sorting it out brian, some of the feelings you describe sound like my fears off the tee, i feel im going to pull or hook it with the driver everytime but as confidence comes those voices get quieter. I will say this though, e careful going flatter, obviously i don't know what your swing was like before you made changes and if your left arm was near your ear on the backswing then flatter is a plus, however if you start coming too flat then you may find your good drives are exactly what you want but the bad one that creeps in will be a big slice. Also on the right elbow tucked in just make sure it doesn't get too tucked on the way back, you need to maintain width because as a general rule, in the backswing you want it opposite to the downswing, i.e. wide way back-narrow way down, which is good, but the opposite holds true also, youtube width in backswing if you don't get me. if narrow on the way back youll end up throwing the club off plane and coming OTT. by the sounds of it though you got things in order and i hope its going well,

Ivan, i believe youll agree that a pull is a clubface square to swingpath and a swingpath that is going left of target. a hook is similar but the clubface is closed to swingpath. its unlikely to be alignment because it would just lead to a left shot which would be straight albeit on a target line that's left of actual target. Its got nothing to do with right hands or marketing gurus or any of that nonsense some believe, its physics.

the high slice caused by a "strong" grip (which is what i think you mean by right hand) is an effect from previous shots where the golfer is so bored of hitting hooks he opens the clubface subconsciously and usually leaning backwards to shallow out the effects of the apparent closed clubface hitting the hook, therefore hitting the slice

look forwards to your comments, Keep it up brian

re: Slice to hook, hmmm.
user88724
Reply : Fri 2nd May 2014 10:03

Alun,

Interestingly golf terminolgy still does not appear to be fixed in stone and on top of that I have a language all of my own eg. power band, kinetic compression etc! The golf swing is a complex muti-faceted thing often with faults potentially having several alternative causes. Hence any advice on golf forums always has to be qualified by 'subject to seeing you swing.' I personally don't believe in artificially adjusting swing plane unless it is chronically bad. Each of us has a natural swing plane. Arguably the majority of amateur golfers do not utilise their most efficient swing plane. How I personally help golfers wishing to improve their DRIVING by best achievable coiling / swing plane is to first find their optimum natural swing plane as follows:

The push away is key. I often refer to this as the take away, but I'm never referring to Indian food.

My optimum take away is low and square almost until one's left heel tries to lift, or does lift - whichever you feel comfortable with. There is a secret to timing this into a simultaneous shoulder turn and hip tilt: One needs to push the driver head AWAY from you to create an imagined circle on the turf. As soon as one cannot push the driver head out any further without hip sway (the driver head is actually going square for most of the take away and slightly out - away from you - towards the end of the take away but don't lean forward to achieve this) then your turn / tilt will naturally phase themselves into the imagined circle which you are drawing on the ground. Your arms / body naturally discover the outer edges of your circle. This technique provides provides exceptional synchronicity between the take away and those two movements. Without doing such then the three will not so easily synchronise and swing plane will be less consistent. There is no need to put marker pegs etc. in/ on the turf. I appreciate that possibly no-one else advocates anything else but true straight line square but it really works. It greatly improves accuracy and distance consistency.

Here is a slo. mo. film of a master of consistent take away synchronisation, even at full stretch using a full length competition driver:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUG_yBZxVBU

It's great that Golfshake can open up this film here, but for extremely close scrutiny this film is far too jumpy - it tends to jump at the vital point, namely the end of the take away. Please visit YouTube for a smoother play back. Having said that YouTube film can jerk!

Before drawing a sparrow take one feather and meditate on it for eight hours a day for a month. At the end of a month forget what you think you have learned, drink a glass of refreshing cold water, then repeat the exercise - but this time really look. The 'experts' who still don't understand Ben Hogan's swing very likely failed to even complete their first day's meditation.

More important than where the swing plane is located is that it is consistent and easily repeatable. Whilst I often hear 'adjust swing plane' or adjust this and that, very often one needs to adjust something entirely different in order to achieve such. How often I see golfers on driving ranges looking over their right shoulder to see where their club head is! If the swing plane has been kicked into its correct orbit using my technique then it will be in the right place. No need to look. All golfers need to look at the ball, not over their right shoulder when swinging unless wishing to star in a comedy opera.

How far one swings back doesn't matter provided that the wrists don't break at the top of the back swing, and if one swings down appropriate to the length of one's natural swing plane and swing length. Even an odd back swing plane can be re-set for the down swing with a top of back swing 'loop.'

Unless this foundation is put in place, using any technique you like, everything else is essentially making the best of a bad job.

Assuming all of that is working then arguably the biggest part of the job has been done. Golfers on forums tend to be heavily biased towards down swing issues. I go the other way. The back swing is key.

There was another good point raised in this thread, namely the relationship between, shoulder turn and hip tilt. This is a more sophisticated issue. If a golfer can achieve it then the shoulder turn is potentially massively greater that any hip tilt movement. Some teachers talk about ratios. This can be counter-productive. If a player cannot create great coiling (the shoulder turn straining against one's waist not being allowed to fully turn as much as the shoulders) then there is no point in straining and possibly causing injury. The way forward (if it's medically safe) is to learn and undertake daily stretching / mobility exercises. Better coiling may then naturally follow, or at the very least be possible. Work without strain with what you have, not what any text book or teacher says should occur in a perfect world. Everyone is different.

Finally, the issue of blocking the ball left, or a straight hook, or however one cares to label it: If the weight is not being thrown into the left foot in attack then everything with regard to left arm / wrist position has gone cack handed at impact, and what can happen is that effectively one's follow through starts early. It can occur even before the ball has been struck. How early is the key issue as to whether a block left or wild hook ensues.

I tend to see things very simply. If it's really more complex than that then I apologise.


Last edit : Sun 4th May 2014 15:14

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