North v South venue 2013 - South access

Sorry for the delays on this, the last 2 years of poor weather and my track record have sapped the energy out of me for organising events plus the 2 cancellations of the North vs South last year!

Anyway I'm looking into this and would welcome feedback from the South players in terms of travelling.

Below is a map with the green pin showing the Abbey, top Yellow showing Forest of Arden (which I think is too far north), bottom yellow showing Wokefield Park (too far South for the Northerners).

The grey area is what I say as the central easily accessible areas for both the North and South teams with some potential venues (all venues have accom/hotel attached).

I would welcome thoughts from the South players on preferred travel time/location so I can start to pinpoint the venue and then ultimately date of this years event.

https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=216784536997170587902.0004dd36295e37f2d1168&msa=0&ll=52.335339,-0.74707&
;spn=1.60446,4.938354

birmigham is more or less half way from london to manchester plus it depends where you class north and south

Depends on where the majority of players live...

De Vere, Staverton Park near Daventry is just under 3hrs from Middlesbrough and just over an hour from north London where I often work. Does that make it central? Central is different for everyone, and it's also about how far someone is willing to travel for a good venue.

I would say pick something decent, at least an hour north of London, and if the price/company/course is worth a visit people will put their names down.

Personally Birmingham would be the highest that I would want to go. I played Wokefield Park last weekend on the Gtour and it is a fantastic venue and would love to play there again.

Just north of Birmingham J7 of the M6 and about 3 miles further is Walsall Golf Club, a tidy parkland course where you are assured of a warm welcome. Played yesterday in a charity day comp, and although the greens were not at their best due to drainage work, I'm sure in a few months time they will have improved

As I am right on the south coast any journey is going to be quite a long one for me. So I am happy to wait until people decide on the course and then I will decide if I can make the trip based on the course/price etc similar to what Brian has said

Living in the Midlands it probably doesn't make any difference to me because I will not have too far to travel wherever it is held but I do think Brian hit the nail on the head. If it's a decent venue people will be happy to travel. IMHO none of the places mentioned in Darren's post come anywhere close to being as good as the Forest of Arden.

I still think Forest of Arden is the best option. Just over 2 hours from Leeds, 3.5 hours from Newcastle. 2 hours from London and just over 2.5 hours from Bournemouth on the south coast. Good access, two good courses, all amenities on site. No brainier in my mind

Got to agree Chris, cracking finishing hole overlooking the hotel, especially for matchplay. Just a bit pricey.

It's all very well moving it South, but you still have to remember that even Birmingham is still a fair trek for some of the Northern players, and it would be difficult to find anywhere with better road access.

Everywhere mentioned is a fair drive from me in Brighton, but as others have already said the quality of the venue makes the most difference. 2.5 hours to a poor course is wasted time and money compared with 3.5 hours to a good track. I have not played any of them so I will have to take the reviews as a guide. If we were playing the better course at FOA at least once I would be prepared to make the journey.

The Belfry?

Tim Greaves hit the nail on the head very succinctly. Get the venue right and it doesn't matter if its 2hrs or 3.5hrs... we all know the company(southerners) could be questionable...

I notice the central grey area encompases a small section of the M25!!! not quiet sure I'd call that central.

I've never actually been able to play in the event and am hoping to join in this time, fortunatly I live in Stoke so travelling south isn't a massive issue for me, but it does seem a little biased for the southerners. I'm not sure what the location of the bulk of players is though.

Hearing good things online about Menzies Welcome break in Stratford upon Avon. Any one played there ? Any good ? easy to get to ?

Tim, The Menzies is a superb course & there are some fantastic risk & reward holes. Just down the road is Stratford town centre.

I play there twice a year as my cousin has a corporate membership so I get a freebie

My top 3 would be;

1 - FOA 2 - Menzies 3 - Belfry

Thanks, just trying to get a rough consensus and location preference.

When I surveyed in 2012 FoA came out on top for the North players but was deemed too far North for the Southern guys. Hence my crude map and location selection to try and get somewhere slightly further down South. As I've mentioned Wokefield Park is too far for the North guys

Isn't Birmingham classed as the centre of England? I'm pretty sure it would take as long for me to get there from Darlington as it would someone from south of London.

Forest of Arden would be ideal - still 3hours+ for me, but ideal all the same.

The accommodation at the Welcombe can be pricey and the course (in my opinion) is not that great. Mind you, it is a big step up from the Abbey but still nowhere near as good as the Forest of Arden.

Tim H

Forest of Arden are doing a Sunday driver offer all year. Round on both courses (one Sunday, other Monday), dinner, room and breakfast for £129. For only £20 more than the Abbey I don't think there'd be many complaints

As there are two courses we could do singles on one course and pairs on the other. To allow for an earlier finish we could do half on each course on each day if we wanted to as well. Both have good finishing holes too and the 18th on Arden is a real knee-knocker!

Darren

Just looked at the map. Did you fail geometry at school because I don't think you understand what "middle" means! If you zoom out of the map so the whole of the UK mainland is in you can see just how far towards the South East the grey area is skewed

Richard The last course advice you gave me was to play St Georges Hill, and what an amazing course that turned out to be !!! If you say FOA; then that is good enough for me.

The Forest of Arden isn't as far North as the Abbey is. So the Southern based players wouldn't have to travel any further.

As has already been stated, pick the correct course with the right price and you will not have a problem getting people to play.

For me, I'd go for the Belfry, pretty central and a bit of history with it. After that the Forest of Arden. I still like the Abbey, especially the gallery watching over the 18th green!

You will always get the people who live in the far north or south of the country who will have a long drive even to get to the center of the country. The problem we have to decide is how far is it acceptable for somebody to drive to get to this event. Would we say three hours, and if you live further than that then you have been unlucky in your choice of home town!

Russ

You cannot put FOA and St. Georges Hill as comparable courses. Having played FOA and been a member at St Georges Hill I can assure you that the difference in class is substantially in favour of the Weybridge course.

Hi John I was not comparing the FOA and St Georges Hill. When I was looking for a replacement venue for a cancelled trip to Swinley Forest due to the poor condition of their greens. Richard Lane advised that St Georges Hill was one of his very favourite courses and as you obviously know he was not wrong. The point I was making was that I will trust his judgement over the quality of a course after that tip. You were very fortunate to be a member of such a great course as St Georges Hill, although I would imagine it didn't come without financial implications. The red and blue were simply stunning.

Richard, what would Kenilworth do it for? Best course in Warwickshire in my opinion. Fair enough no hotel attached but Chesford Grange 2 minutes away and does deals through QHotels. Holiday Inn and Hilton 5 mins too. A lot more friendly for the southern lads to get to too. No faffing about around Birmingham or Coventry.

Hi Paul. I'm glad you rate Kenilworth so highly but I'm not sure even I would say it is the best course in Warwickshire! For me, its certainly one of the better ones but the best may be pushing it.

Kenilworth wouldn't be an option in any event because they would not allow a society booking on a Sunday. The course is very busy with competitions & matches as it is, the members would go mad if the tee was reserved for a society booking on a Sunday.

If you fancy coming over for a game sometime let me know. You can come over as my guest for £22.50 if you want to play.

if your looking around the coventry area, imo Coventry Golf Club is the place to play, a little pricey but a good test of golf.

I'm playing Handsworth in the week so will report back after if it helps.

Ladbrooke Park, just off the M42 is another in very good condition according to reports. On the other side of the motorway you have both Kings Norton and Fulford Heath, so choice of three courses with a 5 mile radius

Bob,

I've played Handsworth a few times with a couple of members. You'll enjoy it. I don't think they would allow a society on a Sunday though, and another problem is there is no hotel on site or even close. With 50+ golfers playing a hotel is effectively a prerequisite

The numbers that play in the NvS and the fact it is over two days so a hotel is required is one of the main reasons why, before we moved to the Abbey, we used to play at one of the corporate chains

Thanks for the invite Richard, I'll be more than happy to take you up on your offer when I get a spare day. Cheers Paul

I would be more than up for a trip to the FOA. Played it before poorly but enjoyed the event. Can only play 1 day tho. It is still at least 3 Hrs by car from Poole in Dorset tho.

I will become a member at Handsworth for the 2nd time in June. Anybody who wants to come down for a game is more than welcome.

Robert, the course is getting back to its best.

How about Hellidon Lakes Golf & Spa Hotel? It's in Northamptonshire, has a hotel, 3 loops of 9 and a Sunday stop over with 2 rounds is from £89. Never played it myself but looks to tick the boxes...

http://www.yourgolftravel.com/hellidon-lakes?package=6cdcae3bb6e502c47ace541a443a077c

Chris, this was the venue for the very first NvS nice shortish par 4 to start and excellent par 3 18th over water with the clubhouse/galleries looking on

How about here ticks all the boxes and easy to get to from all directions https://package.golfswitch.com/specialsDetail.asp?d=487&pid=991https://package.golfswitch.com/specialsDetail.asp?d=4
87&pid=991

A good course (mathan) and a great course(the old a former PGA tour course) , fabulous setting,hotel and food. The Sunday driver package.

Dave, the link takes you to a general list of Marriott hotels but I assume you are referring to St Pierre (although the new course is the Mathern). It's a great venue (only ever played the Old course) and, personally, I would be very happy to travel there but from Yorkshire or Lancashire it's going to be a bit of a slog.

Leyo Its no further from me than FOA, so again i will have to take the advice of others that have played there. It seems like the bar or club house must overlook the 18th ? (not that your games would go down the last)

Tim. The 18th on one of the St Pierre courses is a monster Par 3 overlooking the clubhouse. Have played there a few times and I'd say it was on a par with FoA, but it's in Wales, so unless we're doing East v West then the only person it's good for is Dave....

I remember Hellidon Lakes, anyone know how the course is now - seem to remember it should be a good matchplay course as it's not particularly long - again with a cracking finishing hole.

Richard , yes St Pierre its the Sunday driver package £99 two rounds, 3 course meal Bed and breckie I'm pretty sure £99 would not be far off the green fees alone. You play both courses and wouldn't take much longer than your trip to Minch. Its about 5 mins off the M4

Tim , yes real tough par 3 finish I've played team golf there and is a great matchplay course. Not sure when you last played there , but it has been lengthened quite a bit.

Agree easy for me + perry,kev,JP and most south midlanders ,but I would stop over for obvious reasons

Tim G you'd love'it. It's a fair course not to taxing.

I have no probs with FOA either as have not had the pleasure of playing the better course there.

Hawkstone or Heythrope both look good value for money (golfbreaks.com)

Hellidon Lakes whilst a decent knock isn't one I'd travel a distance to play.

Ingon Manor would be a better test than Hellidon, although I'm not sure if it could accommodate 50 golfers.

Not sure if this would be any good but Brandon Wood Golf Course has it's entrance almost directly opposite Brandon Hall Hotel. Although a municipal it is rated 3.59/5 on this very forum

Clive Dakin Handicap 19.8 Have case will travel as others have posted if coarse is good and the price is right the company has always been good so I will be there but I would rather do 3.5hrs than 2.5 for a good weekend coming from Fleet Hants

I spent the day at Whittlebury Park for the England Golf Midland Boys Qualifier. It is never going to be rated as a top course but it is decent enough with some interesting holes and pretty good greens. It ticks most of the NvS boxes in that it is central (adjacent to Silverstone with easy access from M40/M1), it has 36 holes and a hotel.

I´m sat by Maspalomas golf club at the moment, its pretty nice and only 4 hours from any UK airport. A bit pricey with the flights mind. FOA all the way, 129 is the right money.

How can that be the centre of England! Darren I think you'r giving in to the few who like their golf on their doorstep again. It seems every year when these events come up it's the southerners who won't travel, FoA would be an ideal venue for this. For one it's the true centre, the M25 is not, and the course (Arden) is ideal for a big event like this.

Edinburgh to Whittlebury Park = 6hrs Paris to Whittlebury Park = 5.5hrs

London to Whittlebury Park = 1hr 48mins

Newcastle to Whittlebury Park = 4hrs

FoA gets my vote for being a fair central point.

I think the last two posts, coupled with the first one, have hit the nail on the head. All about "where do the south team want it" and "where would the south team travel to". No thought to the North team.

I think the problem relates to the border between North and South, with many players playing for the North who should play for the South. That's skewing the numbers and making it difficult for the South to get numbers. I say we make this really simple

1. Put the match as close to the middle of the country as you can
2. If you come from North of the venue, you play for the North
3. If you come from South of the venue, you play for the South

Chris I am not sure that it is "where do the south want it" and "where would the south travel to" After numerous discussions on this topic over the last few years, as last years South captain I actually worked out the travel times with route finder (obsessive I know) for all those attending. The average south time was around 45 mins longer than the average North travel time. The reason for this is that there are few players, with obvious exceptions like Brian Willerton who travel from a long way north, whereas there are lots of Southern players who travel from the south coast and south west. The geographical centre of the country has no bearing on road travel times which is why Darren was looking further south, so please nobody else say that the m25 is not the centre of the country ! I am sure Darren is well aware of this and actually never said that it was ! As I have already posted, if the course is good then I have no issue with 3.15 drive, which is how long it would take me to get to FOA, as i will be travelling up with at least 2 others, but I can also see why others may not choose to make that financial and time outlay. Your idea about dividing the country is a good one, but I think it would be hard to ask players to change teams after playing for several years for one side. Let's hope we can have another competitive comp this year on a nice track with maybe a couple of drinks thrown in for good measure.

Tim, this is from Darren's original post:-

"I would welcome thoughts from the South players on preferred travel time/location so I can start to pinpoint the venue and then ultimately date of this years event."

That is what I was alluding to. I agree that there does seem to be a lot of the southern players who come from 'very south' which makes the average travel time for the south players longer, but there are also North players who don't travel from Teeside for the same reason (at least an hour further North than Brian W)

I agree with yours and others thoughts of "if it's a decent venue we will travel anyway" and there are many, including me, who will travel no matter where it is. The original plan was to alternate between a venue in the North and a venue in the South, but this made it even more difficult for the 'away' team so a fixed central location was decided on. Unfortunately the Abbey has deteriorated over the last couple of years and is no longer the course/venue it was, especially with the course changes.

I'm not suggesting people change sides - once you've represented a team you should stick with it - but I do think there are a large number playing for the north who should play for the south and that makes it difficult for the south to get a strong team. There has always been a lot of debate about where the border is (annually it seems) and until that is resolved there will always be the same debate. The key area is the Birmingham area. Geographically the M6 heading east/west across the north of Birmingham marks the North/South divide, putting Birmingham in the South and massively increasing the South team catchment area, but most people from Birmingham play for the North. That will also affect your average travel times

As for FOA, I think it's a no brainer, and we could have pairs on one course and singles on the other. We could even have pairs and singles going on at the same time to reduce the total comp time for travelling

As for "a couple of drinks", with Dave Ley there that will not be an issue...

Plus one for Whittlebury Park, great course and by the looks of it the facilities have improved there too. Hotel seems to be offering Summer specials in July/August which might help as the previous time I had looked, it the accomodation rates were quite high.

My other suggestion would be Abbotsley which falls just inside Darren's 'circle'. Nice little course with a 42 bedroom hotel.

I would be happy to travel as far as Birmingham and the FOA.

I'm sat in Tunisia port el kantoui & it's 2.20 hrs from bham airport & there are 3 golf courses within throwing distance of my hotel. There are some golfers here & they paid £175 for 5 rounds all inclusive!!

Foa is a no brainer.

you'll never please everyone...it's a case of pick somewhere and see what happens.

btw, if those north of the venue are on the north team, and those south of the venue on the south team...what about those who are east (or west!) of the venue?!

Draw a horizontal line east and west though the venue on a map that reaches the North Sea and Irish Sea coasts Matt. Above it = North team, below it = South team. I'd say simple but that would also apply to you....

I can't believe some of the posts following my suggestion to throw Whittlebury into the mixing pot. Let me be clear. FoA is 15 minutes from my house and was the first option I supported. I'd be happier than anyone if NvS was played at FoA but as Darren had suggested somewhere in the region of J15 of the M1 I thought Whittlebury was a possibility.

If a decision isn't made soon NvS will not happen as the courses will be booked up. Time to take the plunge me thinks.

as someone new to all this i would support the FoA,then i might be able to share a lift from basingstoke area ?

get it on

Abbey hotel FoA Staverton Hellidon

Personally I think that the Abbey has the better atmosphere and is very homely and the course is in great shape. Not played FoA and its been a while since I played the other two but Hellidon Lakes has a great finishing hole lol. Times getting on so it needs to be decided soon. Would travel wherever to play NvS anyway - it's such a great couple of days away and always look forward to catching up with everybody again. Hurry up Darren - pleeeaaaassseeee!!!!! Lol

How about Collingtree Park by junction 15 of the M1. There are a few hotels very close by too.

Just had a look at a map of uk. and if you take Aberdeen as probably the most northerly players and Plymouth as the most southerly then Leeds is the most central. With motorway links via M1 and M62. and just because I come from Leeds means nothing ;-)