North vs South : availability

Thought i would start a new topic if nobody minds to perhaps help Darren and the two captains to get some idea of how many people can attend, and on which days.

Both days for me.

As has already beenh stated, 80% of those taking part last year stayed overnight at the hotel and played in the friendly game on the sunday afternoon.

What has been proposed is really no different than previous years other than making the Sunday game part of the overall contest.

Perhaps one of the modern breed of player could tell me why 4 ball better ball and stableford seem to be the order of the day now. Foursomes and singles were old school and were introduced in the better clubs so that everyone who played on a Sunday morning could get home in time for dinner. How times have changed.

Royal West Norfolk still operate this way with only 2 balls or foursomes played at week-ends.

Fousomes is a quick round as the 2 not driving are up the fairway waiting for the balls to arrive and John F's suggestion of playing the singles as a fourball will be quicker again because not so many individual matches.

I'm hoping to be there for both days

Waiting up the fairway is how the game is played, certainly at county level, also helps with locating the wayward shots.

Nothing wrong with your initial post Darren.

The ones who did not stay overnight were because they were near to the venue so stayed at home.

The sign-ups for both the North and South teams are already up and running. So get your name down, Darren.

Both days for me.

as John p said in foursomes the 2nd player should be down the fairway waiting to play the 2nd shot, unless your partner puts one OOB & then it's a long walk back to the tee! 

http://www.golfshake.com/golf/view/6335/player/    ; Team South :D

I understand the foursomes logic to save time, especially if we are having the comp over two days with singles on the second day. That said, as I have stated before, Kevin makes a good point, not to many shots to the pound!!! We will not please everyone but I do understand the value for money argument, why not have fourball better ball and singles or Four ball both days.

Will certainly not appeal to me, that's for sure. Totally fed up with 4 ball better ball, especially after last year.

JP - I agree and would probably prefer the foursomes and singles ideas, saving time on Sunday and keeping energy in the locker for Monday, like I said, we can't please everyone. I'm up for it whatever is decided.  I would rather play the game that the majority want.

Foursomes and singles for me. Only played foursomes once and would love to play it again. Great foremat. It may all depend on how many can play both days and at moment there are more North than South (32 North against 19 South)

 I agree with the point made by Kevin Hewitt a few posts above.Given a choice I think I would prefer any format the lets me play a whole round on the Sunday instead of an alternate shot format. Also assuming an open draw one will most likely be playing with an unfamiliar partner so the foursomes idea of playing to your partners strenghts really would not apply. I dont understand the fixation with saving time as we are all staying in the hotel over night (Sunday players) so a slowish round in the July sunshine is not a real problem.   However if the majority prefer Sunday foursomes then so be it - I will still be up for it. As for the competition being over the 2 days what about those who would like to play on Monday but cant attend for some reason on the Sunday???  I`m still looking forward to it but there are obviously some issues to be sorted out,

regards,

Michael

Michael, I suggest you and Kevin play a nice full round on Sunday together and then you will be satisfied, whilst the rest of us can play a serious match.of our own.

Michael, For those that can't make the Sunday but can the Monday then I'm sure there will still be places.

Hi John,

As I have already said if the majority prefer to go with the proposed format then I dont have a problem with doing the same. I may even discover what I have been missing ie the team aspect of the pairing and helping my partner and vice versa,

kindest regards,

Michael.

I agree that we should play with both days counting towards the final result.  Obviously the numbers may not be even for the two sides, so the players whose scores will count from the better represented side should be selected from a random draw.

I agree that singles played in a fourball as John F has suggested would be the best additional format, but I think this should be played on the Sunday.  The North v South has always been played as a 4BBB format, and I don't think there is a need to break that tradition if an additional day of play with singles matches is added.  Playing both of these formats will mean that both team and individual matchplay is used. 

I understand the points being made regarding 4BBB vs Foursomes, and I have been guilty of being the 'carried' player in a pair in 4BBB before.  However, on the two occaisions that spring readily to mind for this I have been the player who has won the match clinching hole.  I have also done the carrying a couple of times and it does put you under additional pressure to perform.  For that reason, I think the pair that plays as a team in 4BBB will almost always win out.

If there is a genuine desire for foursomes to be played, why not split the extra day between foursomes and singles?  Players could advise their captain of their preference (if any) for the extra day and captains can make the appropriate match-ups for Foursomes with the remaining players playing singles matches.  If there are 30 players for each side on Sunday we could have 10 singles matches and 10 Foursomes matches.  Will make a much more interesting Monday and the Captain's order of play will take on a much greater significance. 

I enjoy Foursomes, but for the N v S?  Nah, not iinterested.  I agree it's a quick and easy format and works OK at clubs but I just don't find it satisfying, and I honestly don't think time is an issue.  The Abbey is not a long or hard course and doesn't take hours to get round and if most people are staying over what's the problem with fatigue for the first day?   4BBB and singles I'd go with if we do it as a 2 day format but never with Foursomes as a last day option.  If we do have foursomes I'd rather go the whole hog and have Foursomes and 4BBB on the Sunday and singles on the Monday. 

Same for me Tim, 4ball better ball not interested especially after last year.

Do not wish to see any more bickering on this subject so I will gracefully relinquish my chance of Captaining the South Team and pass the reins to Tim Greaves. I will not be taking part in this years event.

The winner is always the event and the enjoyment we all have.  To get the consensus and thoughts direct I've created a quick survey, PM hopefully over your way shortly so you can complete the online form.

Thanks.

I enjoy Foursomes, but for the N v S?  Nah, not iinterested.  I agree it's a quick and easy format and works OK at clubs but I just don't find it satisfying, and I honestly don't think time is an issue.  The Abbey is not a long or hard course and doesn't take hours to get round and if most people are staying over what's the problem with fatigue for the first day?   4BBB and singles I'd go with if we do it as a 2 day format but never with Foursomes as a last day option.  If we do have foursomes I'd rather go the whole hog and have Foursomes and 4BBB on the Sunday and singles on the Monday.

I agree, lets have 3 games!!!http://www.golfshake.com/scripts/ckeditor362/plugins/smiley/images/regular_smile.gif" title="smiley" width="20" />

There maybe some middle ground here. Why not split the Sunday into 2 halves. Those that want to play foursomes go out in the morning followed by those that ONLY want to play 4 BBB. That way it's a bit more like the actual Ryder cup & everyone gets to play their preferred format with both halves going towards the total score.

Now I can't see anyone having objections to this.......................???

Well I`m very sorry to see John sees this as bickering. It certainly is not . Any group will have differing opinions and those of us who offered our opinions surely have the right to do so. We are only engaging in a frank but friendly discussion to see what the players think of various formats.  For my own part I always stated that I would be prepared to go along with whatever the majority wanted.

regards,

Michael.

The discussions are certainly frank, but they have not been very friendly.

It appears that the South has to bend over backwards to accommodate the wishes of the North in every respect. The venue is a dump and not fit for a quality competition. We have to kow tow to a 4 Ball better ball format which, as we all know is not the way to play a fair competition with some of the dodgy handicaps the South have had to put up with.

A format that takes this advantage away is decried. Don't you ever want to win fair. Cast your mind back to Belton Woods and the shenanigans that went on there.

Thanks for that John.  Care to suggest an alternative, suitable venue and also let us know just how many of us are cheating on our handicaps and by how many?  Luckily it's only limited to us from the North and that sort of thing has never happened in the team you've represented.

I can't belive you've just said that, really I can't.  Do you know how bitter that sounds?

It was meant to sound bitter, Tim, because last  year, I was bitter. 7 pars and a birdie against us is not 19 handicap golf, by my standards, maybe yours but not mine. That is why I feel that 4 ball better ball should be consigned to the dustbin of history and have the match decided by the much fairer foursomes and singles.

I have lost many matches in my lifetime but not that many by unfair means.

Sorry John but I am with Tim.  Your post sounds to me like you are a poor loser and want the rules changed to suit whichever format you think you would win.  The only one coming across as not friendly is you as anyone who disagrees with you does not understand the game and how it should be played. 

I'd like to point out the following: -

• The comp has always been 4BBB.  It has not been 'set-up' to suit any team
• The rules are the same for everyone
• There was an open vote on the venue this year which everyone had the right to comment on.  The Abbey came out on top in a democratic vote
• The course is irrelevant, it's the same for both teams
• Last year I had seven pars on my card after 15 holes and lost 6 & 4 to the South pair.  I accepted they played well and didn't call them cheats

I'm sorry John, but the only person who is making an issue of things is you.  Yes there are other formats and yes some of them require better team work.  However, given that many of the pairs have never even met before it will be very difficult to go out cold and click as a team.  4BBB is, in my humble opinion, the best format for this situation. 

We play in a venue that is as close to central as possible at a price that is affordable with adequate accomodation for all players.  The venue has been selected based on an open, democratic vote of all parties.  The rules, format and course are the same for everyone. 

I'd like to know why you think the South has to 'bend over backwards' for the North?   It seems to me you want everyone else to bend over backwards to suit you. 

Are here comes my favourite moderator laying down the law. Of copurse you are with Tim, you obviously do not have any scruples either when it comes to fair play.

I'd like to point out the following: -

• The comp has always been 4BBB.  It has not been 'set-up' to suit any team. That does not mean that this should always be so, after all there are many who would like a change.
• The rules are the same for everyone. Assuming that everone has a bona fide handicap, which has not always been the case.
• There was an open vote on the venue this year which everyone had the right to comment on.  The Abbey came out on top in a democratic vote, Seeing as the majority are from the North then it is obvious they do not wish to come further South. Last time you tried it you lost.
• The course is irrelevant, it's the same for both teams. When one is paying good money then one expects a decent course. No one would go and pay a green fee to play there.
• Last year I had seven pars on my card after 15 holes and lost 6 & 4 to the South pair.  I accepted they played well and didn't call them cheats. So you were bordering on being a cheat yourself. 7 pars indeed off your handicap.

John

please stop, you are so wrong on some of your points.  The venue is in the Midlands, some people from the North still have to travel 3 or 4 hours to get to the venue, last year I drove up from Bournmouth straight from a wedding.  It has excellent access from all over the country.  So is it fair to go down to your neck of the woods where even I would still have a 2 hour drive?  Come on.

What you also seem to have forgotten is that I, as the Northern captain, was on the wrong side of a thrashing from the Marshalls - James had only played a few rounds that year and took us apart.  I took that humiliation (because that's what it was) with good grace, being competitive it hurt me like hell but I have never complained - sometimes it happens.

A lot of the Northern team play in the CGL or are bona fide members of respectable clubs - obviously the club handicaps cannot be questioned and the CGL members are controlled with an iron fist by our own Martin Millichip who is not know for his leniency when cutting - so who are these people manipulating their handicaps?  

John,

The fact I am a moderator is irrelevant.  That is my opinion.  And where did I lay down the law?

• That does not mean that this should always be so, after all there are many who would like a change.  From someone who constantly harks back to his day and how things used to be done and how golf should not move with the times I find that an eye opening comment
• Assuming that everone has a bona fide handicap, which has not always been the case.  Golf is run on the honesty of players.  This issue occurs at every club up and down the land and is not restricted to golfshake or the North team
• When one is paying good money then one expects a decent course. No one would go and pay a green fee to play there.  I accept that the condition of the course last year was not great and feel they have weakened the course by taking out the old third (a great matchplay par 3) but the fact remains that the conditions are the same for both teams
• So you were bordering on being a cheat yourself. 7 pars indeed off your handicap.  Actually I played roughly to my handicap due to dropped shots (which happens when you are a mid-handicapper) and had a similar card on Sunday.  Shows to me my handicap was about right in my opinion.  And are you now accusing the South team of having cheats?  I thought it was only the North who cheated?

As regards "you obviously do not have any scruples either when it comes to fair play", that is slander and legally actionable.  You know me better than that and I thought I knew you better.  I am disappointed to say the least as I thought you were a better man than that.  Obviously not. 

Guys - I have had the pleasure of playing in the last two North v South - The venue last year was poor we all agree on that - However I my partner and opposition had fun whilst being competitive. I live in Leicester and regularly travel 2hrs to play a game of golf. I do this to meet up with others who like to play the game. Because of this game I have met many nice people. Allegations of cheating should be voiced at the time not 1 year later. As to the format I have no problem, I will turn up and play whatever. Likewise the location can be another place but it has to have a hotel so stop over is possible and it should be reasonably central as many from North and South have to travel long distances.

Lets stop the arguments and look forward to the game and a drink in the bar with friends.

there must be some golfshakers out there who like the Abbey as it came out on top in the poll.

The biggest decision to be made is that of turning it into a 2 day event rather than throwing insults around about formats and handicaps.

i for one would welcome the change to 2 days, but i can also see why it would be difficult for others.

Let everyone who has an opinion fill in the survey and take onboard the results. I have my preferences, but if more people agree on something different then i will go with it.

If anyone feels that their opinion is more valid than the majority, for whatever reason (format,2 day comp, venue,etc etc) they need to get over it or not play, simple !!!

This is supposed to be the biggest and best event of the year not the biggest arguement !!!

Agree 100% Tim. This is the only event on the golfshake calendar that creates this passion. Perhaps that is an indication to how much it means to people. Lets wait for the result of the poll and see what the majority want.

I play golf for fun, not for a living. When I sign up to an event that includes society handicaps I do so with my eyes wide open, and in all honesty I expect it to be a tough day competitively. I also accept that the organisers offer, in good faith, a decent venue and a decent format irrespective of whether or not they would be my first choice.

Ultimately, I see little point in arguing with friends over a society golf outing. Just looking forward to kicking the butts of those soft southern shandy drinkers...

Round 2 aye ! http://www.golfshake.com/scripts/ckeditor362/plugins/smiley/images/thumbs_up.gif" title="yes" width="20" /> Looking forward to having a shandy with you Bri.http://www.golfshake.com/scripts/ckeditor362/plugins/smiley/images/tounge_smile.gif" title="cheeky" width="20" />

You'll regret it Brian.  You know what happened last time.  Think of your team mates and just say no

Dave, I'll have it waiting on the bar for you - do you want an umbrella in it.

Chris, I think I was 5 over after 4 at Staverton Park and couldn't focus. Finished the next 14 holes 1 under. It would be rude to say no... and besides, its good seeing a southerner take his wallet out.

I've signed myself in as interested and now I've checked me dates and I don't have the kids that weekend nor do I have anything else planned so I'm hoping to play both days. Before I register for the game though and fill in the pole for the format etc. can anyone enlighten me on how much it is likely to cost for both days and the stopover?

I know the original pole about the event etc. said about £90 is that still the case? ?Don't want to sign up fill in the pole then realise it's going to cost more than that and I don't end up coming.

Gary that was one of the driving factors behind venue choice as well as the location and set-up for this event in terms of matchplay course and 18th finishing hole.

So, and I should be confirming details today/tomorrow, the price will be somewhere around that mark.

That's great i've changed my iterested to registered, hopefully i'll get a call up!!!

Drumroll.......................http://www.golfshake.com/scripts/ckeditor362/plugins/smiley/images/thumbs_up.gif" title="yes" width="20" /> http://www.golfshake.com/scripts/ckeditor362/plugins/smiley/images/thumbs_down.gif" title="no" width="20" />

Knowing price ?  just sent you all a PM

Darren, is the £35 just for the golf for both days assuming the comp is being played over 2 days?