Out of bounds

My playing partner hit his ball OOB off the tee and proceeded to play a provisional ball which he informed he was doing. He found his first ball which lay on a path outside of the white stakes which was obviously out of bounds. The area between the fairway and the white stakes is fairly thick rough , under the rules is he able to drop the ball within the rough as near as possible to where he thinks it went OOB ?

Ryan, as he was OOB then he has to continue play with his provisional. The penalty for OB is stroke and distance. He cannot drop where the ball is out of bounds.

Ryan,

The way you have asked this question, the answer is No. They are past the OoB Markers (white stakes).

In asking your question, is there a simple mis-understanding that a 'free drop' off a path being available can bring a ball back in bounds? The answer again is No.

So in essence the way forward is to play a provisional ball ( 3 off the tee ) as the ball that wen OOB can no longer be played ?

Yes, Ryan, once a ball is out of bounds it is dead.

My understanding is that it isn't even a provisional ball - if the ball went out of bounds, the penalty is stroke and distance and you retake your shot from as near as possible the original spot, in this case the teeing ground. You only play a provisional balll if you beleive your original ball may be lost.

Greg,

The Rule states "if a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds". It's if in doubt, play a provisional.

"My playing partner hit his ball OOB off the tee and proceeded to play a provisional ball which he informed he was doing".

A he seemingly knew his ball was OOB then his second ball was not a Provisional Ball regardless of what he said. It was the Ball in Play. Only if thre is doubt may you play a provisional.

D H,

The 2nd ball is a provisional ball until it is confirmed that the original ball had finished OoB. If a Player declares he is playing a PB, even when they think the original is definately OoB, that is OK.

"If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1." Note the words 'may be'. If he knows the ball it OOB, then whatever he says, the second ball is not a PB.

A lot of nitpicking going on here. The opening poster is the one who stated that the ball had gone out of bounds, not the player, he just elected to play a provisional and informed his partner. When the ball was found to be OOB then he should have continued with his provisional.

How many times have you thought a ball was OOB only to find it just in, having had a good bounce etc. so please Greg and DH, get off your high horses.

Question?

How do you determine that a ball is OoB?

There is no 'known or virtually certain' clause in Rule 27, only in Rules 24, 25 & 26.

It's nice to see that the debates are going to be just as interesting as previously, even with something as mundane as OOB. Mind you, in golf is any rule deliberation mundane? Probably not...

John, I must be doing well if you're telling me to get off my high horse ;-)

I havn't been playing this game long, but it's clear that the rules of golf are all about nitpicking. It wouldn't be any fun if you didn't spend 2 hours in the bar afterwards arguing about whether you were entitled to releif from that bunker full of water!

Greg,

This is why they publish a book that holds 1200 Decisions, telling us how to use the 34 Rules of Golf.

It's not the Rules that are about nit picking but Rules of Golf Forums. If the answer to a post was simply 'look at rule xx' then this type of forum would lose much of its interest and purpose in life. However, to nit pick, debating the Rules requires pedantry.

It would have helped if both of you had read the post with a little care before attempting to ridicule anyone's particular answers. You know who you are, especially DH our current rules expert and handicap overseer.

There was no intention to ridicule any one and I can't see how what was written could be inferred to be.

The answers you and The Lyth were correct in respect of the basic question about the action to be taken with the second ball. Having read the early posts carefully. it seemed possible that other readers could be misled by your describing the second ball as a provisional. It was not.

We were told by the OP, without any contrary indication, that the ball was hit OOB. The presumption must be that the player also had that opinion. Therefore the first ball was no longer the ball in play and the second ball was not a provisional according to the definitions. It 'is OOB' is not it 'may be OOB'.

I am flattered to think that you describe me as your current rules (and handicapping) expert. As it happens I am a working and fully qualified referee and like to think that posting here might help some posters with their understanding. I also welcome others' views as I am sure there are posters around who have more experience and knowledge than I.

Incidentally, you may not agree with what I say but I am a little surprised by the personal attack in your post.

If you read the posts again you should find that I never called it a provisional ball, I just said he would have to carry on by using his provisional ball. You cannot assume that the player said it was OOB.

Personal attack, you are sensitive, DH.

"If you read the posts again you should find that I never called it a provisional ball, I just said he would have to carry on by using his provisional ball."

" I just said ..... provisional ball."

??

No wonder the game is in such a state if we have referees of your calibre on the circuit,. I would dread trying to understand one of your interpretations of a rule.

The old tactic. If you're losing the argument attack the opposition's character.

Well you certainly are a character, DH, that's for sure.

OK guys, Moderator head on.

A Rules Official (person, not a position) deals with the language the Rules are written in and most don't like to converse in what I call 'Player language'.

Forums like this uses that player language, unlike Forums like The Leith Society which only deals with the Rules.

It is common to say afterwards that a ball was hit OoB, at that moment that was not known, but 99% of us know that. Its just like someone saying "That might be OoB, I'd better play another". The vast majority of people on here will accept that as a declaration od a Provisional Ball, even though it is not technically.

OK guys, stay civil.

The poster is fairly new to golf i would imagine. I Wonder why clubs are finding it hard to attract new / younger / junior members, when a simple answer would have been fine, but instead they see members having rather petty arguements. If that is members clubs are like, when being technically right is more important than actually answering the new members questions i wonder !!

Tim,

I think that in many Members Clubs you will find a very big difference between Social Golf and Competition Golf. I for one will not be 100% within the Rules in a social game but put a Competition Card in my hand and that changes.

At least with Golf we can almost guarentee that every decision that counts is the right one, where as in Football, they have problems at almost every game.

I would much rather discuss the actions after one thinks a ball has gone into a hazard and what are the options, as against explaining 'The Offside Rule'.

David I am by no means advocating playing outside the rules. The thread just reminded me of many a discussion i have witnessed in the clubhouse. The original question was about a drop regardless of whether the second ball was a provisional or the 'ball in play'. The answer is the same either way !!! Why not just ask the poster to clarify if they knew it was oob before the second was played ? As for the inference that golf will become like football with the smallest change in attitudes is also rather scaremongering, but that is again off the point of the thread. I just think that some would rather argue over pedandics ( which werent even the point of the question ) rather than enjoy the fantastic game.

Well said Tim. I think you mean 'semantics'.

Tim,

"As for the inference that golf will become like football with the smallest change in attitudes"

Who suggested this?

"I think you mean 'semantics' "

Is this being pedantic? ;-)

David Having reread your last post, i must apologise. I misunderstood the last section about the offside rule. I took it as golf rules being more important and worthy of dicussion than football rules. Touche D H, i cant even find a definition of sermantics on Google !! Lol

Semantics ( straight from the dictionary )... pertaining to the meaning of words. Branch of linguistic research concerned with studying changes in meaning of words. Hope this helps chaps.

If I am playing in a matchplay competition and my opponent says - 'I think that is out of bounds, I will play another' there is no way I will accept that as a provisional ball. The player has to declare the ball as a provisional and it is their responsibility to make sure their opponent is aware. I am never 100% certain if a ball has made it out of bounds so would always declare my second attempt a provisional - same if I think my ball might be lost - always declare it as provisional. I learnt this the hard way!

That seems pretty clear to me Judy.

But Judy & Mike...

If your opponent were to use the wording you state, would you ask them for clarification? ie. Would you ask "Do you mean you're playing a provisional?"? Or would you let them crack on and do it, then penalise them when they find their first ball in bounds?

I understand the rules are there for a reason, but I do firmly believe the more experienced/educated need to make the effort to educate those newer to the game, even in competition (well certainly club competition, if it's more serious then I guess competitors should know the score).