playing to handicap

i wonder why you get a handicap reduction for playing to par, after all if the sss is always 2 shots more than the par ( which it is at least every week at my club ) then why not give the correct handicap to start with, i thought the idea of a handicap was so =everyone would go round in net level.

The main point of a handicap is that should apply on all courses not just your own. Whether it actually works in practice is another debate...

The SSS (or CSS in a competition) is meant to represent the difficulty of the course and not the just the par. After all, a course where every par 4 is 250 yards would be somewhat easier than if they are all 450 yards.

So on your last point, it should be so that everybody goes round in net SSS/CSS.

Hi Alan, i wasnt aware that you did get a handicap reduction for playing to par. When we played together i was net -1 on a course where the sss was 1 less than par. This didnt result in me getting cut.

Sherwood Forest - Par 71, SSS 73 Hollinwell - Par 72, SSS 74

Play to par on either and you will get chopped.

Alan,

First, when you talk about Hcp forget about 'par' because it has nothing to do with it. SSS/CSS are they only things relevent.

An easy course will normally have a SSS below Par and a hard course a SSS above Par.

sorry Alan i misunderstood your original post. members of a course will have their original handicap calculated against the sss not the par score, so if the sss is 2 shots higher as you suggest, then playing to par will result in a reduction.

Alan

Is your SSS 2 higher than your par, or is it that your CSS is regularly rising 2 above SSS?

Alan,

Also remember to put scores into here from the correct tees you played off. It's no good playing off Whites, then entering your scores off Yellows.

the sss is 2 above par every week as the par was done from the yellow and we play off the white, the css then may knock it up another 1 or 2, playing to par on my course will have you chopped in no time

Most courses I play the sss is a couple below the par. Usually 69-70 so you need to shoot 3 under Hcap to get a drop. Dave CAC handed Geordie.

white sss is 74

Back Tees or 'whites' are usually placed so the course plays the longest, but that is not always the case. Some courses put the whites forward of yellows and drop the par but the SSS will stay the same.

A 490yd par 5 off the yellows may become a 470yd par 4 off the whites. The problem then is that the S.I. should also change but in many cases they don't.

Getting to know the in's and out's of our Hcp system is not that easy.

it just seems daft when i would guess that most course members play 90% of their golf on their home course yet they don't get the correct h/cap for their course in the first place...rant over

Many Golf Clubs put people in charge of sections they don't know enough about. I always laugh that a Greens Chairman will tell the Head Greenkeeper what to do. Who is the expert here?

About 75% of golf played on many courses is off the 'Tee of the day', yet many talk about the length of the courses off the back. The two don't match.

We had a guy at Filey who claimed he "birdied the par 5 almost everytime he played it" until he was told that hole was only playing 400yds because of work being done to it.

Alan Gunnigle

You can stop ranting. I checked your course - Par 72, SSS 74. Assuming the CSS doesn't vary from SSS in a comp, if you shoot a nett 72, you have played 2 better than handicap and therefore need chopping.

Dave Patrick

You also seem to be confusing Par with SSS. When you say you have to shoot 3 under handicap to get chopped, you are talking about shooting 3 under the par, if SSS/CSS is 3 under the par for the course. Shooting 3 under handicap will always get you chopped.

James...tough crowd, still seems daft, give a h/cap 2 less to start with and all is well

Alan,

"James...tough crowd, still seems daft, give a h/cap 2 less to start with and all is well"

What do you mean??????

well if i was given a 10 handicap and played to par but was then reduced to 8, why not just give me the 8?

How many times does it have to be said!

Playing to par is not necessarily playing to handicap. Playing to SSS (or CSS if it changes) is playing to handicap.

If you played to par on "Par 72, SSS 68" course you would be playing 4 strokes worse than handicap.

That is the function of SSS - to put a number on the difficulty, or otherwise, of the course.

Once again the frailties of the handicap system have reared its ugly head. I see no need whatsoever for SSS/CSS, after all pars are initially given for holes of certain length.

The majority of players in the world cannot get to these pars in less shots than the 1,2 or 3 shots necessary before the 2 putts are taken into account.

The professionals play to par, so should we.

Exactly!

JP,

I have a question for you. Here in Leeds we had two courses a few miles apart which both had SSS of 74. One was a par72 and the other a par 69. Also there was/is a par70 with a SSS 66 so how would you level the playing field for members of these three courses.

On my regular visits to these I shot around par everytime at one, couldn't get within 3 at another and shot 6 or 7 under on the other many times.

I have no idea about the average course up North, Lyth, but down here we don't seem to have many of the very short variety that some members on here get good handicaps at.

The SSS only makes life difficult or easy, depending which way round it is to club members, because as soon as they go away no one gives them/takes away the extra shots they do or do not need. So it is a mockery.

All good players play at courses where the SSS is higher than the par and I don't blame them.

Why cannot we accept the fact that all courses have their own little quirks and some are a darn sight easier than others.

As we all know the handicap system just does not work, far too many differences between the bandit winners and the useless bottom enders, of which I am one.

My new club is 1000 yards shorter than Caversham Heath and with a par of 69 does not attract category one players because it is too tight for long hitters to open their shoulders, so they really feel intimidated.

You are a very good player, Lyth, so have the game to play anywhere, us lesser mortals play for enjoyment, with the hope of playing to our handicaps.

John

The fact that par is an appropriate yardstick for professionals is a red herring in the context of the everyday amateur golfer. The range of length for the allocation of a par 4 is 220 yards to 500 yards. For the amateur, achieving par on the vast majority of par 4s of, say, 420 yards or over, is not highly likely. Achieving par on a par 4 of, say, 320 yards or less, is much, much more of a likely proposition. From that we can deduce that perhaps par is not really appropriate as a target for the ordinary golfer. SSS sets a target for the round as a whole, taking into account the mixture of short and long par 3s, 4s and 5s. You don't have to watch much professional golf to realise that 400+ yards is probably the norm for championship course for the pros. It's a different game although we all aspire to make some connection between our game and the game of the pros.

The process of allocation of SSS to courses has been refined and refined. I accompanied the County Assessment team last week when our course SSS was re-assessed and was impressed by the method used and the attention to detail in the current system. It has been developed by very experienced golfers and it's the best measure we have of identifying the comparative difficulties of different courses.

Lyth, isn't this the major issue with the UK system in that someone's handicap is really relevant to that course only (official club handicaps).

we had two courses a few miles apart which both had SSS of 74. One was a par72 and the other a par 69. Also there was/is a par70 with a SSS 66 so how would you level the playing field for members of these three courses.

Unless we applied the US or European system you can't can you ?

Darren,

A 4hcp at Roundhay (P70, SSS66) would need to shoot 78 at either Moortown (P69,SSS74 - Old Course) or Moor Allerton (P72, SSS74) where a Moortown 4Hcp would need to shoot level par at Roundhay instead of the 9 over on his own course.

It would be interesting to work out what percentage of each Cat Hcps play to their hcp away from home most.

Darren

No - you are missing the point of SSS. Two courses of 74 means that a scratch golfer, under average course and weather conditions (i.e. not huge areas of unusually punishing rough and not gale force wind and lashing rain) should be able to achieve a score of 74 on both courses - the difference in par between the 2 courses does not come into it. He would also be expected to shoot a 66 on the third course you mentioned.

Scaling it up, but with less certainty, an 8 handicap could expect to shoot 82 gross on the 2 more difficult courses and 74 on the third course. The US or European systems are no more accurate at determining the difficulty of courses than the SSS system.

Sorry, James, whoever you are, SSS is completely flawed and of no use to the game in general for the simple reason that handicaps are never adjusted when one goes away to play a match.

In my days a par 3 was anything up to 250 yards, a par 4 up to 475 yards and par fives were over that distance. Course length was always over 6000 yards, some even longer at 6600 and with the equipment of the day were always a good test.

Handicaps moved up and down in whole numbers, maximum of 24 and the overall standards were far higher than they are today, with all the latest technology, which has only produced prodigious length at the expense of shot making.

JP,

Why should your hcp change when you go to play another course. Your hcp shows your level of ability (or so it should). How would our 'nomad golfers' on here fare then?

Lyth, surely that is why SSS was introduced in the first place. We all know that when playing a match against a club that is recognised to be far more difficult that a 15 handicapper would be a far better player than a 15 at the easier course.

I don't play club matches anymore but when I did, for Sherfield Oaks, a match against Donnington Grove soon made us realise that our handicaps were not sufficient against members of that club.

What goes on with the players who do not belong to clubs is no concern of mine and I never consider their views.

A handicap system, designed to all cross the line together has been shown to be flawed at every competition held, made worse by both the SSS and CSS.

JP,

Roundhay lost it's good players to other courses around when they found it was easier to play to there hcp on the longer, harder courses.

Team matches will always favour the 'home' team because they know the course better.

Also, a hcp, when you play the same course all the time, does not show your real ability. Too many people play only their 'home' course most of the time and then complain when someone beats them with a score they can't see as legit, shouting "Bandit".

team matches don't always favour the home team, i think they favour the team from the "hardest" course more often

The question then as to be asked.

How do you define which is the 'hardest' course?

without playing them it's hard yardage,par and layout but mainly by playing them

i think this proves Davids point that you need some measure of difficulty for each course !!!! in my opinion sss does this pretty well.

James, when I have some time I will go back and re-read the SSS information guide.

Maybe I just misinterpreted or believed in a fallacy that the US course rating/slope system was a more stringent analysis of a golf course than simply the SSS.

Alan,

Which would you say was the 'hardest' course. Royal Birkdale (SSS 73) v. Hillside (SSS74)?

Darren,

If you look at both systems, they are very similar. It is how the information is used and the amount of imput golfers are required to include.

If we in the UK recorded all our scores (as the US expect) then the SSS system would show more flaws than it does. How many of us who put all our scores on here now have a different Hcp on GS as against CONGU? I do, it's 2 against 5.6.

Tim, we don't need an SSS to tell us which course is harder than another one. We all know the courses off by heart.

Where the SSS falls down is it makes no allowance whatsoever for the traveling player, one has to play off ones home handicap and if one comes from an easy course, then playing to ones handicap at the harder course is nigh on impossible.

When I played Hillside, Lyth I felt it had the best 18 greens I had played on anywhere.

I also thought it was tougher than Royal Birkdale, probably because I won a Eurogolf Pro Am a tBirkdale partnering Jimmy Hulme of Gullane G.C. Another anecdote, my caddie that day was Alfie Fyldes (Tom Watsons old caddie).

JP,

I can't grasp your argument when you say "if one comes from an easy course, then playing to ones handicap at the harder course is nigh on impossible."

Surely if a player comes from a P70 - SSS68 to a P70 - SSS72 he will find the latter easier to play to their Hcp, after all they can now drop four more shots to Par.

John

Your dismissive "whoever you are" comment on me shows exactly who you are. You have no time for the opinion of anyone else and obviously think that, because you've "been there, done that", your views should go completely unchallenged.

James Taylor, not dismissive at all, we usually like to know with whom we are discussing threads. You have not submitted a profile, so to me, you are just another keyboard warrior, hiding, and therefore, cannot be taken seriously.

My views can always be challenged, James, but to do that you must have a very good knowledge of this game over the last 60 years.

Post a profile and let us all see who you are, what you have achieved, what you now play off.

In the medal today the CSS was raised from par 69 to 72, what a joke for a course in pristine condition, no rain and little wind.

john. this is my gripe. so for someone who managed to shoot par would be (in my opinion) wrongly handicapped. it doesn.t matter how many times or how many people tell me..i don.t get it

Alan. I am with you on this, the system is unnecessary for the simple reason that ones handicap never alters when one plays a match away, so why have it.

We all know which courses play more difficult, mine is a classic for bringing one down to earth.

We do not have any low handicappers because the course is very demanding on positioning, accuracy and shot making, yet is only 6100 yards.

JP,

The reason lower hcp's don't play on your course too often is because the CSS can rise the SSS(?) from 69 to 72 in a medal. That is my gripe with the system at present, CSS can produce some real wrong numbers in Clubs with only a few low hcp's.

Lyth, having the CSS rise must surely help the low handicappers come down or easily maintain what they have.

My course is way too difficult for the majority of players. Hitting down the middle of the fairway does not guarantee you a shot to the green because it has to be an exact distance down the fairway to avoid the very large trees that guard the dog legs and the greens.

We also have some very long holes, par 3's and par 4's but because of only one par 5 overall length is only just over 6100 yards

My understanding is that when a handicap is first awarded (and subsequently adjusted) this is done against the SSS, not the par. This is done because par is not necessarily a reflection of how difficult the course is and therefore giving a player a handicap based on their score against the par would not necessarily be a fair reflection of their ability. SSS is an ATTEMPT to take the varying difficulty of courses into account. On this basis, my first club handicap (against a best card of 3 of 17 over par gross) would've been different had I submitted the same scores at a different course. For example: -

Minchinhampton Cherington (white) - Par 70, SSS 71. I have been given a handicap of 16

Woodlands Signature (white) - Par 70, SSS 69. I would have been given a handicap of 18

I think it was said earlier that score should be compared to the SSS rather than the par when playing any course, but especially away from home. Handicap adjustments are always against the SSS (or CSS in comps) and not the par. I know when I am playing away from my home course I guage my final score against the SSS and use the par as a guide for what I should be trying to score on each hole

We need to accept that no system will ever be perfect, even if all golfers were honest. I do think though, that the SSS system does a better job of giving a golfers a handicap that travels fairly than just using par would

What do "we" want from a handicapping system?

1) We want to be competitive with all golfers from all clubs. 2) We want to be competitive against all courses irrespective of difficulty.

Can a 10h'cap guy from from an easy course be competitive against a 10 h'cap guy from a hard course? Is the 10 h'cap guy from the easy course going to struggle on the hard course?

We all know what the answers to those questions are. The answer, in my humble opinion, is a slope rating type of system.

Should handicaps be adjusted based on how difficult your home course is on any given day? The variations, on a week by week basis, come about in the main due to the weather. All that needs to happen over a period of a few weeks is for there to be bad weather and any number of players could end up going up 1 shot. But their playing ability hasn't changed, so why the lift in handicap?

So those that have just had a lift in handicap go and play an Open elsewhere on an easier course...

"Should handicaps be adjusted based on how difficult your home course is on any given day?"

I believe that is what CSS is for. If I'm right, if your handicap is correct you should only play to it in perfect conditions and only a few times per year

As to what do we want? What I want is for all honest golfers being able to play against each other on a level playing field and the winner being whoever played best that day

John

Apologies for the lateness of a response as I have been busy and am just catching up with posts..

A keyboard warrior I may be, but I am certainly not hiding. I cannot see anything in your profile which would lead you to take a high moral stance on the issues being discussed. If it is of any relevance, my handicap is 16 and I play around 100 qualifiers a year. I have served as a Club Secretary for 12 years and have been involved in the trials leading up to the introduction of the Central Database of Handicaps. None of this should carry any weight in the discussions as the power, or otherwise, of the argument is what counts.

No need to apologise, James, it is not a requirement to answer every post.

Chris,

Indeed the CSS is adjusted by scores on the day, but where it fails is in its calculation. On a SSS70 course all Cat1 entries could be Nett 70's, Cat2 could range from Nett 69 to 72 but if Cat3 produce some very low scores the days CSS could be 69 and no 'pulls' in Cat1 or 2. But if Cat3 had high scores, the CSS could be 71 and most Cat1 & 2 are 'pulls'. Why should scores done by Cat3 players determine what happens to Cat1 & 2's?

i agree with that, the last question sums it up well

It is a fact that it is far easier for the higher handicaps to produce scores far lower than the low handicappers and, as Lyth says this then distorts the CSS.

There is no necessity to have SSS and CSS, par is the target we all attempt to play to.

JP,

If we didn't play this game with a hcp then Par is the target for us all.

BUT

We do have hcp's and to try and work a hcp out on Par is impossible.

Here is an example.

Bert plays at a Par 72, 5430yd course and averages around 80. You give him 8hcp. Ted plays up the road at a Par 72, 7230yd course and also averages around 80 so you give him the same hcp. Then you want to adjust these hcp's when they play together on either course. So if they play at Bert's course, Ted may play off say what?

Scratch (0) would be the answer, just as Bert would play off 16 at Ted's course?

Although both courses are Par 72's, one has a SSS of 66/67 while the other is 74/75, so Bert is 14hcp and Ted is 6hcp, but the thing is at the end of the day the answer to both systems is the same.

Your examples are really extreme, Lyth, but nevertheless the SS does not work because when they play against each other they are both 8 handicap and we know who would win. don't we.

The adjustments that should be taking place just does not happen, thus making a mockery of the SS system.

We have to face the fact that throughout the world handicaps are a means of allowing someone to win something that they would ordinarily be unable to.

We see it all the time, these Pot Hunters as I call them.

On reflection I doubt very much if a card par of 72 could be correct with an overall length of 5430 yards.

JP,

You wrote "Your examples are really extreme, Lyth, but nevertheless the SS does not work because when they play against each other they are both 8 handicap and we know who would win. don't we".

That is the point I keep making to you John. Because of SSS, Bert would be 14hcp and Ted 6hcp, even though they both shoot 80's on their own course.

Also I didn't take the course length to total extreme. I'll work it out and post later today. It will be SSS 64 to SSS 79 I think.

Don't you honestly believe that when these new courses are built that par and SSS should be the same. Would not take much working out, would it.

Golf was designed with pars set for certain distance of holes, in my day, up to 250 yards was a par 3, up to 475 yards was a par 4 and everything over that was a par five.

Only the better players would be able to get home in 2 shots on a par five and then not always.

Even with an SSS of one shot, would someone please tell me where this is going to be picked up by the average player.

Midweek Stableford 2nd June - Winner 38 points, 2nd 34 points with a total of five players over 30 points, the rest, 22 players spread down to 15 points at last place. A difference of 23 points from first place to last place. Yes, the handicap system works. I don't think.

JP,

You wrote "Even with an SSS of one shot, would someone please tell me where this is going to be picked up by the average player." But is a 'scratch' player average?

Filey was/is Par 70, SSS69. It is possible to reach the only par5 sometimes and four of the par 4's are reachable in certain conditions so that gives a scratch player five chances of a birdie.

As for all finishing equal? why can Manchester City beat Mancester United 5 - 0? or Preston win 6-3 at Leeds and still go down? It's how you play on the day that gives us a range of scores.

"Midweek Stableford 2nd June - Winner 38 points, 2nd 34 points with a total of five players over 30 points, the rest, 22 players spread down to 15 points at last place. A difference of 23 points from first place to last place. Yes, the handicap system works. I don't think."

John, it's because humans are inconsistent and don't play to their handicap every round. Three weeks ago in the May medal I shot 103. Today in the June medal I shot 94. Conditions were very similar and both rounds were played on the Avening course.

Most golfers have variation in their scoring and that's why they score 38 points one week and 22 the next. To play to handicap I need to shoot 87. I haven't done that for a couple of months at least

John

You are talking nonsense. No handicap system is ever going to ensure that everyone ends up with the same score. We are talking human beings here. How many of us have scored, say, nett 70 and nett 84 in consecutive rounds?

The current handicap system is certainly not going to, that's for sure, James.. I could say it is you talking nonsense, as your arguments are flawed.