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countback

Posted by: user416648 | Tue 11th Sep 2012 10:23 | Last Reply

can anyone clarify this for me

i shot net 66 off h/cap of 7 front nine 34 back nine 39 s.i.1 hole was 13

i lost on countback to net 66 off h/cap 6 front nine 34 back nine 38

does this seem right where do i benefit from my stroke? is it on the s.i.1 or is it simply .5 per nine holes?

re: countback
user202037 [FORUM MODERATOR]
Reply : Tue 11th Sep 2012 11:18

Graham,

Things may have changed since I ran Comps, but most Clubs used 'Back 9' to decide things and not where SI 1 comes to dictate which 9 they used for countback. So using your figures. You had a back9 of 39 (nett 35.5), the other guy had 38 (nett 35), so it seems things have not changed.


Last edit : Tue 11th Sep 2012 11:20
re: countback
user416648
Reply : Tue 11th Sep 2012 12:11

thanks david thats what i thought just checking

re: countback
user52922
Reply : Tue 11th Sep 2012 16:05

Count back is another of my pet hates. In my opinion the lower handicap should take it in event of a tie, after all, he has shot the better golf.

re: countback
user416648
Reply : Tue 11th Sep 2012 16:53

that's the whole point of a handicap.... we have 20 odd members between 6 and 28 and the high handicaps pay the same sweep as everyone else

re: countback
user52922
Reply : Tue 11th Sep 2012 17:54

You forget to stress that the high handicappers have a greater chance of performing on a greater scale than the low handicappers. Perhaps a tie should be shared to satisfy your criteria, Ian H. Far better to share the sweep than give it to someone who has benefited by means of a higher handicap.


Last edit : Tue 11th Sep 2012 17:55
re: countback
user446732
Reply : Tue 11th Sep 2012 22:46

"You forget to stress that the high handicappers have a greater chance of performing on a greater scale than the low handicappers."

Where did you get this information?

Studies in a number of countries have shown that the lower handicap player will win 55% of matches.

Unless you meant that the probability of an (unspecified) high handicapper winning a stroke play event is greater because there are more high handicappers in most handicap competitions than low handicappers.


Last edit : Tue 11th Sep 2012 22:53
re: countback
user446732
Reply : Tue 11th Sep 2012 22:52

"he has shot the better golf."

Handicap comps are about scoring better in relation to your handicap. Why bother with handicaps otherwise? 'Better golf' in absolute terms is only valid in scratch competitions.

re: countback
user52922
Reply : Wed 12th Sep 2012 08:50

DH, you cannot bring a matchplay situation in to strokeplay competition, the two are completely different.

The advantage that the higher handicaps have is that it is far easier to knock five shots off of ones current handicap in comparison top the scratch player who is most unlikely to be shooting five under all the time. The advantage always lies with the high man in medal, stableford etc.

We all know that the current system of handicapping does not achieve what a handicap system is set up to do. i.e. get all across the line at the same irrespective of standard.

I have witnessed this every week in every club that I have been a member of. You Sir, will never convince me that you have got it right, whoever you are.

re: countback
user446732
Reply : Wed 12th Sep 2012 22:09

"The advantage that the higher handicaps have is that it is far easier to knock five shots off of ones current handicap in comparison top the scratch player who is most unlikely to be shooting five under all the time."

As a higher handicapper, do you shoot five under your handicap all the time?

PS. I am not trying to convince you but there are other readers who may be prepared to read the cases made by the home and European unions.

re: countback
user52922
Reply : Thu 13th Sep 2012 09:22

DH - As a higher handicapper, do you shoot five under your handicap all the time?

As it happens, I don't shoot under my handicap, period, in fact I struggle to get anywhere near it, but that is not the reason for my views.

I have played this game for sixty years and can remember the days when handicaps moved in whole numbers and not this decimal cr*p. Having played to scratch and no worse than 6 handicap for over 45 years I have witnessed first hand the bandits of this world, so please do not try and convince me that they do not exist and that the system is not completely flawed.

We all play with our friends and we all know what the pecking order is and who is likely to win in certain situations.

You have to accept that the game has changed dramatically with emphasis placed on power at the expense of skill. If you don't believe that then I am wasting my time.

I played yesterday with my big hitting friend off 6 handicap and we decided that I would play off his drives so that I could put some pressure on him with my short game. We both hit the turn in 39 shots (2 over par) and if I had managed to not 3 putt three times I would have been under par.

Every day I see very high handicaps making half a dozen pars during the course of a round yet sometimes failing to play to their handicap, but coming up against those same pars in matchplay would cause a problem for the low handicapper.

If the system worked then we would not have a spread of 25 points average in competitions.

re: countback
user202037 [FORUM MODERATOR]
Reply : Thu 13th Sep 2012 12:10

JP,

Although I don't agree with your view, I do understand where you are coming from. But your statement : "If the system worked then we would not have a spread of 25 points average in competitions" is flawed. It is not possible for everyone to play the same every time they play so a 'spread' will always be there, even a Pro Event will see a 14/15 stroke spread each day.

re: countback
user410273
Reply : Thu 13th Sep 2012 13:05

I don't like countback. Its artificial and doesn't reflect the fact that you scored as well as the next man over 18 holes. If its a handicap competition, share the prize - a little difficult if its a golf bag for first, followed by a push trolley for second. But the value of the vouchers can be split.

However, its very galling to shoot level par gross, 5 under nett, and lose out by half a shot, on countback to someone who is 10 shots worse than you on the back 9.

re: countback
user52922
Reply : Thu 13th Sep 2012 13:28

Lyth, you have been a professional on tour, so will obviously see things differently.

We had the Jamega tour at my club last week for 2 days and what a disappointment to witness players supposedly at scratch standard fail to break 80.

Scratch today means nothing in my opinion, they are protected by the decimal system, very few are shotmakers, just blasters.

re: countback
user446732
Reply : Thu 13th Sep 2012 18:34

"I have played this game for sixty years and can remember the days when handicaps moved in whole numbers and not this decimal cr*p. Having played to scratch and no worse than 6 handicap for over 45 years I have witnessed first hand the bandits of this world, so please do not try and convince me that they do not exist and that the system is not completely flawed."

The current system has been running less than half that time and has had a number of revisions since aimed at tightening up the system. Europe has effectively taken it on and the only other significant system in the world has more holes than a fishing net. Bandits and vanity handicaps are almost the norm.

IMO bandits here are largely as a result of poor handicap committees. But whatever the system, cheats by their nature will always find a way to beat it.

re: countback
user446732
Reply : Thu 13th Sep 2012 18:40

"Scratch today means nothing in my opinion, they are protected by the decimal system, very few are shotmakers, just blasters."

For those who are interested see.

http://www.congu.com/Myth%206.pdf

re: countback
user52922
Reply : Thu 13th Sep 2012 19:39

DH, perhaps you have the stats for the English Golf Union, the Scots have always produced seemingly better players than us down South. In fact in my day only Scots seemed to get plus handicaps.

As you well know there are Lies, damn lies and statistics, which are skewed to portray the desired result.

I use my own observations as to how the game is going and all I see is so called scratch and 1 handicap players shooting scores that are a disgrace, consistency from players in my day was far superior to anything I observe in today's game.

Perhaps the time has come to change the way that handicaps are introduced, perhaps even counting no score over a bogey as a first step. Why should I have to compete against a player who gets his handicap because he blows out on 3 or 4 holes yet still makes half a dozen pars and maybe a birdie. I see it all the time.

re: countback
user38216
Reply : Thu 13th Sep 2012 20:42

Every day I see very high handicaps making half a dozen pars during the course of a round yet sometimes failing to play to their handicap, but coming up against those same pars in matchplay would cause a problem for the low handicapper. - Agreed John, I fall into this category and havea far better matchplay record than medal!

re: countback
user52922
Reply : Thu 13th Sep 2012 22:46

The reason you fall into this category, David, is because your immense power gives you many opportunities to score well. I can only assume that your short game lets you down sometimes.

re: countback
user446732
Reply : Thu 13th Sep 2012 22:59

John "I use my own observations as to how the game is going and all I see is so called scratch and 1 handicap players shooting scores that are a disgrace, consistency from players in my day was far superior to anything I observe in today's game."

If we are using our own observations (a dodgy proposition as the sample sizes are statistically insignificant), I officiate at dozens of county and above level competitions every year and see nothing to support your contention. It is the 5-10 caps playing in open comps that cloud the issue as the only scores that show are gross. Handicaps are not normally published in the results. But do you make the same suggestion about the pros? Look at their score distribution in tour events.

All cat 1 players are monitored closely by the counties (+ caps particularly). If they don't justify their rating they will be adjusted.

re: countback
user52922
Reply : Fri 14th Sep 2012 09:32

DH, I knew you had a vested interest in this farce, I could tell by your superior attitude to this never ending problem. It is you who is responsible for the mess we are in.

You must go around with your eyes wide shut if you do not see that what you support is a farce.

5 - 10's cloud the issue you say, well in my day there were no scratch competitions for 5 -0 10's, four handicap were the highest one would ever see in a scratch field.

Now to the Pro's. I have already spoken of them many times on this forum. Whilst those at the top level can certainly play, the results for any pro tournament will show that over half the field cannot play to scratch. The pot of gold available has enabled many players top get into the sport at this level without having much real ability. Pro players of yesteryear had to be good to survive.

We have a couple of Scratch players and some off 1 at my club and quite honestly they are not even good enough to play for BB&O, which is not the strongest county around.

You carry on doing your sterling work for the County and its Union, but please try and show some innovation in solving this problem we have in attempting to get people across the line together.

re: countback
user202037 [FORUM MODERATOR]
Reply : Fri 14th Sep 2012 09:54

JP,

Can I ask you a question, and please be truthful with your answer.

Do you score the same every time you play, be that in stableford or medal?

re: countback
user451055
Reply : Fri 14th Sep 2012 10:20

To me it seems that the big difference between low and high handicappers is not their ability on an individual hole but their consistency over 18 holes.

Yes it may seem to a low handicapper that it is easier for a high handicapper to come in 5 shots under par but a high handicapper will far more often come in over par whereas the low handicappers do generally play within their buffer zone. (from seeing what happens at my club)

This gives the low handicapper a much greater advantage in medal/strokeplay tournaments and the high handicappers in stableford/matchplay.

I'm not sure what you can do about stablefords but I do firmly believe that playing to 3/4 handicap in matchplay is much fairer than full handicap. Not only does it even up the advantage from the high handicapper but it also then encourages people to get better and reduce their handicap - there is a real benefit from being lower as the 3/4 doesn't hit you as hard. It even helps you get better as it forces you to play to a lower handicap!

re: countback
user446732
Reply : Fri 14th Sep 2012 11:01

Judy

Perhaps you haven't see this

http://www.congu.com/Myth%207.pdf

re: countback
user446732
Reply : Fri 14th Sep 2012 11:03

Other readers may be interested in this:

http://www.congu.com/Myth%201.pdf

re: countback
user52922
Reply : Fri 14th Sep 2012 19:02

Lyth, rather an unfair question to ask with my current state of health, but I will say that I have been a member at Caversham for almost three years now and I have not played to my handicap once. 16 handicap when I joined and currently 20.7 today.

If you had asked me that question in the early sixties then I would have said that I played better than my handicap most of the time and those days when I didn't I would only be a little over. I was a consistent player in those days. No decimal point movements to help then, I can assure you.


Last edit : Fri 14th Sep 2012 19:07
re: countback
user446732
Reply : Fri 14th Sep 2012 20:03

"I played better than my handicap most of the time "

Aah! a bandit over the horizon ;-) ;-)

re: countback
user52922
Reply : Fri 14th Sep 2012 21:49

No DH, just a consistent player off Scratch, learned how to play with blades and persimmons, ability to produce all the shots of the day, which one never sees in today's game. Low handicappers cannot be called bandits and you well know that.

re: countback
user446732
Reply : Fri 14th Sep 2012 23:20

But if someone, whatever their handicap, consistently plays under it, there must have been something wrong somewhere.

re: countback
user52922
Reply : Sat 15th Sep 2012 17:06

Like most players, DH, we tend to play more friendly games than competition rounds and as we all know it is a damn sight easier to play relaxed golf than competition golf.

Low handicappers have always been selective in which competitions to play in as retaining this class of handicap requires careful thought.

I might also add that stablefords were very rarely played, unlike today when it seems to have taken over the sport. I ask you, the games is about how many strokes, not how many points. We also played Bogey competitions, which my current club have never even heard of, says it all really.

re: countback
user16106
Reply : Sat 15th Sep 2012 17:38

John do you still play in proper comps or just social golf. Dave CAC handed Geordie.

re: countback
user52922
Reply : Sat 15th Sep 2012 22:12

Dave, I play in every competition at my club apart from the knockout matchplay ones. I play midweek competitions as well as week-end ones. Social games are not that social as they all wish to relieve me of my 5 every time.

Date Course Gross Sford Midweek Stableford Competition ( Qualifier ) (Wednesday 5th September 2012) Q Caversham Heath White Tees 97 33 Abbotts Hill Final Score (Sunday 2nd September 2012) Q Caversham Heath Blue Tees 70 + 5 holes 25 Abbotts Hill Final Score (Saturday 1st September 2012) Q Caversham Heath Blue Tees 94 + 1 hole 28 Mid Week Medal ( Qualifier ) (Friday 31st August 2012) Q Caversham Heath White Tees 110
Blue Tee Stableford Competition (Qualifier) (Sunday 26th August 2012) Q Caversham Heath Blue Tees 107 22 Week End Stableford Competition ( Qualifier) (Sunday 19th August 2012) Q Caversham Heath White Tees 99 30 Mid Week Medal (Wednesday 15th August 2012) Q Caversham Heath White Tees 105
Week End Stableford Qualifier From 9.00am (Saturday 4th August 2012) Q Caversham Heath White Tees 99 30 Midweek Stableford (Wednesday 1st August 2012) Q Caversham Heath White Tees 101 29 Midweek Stableford (Friday 30th March 2012) Q Caversham Heath White Tees 97 31 Midweek Stableford (Wednesday 14th March 2012) Q Caversham Heath Yellow Tees 95 33 Midweek Stableford (Friday 2nd March 2012) Q Caversham Heath Yellow Tees 95 33 Midweek Stableford (Wednesday 15th February 2012) Q Caversham Heath Yellow Tees 94 34 Midweek Stableford (Wednesday 18th January 2012) Q Caversham Heath Yellow Tees 90 38 Midweek Stableford (Friday 9th December 2011) Q Caversham Heath Yellow Tees 96 32 Midweek Stableford (Wednesday 23rd November 2011) Q Caversham Heath Yellow Tees 101 27 Midweek Stableford (Friday 18th November 2011) Q Caversham Heath Yellow Tees 77 + 4 holes 23 Mid Week Medal (Wednesday 5th October 2011) Q Caversham Heath White Tees 104
Mid Week Medal (Wednesday 7th September 2011) Q Caversham Heath White Tees 99
Mid Week Stableford (Friday 19th August 2011) Q Caversham Heath White Tees 107 20 Mid Week Medal Qualifier (Wednesday 3rd August 2011) Q Caversham Heath White Tees 98
Mid Week Friday Stableford ( Qualifier) (Friday 13th May 2011) Q Caversham Heath White Tees 99 26 Mid Week Friday Stableford ( Qualifier) (Friday 8th April 2011) Q Caversham Heath White Tees 97 28 Mid Week Stableford (Wednesday 16th March 2011) Q Caversham Heath Yellow Tees 98 27 Mid Week Stableford (Wednesday 2nd February 2011) Q Caversham Heath Yellow Tees 75 + 3 holes 27 Midweek Stableford (Wednesday 3rd November 2010) Q Caversham Heath White Tees 95 30

As you can see, not an impressive record, Dave, but I really struggle off the tee now without painkillers to suppress the back pain that I have. Virtually all comps are Qualifiers.

If this is unreadable then this is the link http://www.cavershamgolf.co.uk/roundmgmt.php

My standard of play is not important to me at 75 years of age, I am just pleased to get our there and try to do my best.

My course is 6875 yards off the white tees.


Last edit : Sat 15th Sep 2012 22:23
re: countback
user16106
Reply : Sun 16th Sep 2012 18:46

Im impressed John. Id love to be able to play as much competetive golf as you. Watch this space... Dave CAC handed Geordie.

re: countback
user487331
Reply : Mon 17th Sep 2012 10:39

JP, I played at your place for the first time the other week in the 7's for Heythrop Park. I really enjoyed it but maybe that was because I beat one of your 3 handicappers and shot +1 (easy course) Only kidding it was a great match and he was a lovely chap.

re: countback
user52922
Reply : Mon 17th Sep 2012 16:31

Rob, one over par is a great score, well done indeed. You must obviously hit the ball a fair distance as it is a long course, well for me it is.

The mere fact that you must have mastered the greens is very impressive because even us regular players can 3 putt quite often on some of them. In fact I 3 putted 15/16 and 17 today, disgraceful I know. You must have played Alex, he is the only 3 handicapper I know or it could have been Matt Willard, which if it was then you must be a very good player.

I noticed that on one of our notice boards it was showing the Harleyford Autumn cup, scratch event over 36 holes with a maximum handicap of 7.4, which surprised me. Low handicappers must be in short supply in BB&O.


Last edit : Mon 17th Sep 2012 16:32
re: countback
user487331
Reply : Mon 17th Sep 2012 19:40

JP, it was an American chap I can't remember his name, maybe he was off 2? I played Alex at our place but that wasn't as close as Alex wasn't quite on his game. I'm used to long courses and tricky greens because this is just like Heythrop but I played nicely all the same. Yes funnily enough I was just looking at the Autumn Cup today but can't play due to work commitments. I'm surprised it's 7.4 too and looking at the entries a lot of the usual suspects aren't even playing? It'll be 18 and below soon!

re: countback
user52922
Reply : Mon 17th Sep 2012 20:45

Ah, you played our American Mr Brewer (1 handicap) and a very long hitter. An impressive win on your part.

I noticed you thrashed Alex 6&5 at your place in March, I believe.

How I wish I was still good enough to play at that level again.

re: countback
user487331
Reply : Tue 18th Sep 2012 13:19

Yes he hit it miles past me John, scary long! I possibly had the edge because sometimes it didn't necessarily go in the direction he wanted :-)


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