Lost Ball Found After Playing Dropped Ball

Yesterday we had a "debate" about this one and I can't figure out the answer from reading the rules. 

My second shot wasn't particularly good and rolld into some dense bushes.  I searched for a few minutes and due to fading light gave up and dropped a substitute ball which I played.  One of the guys in our group then found my ball 10 yards further back than I'd been looking. 

Am I right in thinking that as I had played the substituted ball my original is no longer in play and I am to hole out with the substitute? 

Actually I wanted to play the original as I overclubbed and put the substitute in the brook that guards the back of the green!!!  I insisted on playing the original, to massive calls of 'cheat!' from the brother-in-law, who also calls me a cheat when I swap between high and low spin balls depending on the hole lngth (but never during a hole).  We agreed to check the rules when we got home and I actually think he was right. 

HOWEVER, as I put the substitute into the brook, I did the right thing by playing my dropped original from the same spot for a one stroke penalty. 

So the penalty is stroke and distance? 

So in my case, this was my second shot (after my only decent drive of the day) and I should have: -

Gone back to where I played the second shot from

Dropped another ball (for a one shot penalty)

Played the dropped ball as my fourth shot

Is that right?

Also, if I had played a provisional from the point of my second shot (before going to search) and subsequently found my first ball, I believe I could have picked up the provisional, as long as I had not played it after it had gone beyond my original ball with no penalty.  Is this right?  That's my interpretation of Rule 27-2b and the defintion of a 'Lost Ball'. 

Cool.  Now I'm starting to get the rules, now all I need is to learn how to play. 

Also, am I right in thinking that the five minutes does not include any time I take playing my provisional (classed as the 'wrong ball' if I find my original).  It's five searching minutes, not five minutes from playing the stroke.

David is correct in everything he has posted on this topic with the exception of calling the ball dropped and elected to play "a provisional". It is not, it is the ball in play.

Once a provisional ball is deemd the one to played it is no longer a provisional ball.

A provisional ball is played before any attempts to find the first ball are made.

This is what you said, David:

You can look for the first ball for a maximum of five minutes. Then you play a provisional.

A provisional is played before one commences to look for the ball, it is because it may be lost that one plays a provisional in the first place. So, by saying that once the five minutes is up that one can play a provisional, is incorrect.

You would be correct in stating that even after dropping a ball, providing a stroke has been made that it would be permitted to play the found ball, provided of course that it was within the five minuite regulation.

Once the time has run out or the player deems the ball lost, it is dead and buried and normally the player would have to return to the spot where the original shot was played from, thus losing stroke and distance, unless of course the ball is lost in a hazard where other rules apply for this situation. 

So, if I have this right. 

If you think you may have lost your ball (including out of bounds), you hit a provisional from the same place as the original shot, but not unless you first inform the group you are playing with that you are doing so.  If you don't inform them, it counts as playing the wrong ball and you take a penalty stroke (and then have to hit another provisional). 

You may play the provisional until it reaches or passes the point at which you believe you lost your ball. 

You now have five minutes to find the first ball you struck.

If you can't find your ball in the alloted time or it is out of bounds, it is deemed lost and your provisional becomes your ball in play.  Your stroke count is now however many strokes you took at the provisional ball, plus the strokes you took at the original ball, plus one penalty stroke. 

If you find your first ball in the alloted time and it is not deemed lost, you pick up the provisional and play the original ball with no penalty.  This is because the provisional was not in play as your original ball was not officially declared lost - UNLESS...

If you take a stroke at the provisional when beyond where your ball was lost i.e. closer to the hole, then the rule at 4. above applies, even if you subsequently find it. 

I think that is it.  God these rules are more difficult the game itself!

Oh, and I think that the provisional stops being 'provisional' and becomes 'substituted' when it becomes the ball in play.  So you may pick up a provisional but once it becomes substitutesd you have to hole it out. 

Chris,regarding your comment No.1 which I will paste here:

If you think you may have lost your ball (including out of bounds), you hit a provisional from the same place as the original shot, but not unless you first inform the group you are playing with that you are doing so.  If you don't inform them, it counts as playing the wrong ball and you take a penalty stroke (and then have to hit another provisional). 

The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball.

If he fails to do so and plays another ball, that ball is not a provisional ball and becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1) ; the original ball is lost.

Ah, so if I play a provisional without informing the relevant parties, I am effectively declaring the original ball lost immediately and revoking any right to search for it. 

My discussions with the brother-in-law continued today (with more claims of cheat!).  We have reached an agreement that our regular Sunday four-ball will agree what is fair amongst us by majority decision in future if were unsure.  We will then check the rules at a later date so that we "know for next time".  As we're all of a similar standard (and none have us have been playing more than two years) we agreed that this was fair for a social game where the only competition is with each other for bragging rights. 

Exactly, Chris.

It is nice to hear that some golfers are keen to play by the rules.

 Yes David, my typing is as bad as my brain.

I think we both know what the situation is in respect of a provisional ball, just that we have got our wires crossed somewhere.

Chris

    Why do you swap balls on longer/shorter holes?

Don't know what you mean David, surelly you can't be talking about Robbie ''Mulligan'' Alison

Tony,

Like most high handicappers I have a fade which increases with club length.  For me, this is normally related to having a wood in my hand.  A lower spin ball (typically a Titleist NXT) when using a wood off the tee helps get me closer to the fairway. 

I do have the ability to impart some decent backspin with all my irons off the tee (and anything 8 or shorter off the fairway) so I use a Pro V1 on 140 - 170 yard par 3's and a Pro V1X on shorter ones as I can aim to drop it as close as I can to the pin without fear of hurtling off the back.  Very useful with an island green!

You can be such a grumpy old man sometimes.

Problem is David that I can't do it every time at that distance (I can 9 times out of 10 from within 140 yards though).  I can also drive 300+ yards straight, but only twice per round on average.  And that's why I'm a 24.6 handicapper - no consistency. 

Hello seeenoir, I like your seeester......

If only that were true my dear boy.  If I cold get a consistent round where I play to my ability on every stroke, I'm probably 10 strokes better than my handicap suggests.  Problem is there is always something not working.  On Sunday, it was anything longer than a six iron.  Then when it is going well, I lose my head as I put myself under pressure to keep performing that way.  I've carded 42 going out, added up at the turn and lost my head, carding 54 in.  When I'm scoring well I try to chase the game, try too hard and my course management goes out of the window. 

I'd love to break 90 but 94 is the best I've carded. 

Bring her down on the 22nd, I'll charm her with my sombrero and poncho. 

I hope you do think I'm a bandit on the 22nd 'cos that means I will have played well.  I aim to get to the end of the round without a sore throat from shouting "Fore Right!" too much.  Which brings me onto the new topic I've just posted.

Ahh, backspin I had that once, long time ago.....

A lesser man at this point might enter into some name calling or general tit for tat but not me I am better than that....

What's all this...??

I spend most of the week in bed with flu and my hairy headed partner is abused and reduced to tears. We have just come from a nightmare round and not even my regular cuddles could halt tony's sniffles.

And it is so close to father christmas coming too - Of course us Northernites  believe in things like Santa and fairies at the bottom of the garden.

Not to mention 300 yard drives and eyesight sharp enough to spot backspin from 170 yards...

Wind up merchant - me...??

 

I looked at this long and hard during and after this discussion and my understanding is this.

• A 'provisional' ball is played as a "just in case" and effectively saves you taking a long walk back down the fairway if you don't find your ball.  You can play your provisional up until you reach the point your original ball came to rest/was lost.  It only becomes the ball in play (i.e. a 'substituted' ball) if you play a stroke at it beyond that point or you declare your original ball lost, whichever comes first.  If you find your original ball, you can pick up your provisional at no penalty. 
• A 'substituted' ball replaces the original immediately and is in play from that point.  It is only used when the original is declared lost.  It is played from either the position that the original ball was played and lost (stroke and distance) or as defined otherwise in the rules.  If you find your original ball after playing at a substituted ball, tough. 
• A 'provisional' becomes a 'substituted' immediately the original is declared lost or when it is played beyond the point at which the original ball came to rest/was lost.  
• The stroke count is no of shots at the original, plus no of shots at the 'substituted' ball, plus one stroke. 

I think the comment about going back and hitting another after a two minute search is semantics.  You wouldn't go back and hit another unless you had already decided the original was lost, so that declaration would make the replacement a substituted ball anyway.  You typically only hit a provisional if you think there is a chance you won't find the original.  Does that make sense to everyone?

Morning Wayne.  I know all about the long walk back down the fairway after the 4th on Thursday!!!  Starting to come to terms with the embarrassment now. 

Steve, I'm confused.  In your first post you say: -

"For example - you go to look for your ball for 2 mins (without playing a provisional) walk back to where you originaly played from and drop another. The 2nd ball is now the ball in play. If someone finds your original ball before the 5 mins has elapsed or before you hit the substituted ball it doesn't make any difference - it's no longer the ball in play!"

OK, I follow that.  But in your last one you say: -

"[A ball] can only be deemed lost by another action ie putting another ball into play or exceeding 5 mins search. eg even if you say "I declare that ball lost" if someone finds it within 5 mins search you still have to play it"

I apologise as I'm reasonably new to the game, but it appears contradictory to me.  Am I misunderstanding?

Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (b) Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the  hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or (c) Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.

I am sure you were correct within your own mind, David, just that steve picked you up on your interpretation of the line.

I understood what you meant.

Ask David Beckham if dropped and substituted is the same thing.....

So if I play a provisional off the tee, thats still only a provisional until I play a shot with it, past the point where I believe I've lost the original ball?

This scenario.

Tee off, into the trees. Play a provisional, middle of the fairway. Play 2nd with the provisional. Wallk a bit further, and my 1st ball has bounced out into the rough, its not lost.

Can I play the 1st ball? 

HOPE is not good enough, David, but I am sure you are right. This rule does not apply to me as I only have one ball and when that is lost I have to walk in.

I noticed last week that they sell those in Asda now John if you're struggling to get hold of them. 

Thanks guys, but I have never had trouble getting hold of them, a great ball I can tell you.