Joining Fees

Joining fees have probably been debated on here many a time but I am interested in others users experiences with them, maybe you work behind the scenes at a club and have dealings with these fees?

I am currently a "member" at the De Vere Club which in a nut shell, gives me points to use to play golf at any of their many resorts for a set price. I liked the idea and flexibility of the scheme as it allows me to play a plethora of courses for a set fee. I am now looking to join a normal club but have noticed joining fees at the majority, what are they for? I appreciate some may say "its self explanatory", but is it? Why do they feel the need to add more money on an already pricey product?

It can't be down to a quick cash fix as a large percentage of joining fees can be paid over a long period, say 10 years. For me its a bit of a deal breaker, I am in the Armed Forces and my job moves me around the country every few years and the likelihood of returning to the same area is unlikely so it seems a waste of money. What is annoying is the lack of explanation of these fees, why are you asking for them? What are they used for? All that is mentioned is the term they can be paid over.

To me it sounds like penny pinching, but as I have had no dealings with them yet, it would be wrong to speculate. Any ideas?

Gary, you can count yourself fortunate that you are able to pay this joining fee over a period of ten years. In days gone by this was expected in full on the day of joining together with the years fee for the year. No club operated a monthly payment scheme. I would mention that there was no other option if one desired membership at a private club. The choice was pretty stark, either pay up or go back to the public course.

Now of course, you have many different options with the flood of new course that have been built in the past thirty odd years.

Until you join one of these private clubs and experience them, you will just not understand.

Private clubs in those days operated for the benefit of the members, there were no green fee payers and, the best thing of all, NO starting times.

I'm actually amazed that some clubs still charge joining fees, even if they are paid over ten years. My club dropped their joining fee and has seen an influx of new members, including me. Five years ago they were charging �1000 joining fees on top of the �1000 membership, I could never have afforded that.

Fast forward to last year, when the club realised that there membership was dwindling and the current membership was quite old, they removed the joining fee and knocked �300 off the membership. Cue a massive influx of new members, who have stayed.

You still needed to be recommended by a current member and attend an interview/induction, but I was in and I'm not leaving

All my local clubs bar 1 have dropped the welcome/joining fee.

The 1 that has not is struggling to attract any new members and has lost 25% of membership over the past 3 years.

In short golfers are not prepared to pay the welcome/joining fee any more and shop around!

Here's a question to you guys on here who are members of these courses. Dont you find you can easily get bored of the same course? Let's say you pay the membership and stay at that one club for 5 years, if there are no other courses affiliated to the one you are a member of, surely you can become a little bored with playing the same course week in week out. Of course rightly to get your money's worth but i know myself not being a member, ok i might pay more per month to play different courses but i reckon i can pick you choose which course to play in certain weather etc or depending on the ability of the person i am playing with. Just wondered if that was the case ?

Bored with the same course you ask, Nick, not in my opinion as the course is different every time one plays. I might add that being a nomad golfer does not help ones putting stroke, yet that is half the game.

John i agree my putting figures probably will look poor as i have to get used to differing greens with the different courses, but i actually think this is improving my putting, i will probably be more confident than yourself when playing on a new course and new greens ie a society match. How often do you play a different course per year on average?

Join a club, get into the teams and 'Open Days' and you can play any number of other courses.

On the joining fees. Years ago many clubs took a joining fee to allow the player to own part of the club. If the club folded and any money was left over, the guys who had been a member over X amount of years or paid a JF got a payout.

We still have a hefty joining fee which doesn't seem to impact the men's side, they still have a large section and a healthy waiting list. A different story on the ladies side though. Since the equality thing came in we all pay the same (previously ladies paid about 2/3rds and were not full members and had restrictions on some aspects of club life) and it is very hard to find ladies that can stump up that amount of cash. If you work then you are unlikely to feel it would be value for money as you aren't able to play during the week, finding ones that don't work and can afford the fees is tricky. I'm lucky that my job is flexible enough (and I am obsessed enough) to get my moneys worth but I was also lucky to join just before equality kicked in. We are looking to boost the ladies section but it is very difficult now.

Maybe going off-topic a bit here but this whole equality thing goes too far sometimes. It has had an adverse affect on your club Judy as it seems you are struggling to get lady members. Are you allowed to offer "temporary" discounts just for ladies? Can this be viewed solely as a marketting / "sales" generation strategy? Or would you have to offer the same discounts to men?

There is still a lack of uniform equality on age. I often see discounted membership for juniors (possibly exempt) but also for age groups such as 18-25; 20-30 or even 30-40 at one place... I am 43 :-(

Surely if you are allowed to discount according to age, you can discount according to sex?

You can discount for set time period or for set number of new members focussing on a specific group. So it can be ladies only, or men of a certain age. The trouble is, now equality is in you do get some men speaking against doing it as they think it is unfair that the ladies are getting a deal and not the men. With equality the only thing the ladies have gained is voting rights and being allowed into what was the men only bar. With now paying full fees, and those full fees have increased in the last 2 years, the ladies are now paying double what they were 3 years ago. This means we have lost members who can't afford the new fees never mind trying to get new ones who are hit with the joining fee too. There were thoughts on having a tiered membership system but that would have to be offered to the men too and they felt they would lose too much money by men taking it up so they couldn't put it in place. It is a tough time but I am confident we will get there. We have a fantastic course which attracts lots of very good juniors (keep your eyes open for a Kirsty Beckwith in the future - she is brilliant) and with some innovative marketing I am sure we will be able to boost our numbers.

all our local club have a special deal for the under 32s normaly half the normal fees this has to be ageism,in the work place this would be agenst the law

Judy, just to play devil's advocate - I appreciate the stark rise in women's fees will have an impact as you're used to paying what you're paying, but why is it any different for men? The only difference is that we've paid the equivalent fees for longer. The same arguments about value for money and time to fit in enough golf around work to make it worthwhile surely apply to both sexes? Why should a woman who has the time to play whenever she likes but now can't afford the fees be any different to a man in the same boat? There is no reason she should have less money or time because she's female surely?

That said, I do appreciate there is a wider pool of men in the sport than women, therefore finding the few who can both afford it and have the time will be more difficult in the women's game, especially at higher-end clubs. In my experience (not necessarily true on a wider scale) the majority of female players enjoy the game for the social aspect more than the actual golf, so why pay higher fees for a better course that they're not really bothered about?

As to joining fees - I think if private member's clubs charge them then that's up to them, if I could afford it and the club was good enough I wouldn't complain. Most public courses have dropped joining fees at least round our way, like Garry I'm in the military and wouldn't be a member anywhere if they demanded joining fees (I'd be paying a new set of fees every other year!). There are plenty of courses out there to suit all budgets, like buying a Ferrari rather than a Focus if you want the best you have to pay for it, and there's downsides as well as upsides. If you can't afford it, you go with what you can, we're spoilt for choice nowadays and there's some lovely courses out there for well under �1000pa.

In complete agreement Chris. It is no different for men but there is a smaller pool of ladies that can afford it. The majority of members at Moortown are business men. I am sure you will not disagree that the vast majority of top jobs are taken by men rather than women. There just isn't enough women around that can afford it.

Not sure I agree about the ladies being more into the social side than golf. At Moortown, the ladies are very keen to attend social events and are always organising stuff but when it comes to the competitions they are totally committed to winning. There is no way they don't take their golf seriously no matter how much they also enjoy the social side too. you will see the ladies practising and having lessons just as much as the men. In fact, the ladies section run 4 different teams whereas the men only have a scratch team.

It is, as you say, a choice though. There are lots of clubs with different fees, course, memberships etc. There is definitely something for everyone. I love my club as you get the competition and the social side and my husband needs a tough course as he is a great player.

Don't forget that most private golf clubs are limited by guarantee and on becoming a member you become a shareholder. As such, you would be entitled to share of the equity on the winding up of the club. Given that most 18 hole courses occupy 100+ acres of land, often in prime locations, golf courses (or the land on which they are located) are valuable assets. Traditionally, the entrance fee was the cost of buying your share of the previous investment that the members had made in that club.

Like most clubs, we have all but done away with the entrance fee - now down to �400. But this can have serious implications for the club. It is far less likely that a club would invest in an aggressive improvement program these days for fear of members finding somewhere else to play whilst the work was being carried out.

Richard

Our joining fee does indeed cover becoming a part owner of the club and when you think of the prime real estate it is a bargain - but of course it would never be sold. The steep joining fee/annual subs means there is money available to invest in the course and facilities. As a result of this investment the R&A are holding Open Qualifying at the course for the next 5 years. This gives it valuable publicity and kudos which means we get more visitors and societies. Hopefully with visitors and societies helping shore up our overheads then we won't need to increase our subs. We have done some very aggressive improvements over the last 3 years but it has been scheduled for mainly over winter and it hasn't resulted in course closure. The worst that has happened is a couple of holes were closed at one point for a few weeks. We now seem to have twice as many bunkers, a tenth of the trees and they are replacing the trees with a shedload of heather. It is certainly getting tougher!

Good point Richard. There was a club up near me in Bradford, West Bowling. A good course whci was sold to development with each member coming out with �30k+. Joining fees will be charged if the club can get away with it. The more 'exclusive' the club, the more the joining fee will be. Because of the current financial situation and the rise of the nomadic golfer being able to play more or less anywhere eg John Spencer from CGL got us a fourbal for Celtic manor May bank hol mon & Tues: game on Montgomerie, with buggies, night stay and breakfast and a round on 2010 for �175 or might have been less) then 'normal' clubs are struggling and will continue to do so. Membership is their life blood, even moreso last year as the poor weather deterred the nomadic golfer from stepping out. Given that then the prospective memberhas incredible purchasing power and should be able to knock off any joining fee, and a lot more besides. As a member of a club and not wanting to leave, I still will take advantage of playing different courses with CGL as the deals on the courses John Spencer, Al Bostock, Neil Beech, Stu Llaws and Paul Sherwin get are second to none. Last Sat Forest Pines �30 with Coffee and Bacon sandwiches....we even got a �8.50 refund as the first nine were on temporary due to frost. Apologies if this sounds lika an advert for CGL but if you love playing golf, putting stats put to one side (and in my case chipping stats) then the affordable opportunities are there.

We are a proprietary club, opened in 1990. We charged joining fees up to 2008. The joining fee rate at the time of dropping it was �600 (though it could be paid at �60 per year for 10 years. We did not increase the annual subscriptions at the same time like so many other clubs have done. Furthermore I introduced a discount of future years to all those that had paid their joining fees as I thought that it was right to give existing members the same benefit as new members. To date I have given back �280 in the past 5 years to all members that had paid their whole joining fees. The downside to not having a joining fee is that members can now move clubs more frequently. From the start of our club we have had no discrimination with women paying the same as men. Exactly the same rights so why pay less? I have introduced an introductory membership at a discount while at the same time promising to even this out with existing members, just another sign of proprietary clubs working for the members benefit in keeping their fees as low as possible! If you are within a 1/2 hour drive from here then do come along!

Judy, fair enough, I was speaking from my own experience, I guess the ladies who are willing to pay for the higher class of club must be more serious about the game than the girls I see out at my course and other local public courses - and that's why they pay the extra for the benefit of playing somewhere like your place. Unfortunately with the sport (and indeed most sports in the public eye) being male dominated, there will always be a smaller taking among the fairer species; maybe the increased coverage the LPGA is getting now will change that in the way that increased coverage of the men's game in the last 10 years has attracted a new male generation to the sport.