John P i started a new thread as i didnt want to invade Richards topic any further.

In response to your post, firstly I never suggested a club can hit a shot for you and the correct swing/technique is the prerequisite to hitting a good shot. Nevetheless, given the same swing, a certain combination of club characteristics (shaft length, flex, lie angle, grip etc) will either improve of detract from the desired results.

In regards to golf demanding a variety of shots and that no custom fit can accomodate all the different types, I also cannot agree. Everyone has a swing that is aimed at producing straight down the middle shots with their maximum length (i.e. a neutral swing) if your clubs are fit for that type of shot then that gives you a base (a neutral base) for the other shot varieties.

Take it to the extreme. you go in to the shop and the have a variety of clubs with lengths of 100 inches down to10 inches long. by using the same neutral swing you would, eventually, come through trial and error come to a length of shaft that produced optimum results. Through custom fitting this could be established by showing distance hit with different lengths, shot shape, impact on the club face and impact made with the sole of the club on the ground. not going the custom fitting route would just be based purely trial and error which could be a long and expensive process.

in a situation where a player does not go down the custom fitting route and simply picks a club off the shelf, assuming that club is not suited to their size and swing they could end up making compensations in their, possibly, technically correct swing to allow them to make good shots. by making compensations in their swing to adjust for the ill-fitting club surely this would actually make it harder to make the other variety of shots required to be successful at this game.

Well, John, I will respond to you theories, none of which I agree with. I could possibly agree with you if I could see some evidence that the standfard of play has improved by all this marketing hype. Handicaps are generally higher than they were fifty years ago.

For the first 20 years of my golfing experience all clubs were only available from Pro shops and were bought in sets straight off the rack. No one ever knew or even asked if the shaft was even regular or stiff. The woods were made of persimmon and were shaped the way clubs had always been shaped, i.e. pear shaped. Not this modern great head that cannot miss the ball.

So, according to your theories I should never have been able to play the game, yet my first official handicap was 6, I was scratch the following year and forty years later, at the age of 62,  I was still a 6 handicap player. I have played in all the major amateur competitions like "The Brabazon", "The Lytham Trophy", "The South West of England" as well as many other recognisable 36 hole scratch events, of which I have won nine of. Entry would require balloting out at 1 handicap,

So, when you have reached this standard with your methods, then I will congratulate you most sincerely. but please accept that to do this will require more effort from you, than help from your custom fit.

Incidently, I have never played this game using yardages as my yardstick. I am not a mechanical player.

Just read your profile, and for someone who has yet to learn this game to be so forthright in being able to assess the merits of custom fit, is rather surprising.

JP i guess i wasnt entitled to my opinion then.  I thought someone of your age in life would have the maturity to be able to have a reasonable discussion with someone without getting personal, insulting and ignorant.....i guess I was wrong!

Yes, John, you were wrong. Your opinion was welcomed but did not have enough to back it up to be able to convince me.

Incidently, it does help to have a thick skin on forums.

I would like to add my 2 penny worth, i believe now days with the capabilities that modern technology has brought about, custom fitting is far from pointless, i was custom fitted for my current set of irons ( Wilson Di9's) and must say that since having them custom fitted my handicap has tumbled due to having the correct set up for my natural swing. I have a fairly fast swing and having these fitted ensured that these were a suitable match for my game.

I strongly believe that if you are going to pay alot of money for equipment and it can be adjusted to suit your style of play then it can only be money well spent.

On a further note, John P i understand you are a very experianced player who by your own admissions played to a very high standard, however why do you always appear to be so negative to the ever changing way that golf is being played?

i suppose i may as well give my 2 penn'orth also.

i know everyone has their own distinctive swing and it is best that you use clubs that suit each individuals own body mechanics and swing, but,

there is no technically correct swing, everybody develops a swing that they then use and further develop and sometimes change completely and start a fresh, there are swing paths that change depending on stance and other contributing factors.  Anyone should be able to groove a perfectly good swing to suit most clubs.  We all are able to change, and who is to say which swing plane is best or which club.  Some golfers have natural swings that draw the ball, is this their neutral swing or optimum swing?

As for getting custon fitted, i agree there are distinct advantages to getting the best club head and shaft combination if it actually enhances you game.  But again if you have to go and choose a driver that provides a draw from a neutral swing then does that improve your ability as a golfer or just reduce your score.  The same goes for using an Offset Driver to straighten out a slice or fade, again is that cheating or is that improving you as a golfer, question is, why is your swing making you slice, do you counter the slice and use the offset to straighten it, thereby making the adjustment in the club  and not in your stance and swing.  Does this make you a more advanced player or a robot?

Will a player who needs these aids to play the game be able to progress to play at a high level outside their club, or will their swing falter in later years because there swing has a problem now.

I support getting a club that works for you that allows you to decide whether you want a high-low-mid ball launch, and that would be best suited to being fitted properly, but it should be very time consuming changing all club heads and trying all combinations of different shafts and makes.  And using a weighted club that can correct a hook or slice, if it makes the golfer happy and more confident and he plays to a lower handicap then great, but it will not necessarily make him a better player.

I forgot to add, custom fitting should be a short cut to lowering your score, but it is down to the golfer to improve their knowledge, understanding and ability to play many different shots with each club.

john see thats your problem you assume too much.

You assume because I took exception to your post that I was not thick skinned, not correct. my skin is plenty thick dont worry about that. I took exception to your post because it attempted to dismiss my opinion as insignificant because of my ability in the game and its generally ignorance.

you assume that because i believe custom fitting is beneficial that i also believe that custom fitting is the only thing required to play good golf. incorrect as i stated in my previous post that good technique is vital and infinitely more important to play good golf

 you assume my "theories" (beliveing custom fitting can be beneficial) somehow dismisses how you learnt to play the game and your ability to play - it doesnt. I congratulate you on the level of golf you have achieved. My theory believes custom fitting could only have helped your game. that is to say that it couldnt have hindered your game unless incorrectly fitted.

You also assume because I believe in custom fitting that I believe in a totally mechanical game. again not correct I believe in a mix of both technoclogy, technique and feel.

You also assume because of my stats on here that my opinion is of less importance than yours, plenty of people in the world, especially in sport, have proven that you do not need to play at the highest level to be knowledgable in that area.

Finally you mention about players not being custom fitted years ago and simply buying off the rack - did they not get clubs lengthened or shortened to suit their size even back then?! this is a form of custom fitting. Would you hand a child an adult club? yes it has evolved into much more detail and a lot of it is erroneous due to the fact that players, especially beginners, have changing and flawed swings that custom fitting in certain areas is simply pointless. certain areas of custom fitting, I believe, will always be beneficial to players no matter what their level is i.e. grip size and shaft length.

Martin - On a further note, John P i understand you are a very experianced player who by your own admissions played to a very high standard, however why do you always appear to be so negative to the ever changing way that golf is being played?

Possibly the reason I may sound negattive is because of the negative way golf has changed. You call it progrees, I don't.

Your progress is nothing at all to do with your new Wilsons,  it is all down to your technique improving and if you really do believe that anything new custom fitted to you will get you down to Cat 1, then there is nothing I can say. Having played with you and seen that you have a pretty sound technique I fully expected you to improve. The fact tha tyou are putting all of this improvement down to your custom fit explains everything.

John Dunne, if you honestly believe that custom fit is the answer then fine. Just do not expect me to fall in line with this theory as I refuse to think it will make the slightest difference.

John (P)

Out of curiousty, what is your evidence to suggest golf handicaps are generally higher these days?

I should put my cards on the table too - I bought some new clubs last year, I had them fitted, I wasn't trying to buy a good game, but I feel more confident, I'm playing better and more importantly I'm enjoying my golf more - might be just progress who knows

I think somebody on the other thread had it right - its played between the ears. My philosophy is there is no right or wrong answer, its what ever suits you (and your pocket)

I've twice gone for a custom fitting session with the hope of coming away with shiny Mizuno's. On both occasions the spin rate of the Mizuno's was above the optimum and although launch angles were similar the ball ballooned up as the spin took over. In practice this meant I'd be hitting an extra iron to achieve the same distance against an iron from a different manufacturer.

However, distance isn't the be all and end all. Distance has to be tempered against dispersion, which can be helped with peripheral weighting and heel/toe bias. And then do you need a high, or mid, or low kick point shaft to improve the launch angle?

After all that, custom fitting is like an M.O.T., i.e. potentially only as good as the day its done. Tomorrow you might swing quicker or slower, and 6 months later your swing has evolved into...

If you haven't got a consistent swing, all you can do is buy something that (roughly) fits your usual shot. Anything else is just marketing hype.

I think if you change "is it pointless" to "can it/could it help" you may get a different answer.

I have seen putting improvements from players (including Pros) who have had their putters fitted to them (same putters, not new ones). improved ball striking and ball flight from correctly sized grips and increased consistancy from clubs which have had L&L adjustments carried out.

I've seen players improve distance and dispertion rates when trialing different shafts (also seen the opposite).

Everyone is entiltled to their opinion and each is as valid as the other. Each with its own merits.

Phil B, I don't normally respond to posters who cannot be bothered to fill in a profile so that we all know who exactly you are, but I will make this an exception.

With handicaps being moved from 24 to 28 we has seen a very large increase in players who think that becasue they scrape into a handicap situation that they are there, but in my day handicaps wre limited at 24 which meant that at 3/4 handicap no one recieved more than 1 shot a hole.

An official handicap could only come from a golf club and this meant that it was extremely difficult to get into a private club until one was at least of the standard of an 18 handicap. Today, of course the game has opened up for anyone to play, providing they have the money and there are many courses now which cater for this type of player.

Because of these new courses and with handicaps being sought by all standards of play we have a situation whereby handicaps are being given from other sources, like Golfshake itself. The cards are posted by the players and who knows what rules were adopted for these rounds. We also see players playing off a decent handicap, but when seeing where they are playing we have many players who are getting their good scores at very very short courses, which might boost their ego but will catch up with thyem later on.

I will agree with you that new clubs may instill some confidence, Phil, but improvement will only come by your own efforts and not the marketing of a club manufacturer.

My mate Ken (another CAC hander ) is getting a new "budget" set of wilsons fitted from American golf. I believe it is inc in the cost of a new set of irons. He has been floating around 16-19 handicap for a couple of years so we will give it 6 months and see what happens. My opinion is, if there are certain variables that can be altered and judged by an expert to be advantageous to your general play then I would say you cant go wrong. I havn't as yet got a scrap of proof but thats my opinion.

Dave CAC handed Geordie.

Hi Dave, how you keeping, long time since we saw each other.

Personally I don't need a custom fit to enable me to play whatever trajectory I feel is necessary for the shot in hand, as I know how to vary the trajectory on any given shot. I also know how to shape a ball for any kind of shot.

A custom club cannot shape the ball, only the player can. So having a custom fit to hit a stock standard straight shot might be all well and good but it is of no use when actually playing the game the way I do. Golf is a game of feel, flair and imagination and one cannot get this from a custom fit, even assuming that the custom fit is a custom fit, if you know what I mean.

john I have never ever said that custom fitting is the answer or that it will make you a great player. All i said was that custom fitting can only be a positive thing (if done correctly). you say custom fitting is of no use when trying to shape a shot or change trajectory - if a club fitter got a hold of your clubs and chopped 7 inches off the shafts do you think it would make it harder or easier to play with (whatever shot that may be)?

Hi JP im doing fine as I hope you are. I may see you in one of the Golfshake opens this year when the dates are issued. I  am , as im sure a lot of shakers are envious of your skill in being able to shape the ball. I at the moment alas would be happy to hit 100% as you put it "stock" shots. If getting fitted clubs enables one to hit a larger % of stock shots that can only be a good thing. Shaping the ball would then be a continuation of this process.

Hope to see you and alot of other shakers in the coming year.

Dave CAC handed Geordie.

John D, you really are coming up with some outrageous points. Why would anyone chop 7" off a shaft.

To keep it simple so that you might understand where I come from, I have never altered any clubs that I have owned. I have only re-gripped about twice in my lifetime. A club, is a club, is a club but I will admit that I have only ever played with top quality equipment, mostly Japanese Marumans for my irons and Honma for my woods.

I still say that custom fit will not improve your stock shots by any appreciable amount. Only solid practice of a sound method will do it for you. Then again, it is not easy finding anyone who can pass on the right knowledge in a way that you yourself can understand. It is also very expensive.

I spend all my time helping others with their game, because I feel that to reach ones potential one must make the effort to ensure that the basic fundamentals of this game become ingrained, so that automatic improvement and consistency can be maintained.

Those who know me on this forum would substantiate what I have just said. I am a very friendly person, with nearly sixty years of experience in this game and noted for getting into arguments quite easily, even though I have no wish to.

Dave P, when you get any free days you are welcome to come up to Berkshire and play at either, or both of my clubs. I may even be able to help you.

I love the forum 'arguments'! I agree with John P in the fact that someone like Luke Donald would still shoot 'par' or below using my clubs - however at the very highest level I'm sure custom fitted clubs would make a difference. I'm new to the game and I appreciate that confidence has a lot to do with the outcome of a round. If you think a custom fitting will help your game, go for it. If like me you feel within reason the clubs are almost irrelevant and that working on your swing is more important than the clubs you use, go for it. It would be dull if we were all the same!

I'll put my views in on this one. I think both sides are correct but failing to appreciate each others point. 

No matter how good a custom fitting is, it will not turn a poor golfer into a good one.  It will not improve their shot making ability, their striking or turn a poor swing into a good one.  I agree that a good golfer will be able to use any clubs, but if those clubs are wrong for them it will compromise their game.  I remember reading of one of the top pros from the days of persimmon clubs (who it was escapes me).  He was recognised as a fantastic striker of the ball, one of the best with irons, and after he retired from the tour he agreed to have his clubs measured.  They found that the shafts in all of his irons were virtually identical except one (3 iron I think), which was significantly different.  When he was told he smiled a wry smile and said "I never could hit that club properly". 

What a custom fitting will do is give a golfer the tools to make the most of the game he or she has.  It will give them the clubs that allow them to make the most of the ability they have and shoot the best scores they can for their current ability.  I am a beliver in custom fitting personally and every club in my bag has been custom fit.  I will continue use custom fitting as I belive everyone is different and for me to make the most of my ability my clubs should suit me as an individual.  For me, that means all my clubs have a standard length stiff shaft, my irons and wedges are 2* flat and my putter 35" long and 1* flat.

Just a final one with my moderator hat on.  Quick reminder of the AUP.  This thread has come close to the bone a couple of times.  Please remember that everyone is entitled to an opinion and just because it is different to yours doesn't mean it is not valid.  Please also ensure that you do not descend into getting personal

JP may take you up on that. Where are you playing at the moment. Thought you were around hampshire somewhere or are you near the border?

Dave CAC handed Geordie.

john I dont know why you keep repeating something i agree with. namely the only way to serious improvement is through practice, technique and understanding. I agree with this 100% and that no club in the world no matter how much custom fitted can help with any degree of significance without this.

I suggested the outrageous figure of 7 inches purposely because if you agree that 7 inches makes it harder then you would agree 6 inches would still make it more difficult but better than the 7 inch shorter club. if you continue you this line of thought of trial and error there has to be length of shaft that best suits a particular person/swing - which would mean you in some capacity you agree that some aspects of custom fitting can help. but you already knew this which is why you didnt answer the question.

You say you've never been custom fitted for clubs thats fair enough.  I would assume then you are of average height because if you werent and were either very big or small I would assume someone at some stage would have suggested either lengthening or shortening your clubs. can the same club be as efficient for someone who is 6 ft 3 compared to someone who is 5ft 3?

perhaps custom fitting wouldn't have been of any benefit to yourself but perhaps to someone else it could make quite a big difference and considering custom fitting can not really do any harm (only positive in my opinion) I see no reason to discourage it. I'll give my own story as an example- I was given my golf clubs by my uncle. the clubs themselves where very old (from the 80's i think) so i decieded to spoil myself last year to a new set of irons. When I went for the fitting the guy in the shop measured and inspected my clubs and told me that the clubs had probably been shortened at some point (something I wasnt aware of). he let me hit several swings with my old clubs taking measurements all the time - where the ball was making contact with the ball, how the club was striking the ground, ball flight, distance etc then I began using new clubs with different setups. by the end of the session I was catching the club more out of the centre of the face and the club was making more square impact with the ground. I hadnt changed my swing and my measurements in regards to swing path and angle of attack etc and the ball flights/distances at the beginning of the session where well within acceptable levels to suggest I was making good swings and the changes to the clubs setups were simply not correcting a bad swing. in the end, after taken several clubs to the range/course and a second fitting i ended up taking home the most neutral clubs I could have - i.e. average length, shaft, grip etc and could of bought straight of the shelf but i wasnt playing with neutral clubs beforehand and i didnt know that. It just as easily could have went the other way i.e. off the shelf may have been non optimal.

finally I can see that you must have a wealth of experience in regards to this great game that could be very useful to a lot of people but i think you must realise that the way you play and learnt are not the only way. Many pro players on tour are very feel based players but others are very technical. Hourses for courses in my book and I dont think it's right to criticise others for their approach to the game, especially when other methods have worked at the highest level also. Personally i think you could give your opinion/advice in a more encouraging way because i believe it could be invaluable to some if not all on here.

on another note you or others may be wondering how much impact the custom fitting made to my game. hard to know - my handicap has dropped since getting them but i think it's more down to an improved short game (which was awful i might add). I've also been reading quite a few books recently on golf technique. i've never been more confident with my irons though and i think im hitting them better (definitely longer) on average. the increased length is probably due to stronger angles these days though. I've a long way to go before I can call myself even a decent player but im heading in the right direction. if I can hit more fairways with my driver  I believe I can play in the low teens by the end of this year. unfortunately practice time for a dad of 2 (eledest 4 and youngest 6 months) can be difficult to find.

Dave P, I am a member at Caversham Heath Golf Club and Badgemore Park Golf club. Two entirely different courses. Caversham just requires infinite power (Which I do not possess) and the other requires shotmaking abilities, which is just up my street.

John D, I have said nothing in my posts that I would not say to your face. I accept that my views are totally different to yours and you are welcome tpo them.

As to the moderation Chris, I do not like to be threatened. If you feel I have overstepped the mark then you should have done your job. If I have not done so then I would like your comments retracted.

I had a borrowed set for a few weeks in the summer. They were 2.75 degrees upright and 1/2" longer than standard, which for someone who's only 5'8" tall is quite a bit out.

My scores to par gross were 11, 3, 8, 0, 3, -2.

4 out of 6 rounds under h'cap with clubs that were nowhere near my spec... go figure that one out, coz I can't.

John "I have said nothing in my posts that I would not say to your face" i dont doubt it. same goes for me too.

JP. I've moved to Andover now and if you wouldnt mind I would love to catch up with you for a chin wag and another round at some point, show you how I'm now less of "an idiot". Hopefully you will see my game has improved!!!

Brian - 4 out of 6 rounds under h'cap with clubs that were nowhere near my spec... go figure that one out, coz I can't.

Simple really, you are a very good player and as I have beeen saying a good player can play with anything.

Matt, So you finally made a move, I thought you were going to move to Chineham. Perhaps I got it all wrong as usual.

I have moved from Sherfield Oaks because of the no biuggies in the winter and have joined Caversham Heath and Badgemore Park.

Look them up for position and facilities. BGoth excellent courses and fine tests.

If you feel you can travel the distance then you will always be welcome, you know that. Just let me know and I will arrange it.

John P,

My moderation comments were a general point and not aimed at any one person.  My statement was "This thread has come close to the bone a couple of times".  At the time of the posting I felt that no rules had been broken and hence had not removed any comments.  I did feel, however, that things could easily descend and decided that it a quick reminder was best as this would prevent it from happening before it did. 

Moderation is not a "job", it's a favour for the site owners (Darren) to help him make sure that the forum is used in acceptable way.  This includes removing abusive posts and those linking to a dodgy website selling TaylorMade R11S drivers at a price that makes you question their authenticity like I did this morning.  Given that to be the case, as you don't appreciate being "threatened" (I did not feel you were but it did come close, one of the reasons for the reminders of the AUP), I do not appreciate being told to "do my job", especially when it is not a job and your comment at me is no different to the one aimed at you elsewhere.

I have no comments to retract.  If you felt the comments were aimed at you then you must believe you have done something wrong.

Keep up the good work Chris, I do find that these forums can become unnecessarily hostile at times and some moderation is required from time to time.

Brian, "I had a borrowed set for a few weeks in the summer. They were 2.75 degrees upright and 1/2" longer than standard, which for someone who's only 5'8" tall is quite a bit out."

I bet you you had a lovely effortless draw...http://www.golfshake.com/scripts/ckeditor362/plugins/smiley/images/regula
r_smile.gif" title="smiley" width="20" />

i believe that custom fitting your clubs is a good idea but it can only fit your swing at the time of fitting, so you have to be realistic about the process, is it a worthwhile procedure if you do not have a good posture and solid repeatable swing that you can easily maintain for the forseeable future?  If you have a bad swing then there is a good chance your swing will fail you and no matter what custom clubs you use they will not help you. 

All you golfers who have been custon fitted, Do you go back at the end of the season for another custom fitting session to see if they are still set right for you?

So i am of the opinion that if you want to get custom fitted you need to have a good swing that you are keeping and you should be able to play under 12 over par on a reasobly length course of 6,000 yards.  This would confirm your golfing ability.  You should also know which clubs you use most frequently and your level of consistency with each club.  I would say you also need to play regular to benefit from such clubs so you have opportunity to improve.

Soon after i started playing golf a friend helped me upgrade to a set of clubs that suited me as a beginner and i still play with them now because they are well made clubs and my swing has been built around these clubs, steel shafted Browning Mirage 2-SW, looking back custom fitting at that time would not have helped me. 

Now i am considering upgrading to a newer set possibly at the end of this year if i can afford it, and i hope to get custom fitted if possible.  But, before i get custom fitted i will play with the same clubs straight off the shelf and see if there are any problems.  How many different choices of clubs are there now available to me off the shelf, i will be looking at a low/medium ball trajectory but will this suit my game i do not know.  Which ever clubs i choose will have to last at least 10 years of play before showing signs of wear requiring replacement so they will have to be made from harder quality steel, and do i go with steel or graphite shafts? 

So for this kind of investment they are going to need to be right, so custom fitting has to be an option.

I would say "custom built" over "custom fit" .You would be shocked how bad some clubs are built and in my experience no off the shelf brand is excluded from this. Iron set: Wrong lofts,lies,lenght and weight. Wedges are not excluded either rarely are they the loft advertised and don't get me started on drivers!

Clubs of yesteryear had far better build quality and this I have plenty of factual evidence that I have checked myself.

I've never had custom fitted clubs (though if you enquire about new clubs it seems to come as standard). I just go for the shape of the head and how the club sits on the ground. I can see that it could improve confidence, which is no bad thing but can't see how it can improve a swing.

My mate rung American golf to book a fitting session for a set of new wilsons at about £200 and was told that " you cannot be fitted for wilsons". Is this true? or is it just they do not want to fit you with wilsons? Is harrington fitted or has he got off the shelf?

Dave CAC handed Geordie.

You can get fitted for Wilsons, i did last week.

Also here is a video that shows that custom fit can make a massive difference - no matter how good your swing - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdv1fXnZRAg&feature=relmfu

Joe, the video shows nothing other than the fact that he was demonstrating the difference between the extremes. 2 deg flat and 2 deg upright, which is a vast gap in the spectrum.

I might also add that a 35 yard off straight hit for a professional is pretty poor, even with an unsuitable club.

Hi John,

Yes his example is extreme, but the point it makes is still valid. Having clubs that don't fit you makes playing golf more difficult. If his example had been a difference in shaft length of half an inch, then the affect would have been considerbly less, but it would have still been there. He also very purposfully does not change his swing.

As a pro (or a good player) he could have altered his swing to account for the different clubs, but then he is moving away from his optimal swing and will pay for that in either distance or accuracy.

You have mentioned previously that you think a custom fitting makes no difference, yet here you are saying that extremes should be discounted, those two views seem to be at direct odds with each other.

Lets go back to the example of a club that is 7" too short, yes its extreme, but its also completely valid. What about a club that is 5" too short? That would sureley be easier to hit? and so you keep going until you reach an optimal length for your swing? and thay may well be standard, but it also may not.

If someone buys custom fit clubs that are 1" shorter than standard, and their handicap falls, it has fallen as you rightly said because their technique has improved, but that in part is due to no longer having to make adjustments in their swing to clubs that do not fit their body / swing.

 No matter what club you put in my hand I will most certainly hit it straight, because I would setup so that the club is where it should be.

I took my next doors neighbours little girl down the driving range, borrowed a specialised nine iron for this age group, which was pretty short, I can tell you, and, bel;ieve it or not I could hit this club, stooped over, perfectly straight and with the benefit of the very flexible shaft, five yards further than my own nine iron, so what you are suggesting is that perhaps I should have all my clubs cut down to this length and with the obvious very flexible shaft.

I am sorry, Joe, but I have been in this game a long, long time and there is nothing the manufacturers can do that will get your handicap down.

So a different length and flexibility has added 5 yards to your 9 iron?

It may be a little extreme to suggest that you did this for your entire bag, but given your own example you cannot deny that altering the dimensions / dynamics of the club can and do make a difference.

That surely is the point of a custom fit, whether its gives you 1 yard extra, 20 yards, or even helps you to hit the ball just a tiny bit straighter, it still does make a difference - and flatly denying it as you seem to be doing is merely burying your head in the sand.

Wasting my time discussing this with you Joe, at least I have been a good player using my methods and standard clubs. Expect to see your handicap tumbling with custom fit.

Degree of Error

Who can honestly state on here that their stance, posture, grip and ball positions and swing are perfectly correct everytime they address and then hit the ball?

Who says that changing any or all of the above would improve their game? 

Take any club golfers posture at address and his entire swing through to his final position at follow through.  

If a golfer does not have a regiular repeatable and consistent swing that is also the most suitable swing for themselves, then, how is this golfer going to find his optimum swing etc if he gets fitted for clubs with an unsuitable swing etc.. 

So, if we understand and accept that as club golfers the majority of us are not playing with the best possible technique etc, and could improve any or all of those vital aspects of our posture/swing etc to improve our game, then, having clubs 'custom built or fitted' to our present game means your game/swing etc has to continue to adapt to these clubs and the clubs serve little purpose other than being possibly more suitable for the already inadequate swing.  So, questiion i ask is this, Is it appropriate to custom build or fit a golfer with an unsuitable swing, posture etc. 

'Custom built or custom fitted' are best for the golfer who has their optimum swing etc. 

When a golfer is that good and his swing etc has contains only a very small Degree or Error from the optimum swing etc on occasion , i would expect these golfers to be able to use nearly any club.

So, i jave to conclude that Custom Built or Custom Fitting do have benefits, but, they can also be too the detriment of the golfer without them even knowing.  To what degree of benefit to any golfer this has to their present and future game is open to debate, but i would favour the benefits will be greater for the highest standard of golfer compared to a mid to high handicapper.

my opinions are based on standard length clubs that had been selected with appropriate shaft flex.

Now that is a viewpoint that I can agree with, custom fit is not a magic bullet.

However, I do think that it can help - a player using clubs that are too long is going to hit the ground with the heel and fire the ball to the left, thats just basic physics - a shorter club is going to help stop that, and will also allow them to stop manipulating the swing to prevent the ball going left. 

Its not going to stop them topping or thinning it, thats down to the swing, not the club.

If you remove the forced manipulation from an ill fiting club, then every player has a better chance of making a good swing with proper contact.

Manufacturers only make a "standard" length by default as to build all of the various sizes of each club of club would be a manufacturing and distribution headache for them. Imagine if Clarks did the same thing with shoes. One size, and if they dont fit tough, wear socks or cut your toes off.

To say that all people fit a "standard" club is simply not true.

Similarly a correctly fitting golf club will make not sudenly make you a good golfer.

Joe, i have a sense i know where you are coming from, but, well, you are missing the point JP has made, if a golfer found his swing did not suit his club, then he would change his swing to suit the club and  or shot type required.  Golf is not about having 1 swing and every club fitting that same robotic or mechanical swing. 

As for your reference to playing with a club that is too long, shortening it is an option but then, you have other options, find your optimum posture, stance and ball position for using this club and if they are correct, review the Lie of the club.  There is always the option to place the hands further down the grip.

Take into account whether the golfer is vertically challenged or not!

Check to see if the club has a standard length shaft.

If  a club has a standard length shaft then unless the golfer is a short arse with long arms or a lurch with short arms then the standard length shaft would fit the vast majority of able bodied golfers.  Those who need a shaft longer or shorter than standard should have a good reason if altering the lie of the club  is not appropriate.   I can't comment on the requirement of the golfers with the extra ballast hanging over their trouser belts as i don't know if they need longer or shorter club shafts or whether the Lie of their clubs need changing.

Changing shaft length or the Lie of a club is a form of customising it, but when a physical attribute of a golfer dictates this is required i would class this as a common sense approach and outside the norm of fine tuning a club.

Using a different make of club or Driver will provide you with a different outcome to that of your own clubs and Driver, that does not mean you should change because other clubs may hit longer or straighter or higher.  You play with what you have got and what you know.  Otherwise you will have numerous sets of clubs for different weather and ground conditions so as to maximise every shot on every round.

What i have found to make the difference in my game is improving my chipping.  This in turn has improved my posture, and also the ball striking of all my clubs so  i can now hit more confidently into the green from over 160 yds.  I did not need to get custom fitted for a new set of clubs to improve, i just had to learn how to use what i had more efffectively.

I use an old set of irons with steel shafts, the heads are heavy but i like them.  I have played with some modern lighter graphite shafted irons and i find these to have a very different feel yet i hit these very similar to mine, distance and accurately wise, yet i have a very different swing to the owner of these graphites. 

So, if i chose to buy these irons off my mate would i be advised to have them custom fitted to maximise their potential or would it be a waste of time?

I do hear what John is saying, its just that frankly I completely disagree with him.

Lets have a quick look at some other sports:

Cricket: bats are made to differing weights and lenghts, as are the pads batsmen wear.
Cycling: Frames are made to different sizes (and if you are a bit more serious, you can get the entire geometry of the bike altered to fit your body)
Snooker: custom length, width and weight cues
Darts: Weights, shape, length, shape of flight
Hockey: custom length
Archery: custom draw weights and lengths
Shooting: Custom stock to fit your body.

And then there is Golf.

How is golf so radically different from the above that it should require the human to fit around the equipment as opposed to the other way around? Some of the above are purely geometric fittings, others are a more personal "feel" but it makes them no less valid.

For all of the above, you can take something "off the rack" and you may get on ok, but choose something that fits you and you have a better chance (correct size bike frame, weight of snooker cue that feels best to you etc etc).

Its not going to increase your skill level (practice and training to that) but it allows you to optomise the skill that you already have.

How that could the "pointless" is beyond me.

So, Joe , it seems to me that you really are impressed with custom fitting. Perhaps you would be so kind as tp list all the things that would go into a proper custom fit, because I can assure you that what is advertised as a custom fit, is just a compromise in  itself and is of little use to anyone.

My friend Iavn (Kn own as Sanders Longdrive) fitted one of my drivers with the fine 3 shaft which won the worlds long driving championships this year, which he fitted incidently and whilst I was at his house for the couple of days I spent with him he actually fine tuned my swing speed(Which is pretty slow) to one of these shafts in the bottom end of the regular range. Yes, range. he had 11 different shafts covering the regular range and the same number covering the Stiff range.

Now custom fit will only give you a regular or stiff shaft, so this is, as I said, a compromise, not a custom fit.

There is a distinct difference between being impressed and believing that it can make a difference.

If money was no object, my custom fit would be a completely custom set of clubs, from head design, lie, length, grip size, shaft flex and kickpoint, and which ball best suited me and my clubs.

However that is beyond the purse strings of most of us, so we have to take the bits that are available to us for the money we can spend. I cannot (as you have) justify a custom shaft in my driver, but I can happily spend the £15 to ensure that any new clubs I buy have the right length, lie and grip size.

Here is an example of a quite in depth fitting, http://www.golfmagic.com/forum/golf-equipment/true-temper-shaft-la
b-analysis/10360.html where the mechanics are matched with the feeling of what is being suggested.

With Ivan, he is giving you a far more tailored shaft than one of the stock options, the fact that he has 11 shafts that cover the regular range just goes to show how broad the stock options are, which is why you got fitted?

If as you say a stock regular or stiff shaft is a compromise, how can having the incorrect length, lie, grip size not also be a compromise as well?

I feel that you are being a little bit silly by exaggerating thingsg like length, because if I felt the club was too long for me then I would go down the shaft till I felt comfortable. In sixty years of playing I have never come across a club that was either too short (Apart from a ladies set I own) or too long. Probably because I am average size.

My custom fit was not a custom fit, just a friend attempting to give me more length by putting in a new, innovative and expensive shaft. Unfortunately I cannot hit it any further than whatever I use.

A pity you never played when everything came off the rack and custom fit had never been invented. I wonder if you would have complained as strongly as you are now doing.

All equipment for all sports is personal choice and for the elite within the parameters of those who are doing the sponsoring.

Like I have always said, a good player can play with anything, the rest of us muddle along blaming the equipment instead of ourselves.

Mind you I don't swing a club the same way enough times to be worthy of a custom fit. I am not a mechanical player.

to JOE D  ,,, i had a custom fit the other day , works out i need to have the clubs 1* toe up , and a lighter shift , because of my slow sing speed ,,so i hope the new club r great ,, there b here in aweek or 2 , so r let u all know how i get on ,, 

JP did you notice any difference in the positive after sanders had a go or was there no difference?

Peter B is this a new set you have ordered as fitted ? What did you use before, What are you buying? Or r they the same clubs but getting fitted ?

Dave CAC handed Geordie.

Ivan asked me if there was any improvement and I had to say that there was nothing in the distance stakes, but the flight of the ball was a lot higher than I was getting with the other drivers I own. I don't know what the answer is, I strike it nice but just does not seem to go anywhere. I would say 190 yards is about my current length off the tee, which makes my course unplayable in regulation figures. Come on up and test yourself on a very long course.

Not much further john. A good hit on the flat goes about 220yds. Always strive to get further.

Dave CAC handed Geordie.

All the guys I play with seem to hit about 260 - 280. We must be doing something wrong, Dave.

220 down the middle better that 280 in the woods.

Dave CAC handed Geordie.

Dont let John talk  you into playing the 7200 yds blues at his course Dave.

I dont  normally struggle for length, but it is looooong !

You coped with it well enough, Tim. I thought you played rather nicely that day. A nice solid and sound swing.

JP, from one of your posts: -

"he had 11 different shafts covering the regular range and the same number covering the Stiff range.

Now custom fit will only give you a regular or stiff shaft, so this is, as I said, a compromise, not a custom fit."

Sorry to disagree, but all the custom fits I have had have included trying a range of shafts from the "stiff range" (make, model, kick points, etc) and finding the correct one for me.  I can honestly say the difference in both my irons and driver between shafts that were classed as the same (stiff) could be significantly different and I could easily see the difference in length, launch angle and dispersion

A PROPER custom fit will not just measure your club head speed, look at a chart and match a shaft type to it, it will use this as a start point to narrow down the options when trying to find the right set up.

I prefer to manage my own launch angle, Chris. Dispersion is something that can be improved by using a stiffer shaft but at the cost of length, so I prefer to try and be more accurate with my striking so that I don't spend all day in the trees.

I very much doubt that you have the optimum setup for you, you might say you have and who am I to argue with you. Lets see the handicap tumble this year with everything now in your favour.

Actually John I have seen my handicap fall and I am scoring some of my best cards.  I should have had my first sub-80 two weeks ago and choked on the 17th and took an 8 with only 59 on my card to that point. 

I too can manage my launch angle and do so.  However, knowing that the club at neutral will give you the neutral ball flight means you don't have to adjust your swing for the club

I wouldn't call it a choke, Chris, these things will happen before you make the breakthrough.

Chris you had 59 on the 17th tee and got an 8. So You had 67 on the 18th tee and still failed to break 80. What happened ? or was that 69 on the 17th tee?

Dave CAC handed Geordie

Well spotted on the typo Dave.  Fat fingers.  It was 69 on the card with a par 4 in front of me and a par 5 to finish. 

I thought I needed a par and a bogey out of the last two holes to break 80 (turns out I only needed two bogeys) and tried to go for the green from a difficult position chasing par instead of laying up to guarantee bogey and take my chances with par on the par 5.  I found a hazard, then a waterlogged greenside bunker. After playing the hole in front of me all the way round, I started thinking about the final score with two holes to play and changed how I played. 

I am certain John that I choked.  One of my playing partners told everyone how impressed he was with how I took it as I just shrugged my shoulders, walked to the next hole and played a regulation hole.  I thank Dr Bob for that.  I learned a lot from that little blow up and I am certain that in the same position I will not be doing the same thing again.

10 pars and a birdie chris, Brilliant.

Dave CAC handed Geordie.

to dave patrick ,,,, i had wilson di11 b4 fitted by greg nicholson ,(see the other thread about that) good clubs but just not right 4 me , so had a fitting by scott dales golf , (in manchester) and it work out i have a slow sing speed , so need a light shaft , so in the end i ordered,   cobra s3 irons with light shafts ,abit dear but lets hope they r the ones 4 me ,,  there b here in aweek or 2 ,,

I can see both sides to this arguement. Custom fitting will in no way improve your skills as a golfer. Fact. However, if done correctly, it can definitely improve your levels of success. Bear this one fact in mind, for a wedge from one hundred yards, for every degree the lie angle is out, the ball will travel 7 yards off the target line, for example a wedge that is 2 degrees upright will send the ball 14 yards left of the target from 100 yards. This is due to something called face plane tilt. However, having said this, a good golfer often has the ability to make any golf club in his/her hands 'work'. Also, just because a golfer is constantly digging the toe of the golf club into the ground does not warrant him/her having upright clubs. If the said golfer already has a general right to left ball flight the last thing they need are upright clubs. All of this only concerns lie angle, shaft length, weight, swingweight and flex all play a huge part in custom fitting. Any golfer that takes golf seriously should get custom fit, believe me it's worth it. As a pro i do a lot of custom fitting for golfers and sometimes the results are staggering, get fit!

The only thing that's new about custom fitting these days compared with 20, 30 or 40 years ago is the number of infinitesimal variations you can have, most of which have been mentioned in the posts above. The only proof of whether they work is to take them out onto a flat practice area with forty or more identical balls (20 #1 and 20 #2) and hit them alternately with two clubs identical except for a significant difference in one of those variations, then measure the distance and spread, ignoring any mis-hits.

I think I can guarantee you won't see any difference at all!

However, it's wrong to think there was no custom-fitting back in the old days. You took three or four different makes of 6-iron or driver, heavily taped of course as the pro's didn't have trial clubs, and hit a few dozen balls with them all. When you had decided which one looked and felt right, sat well behind the ball, and allowed you to hit the ball well without requring a swing-change, you bought a set and blamed yourself when your form dipped, because you had custom-fit them yourself!

Still the way I buy my irons, every ten years or so. With drivers, I take four out for a solo round on a very quiet evening and give them a score on every hole, weighting accuracy slightly higher than distance. By the 10th I've stopped using two and there's usually a clear winner - quite often my old driver! Hence I don't believe any of the marketing hype about clubs, so I'm with JP there - if it feels right it is right, now learn to use it properly.

Two stories:

A few years ago I played away (I think at the Berkshire) and asked the pro how the new breed of clubs had changed the game for the average player. He said, "well, the 18th was typically a drive and a 6-iron when I started here. These days the average member probably takes a driver and, um, a 6-iron".

More recently I played in a SE Regional seniors event with a guy who hit the ball a country mile, with a driver that had a lurid yellow shaft and a head that looked suspiciously like one of my old TaylorMade metalwoods. His rationale - all this hype about huge heads is nonsense, a more solid head will compress the ball at least as effectively as a thinner-faced 460 c.c. head, but there have been advances in shafts so he gets new shafts every few years. Logical, when you think how erratic graphite shafts were for years, they are bound to be still improving!

So, by all means get custom-fitted at a facility where you can try multiple brands. Do not limit yourself to one manufacturer. When you've found about three that feel okay and perform well on their telemetry take them out and do what I've described above, including your present equivalent club as a benchmark.

If they won't let you take them away then get your old ones polished and re-gripped, and practise your short game!

I played for years with standard set of golf clubs with regular shafts, then decided to get a new set and had them custom fitted, the club set up changed with the fitting, S300 shafts ½ inch longer shafts and 1.5 degrees upright, ( I am 6’2 by the way) played with that set up for about 6 to7 years, then I wanted to change the set but to buy new they are just stupid money, so I bought a set from Golfbidder, but it is difficult to buy with the set up I was playing with, so after having hit a friend’s standard set up on the range, I bought a set of Callaway X20 tour with standard set up but with project X 6.0 shafts, when hitting my friend’s set I felt the trajectory was a bit high, I like a slightly lower ball flight. I have to say the new set of irons with standard set up made no difference to my game what so ever,

I now two sets of irons Titliest MB’s also bought from golfbidder 1 degree upright s300 shafts and a set of Callaway X forged standard lie with project X 6.0 shaft. I can change from one set to the other with no problem and can shoot the same scores with either set. Like JP said if you can play the game you can play with any golf clubs.

I can hit my eight iron anywhere from 120 to 170 yards which means my swing speed will be different for those shots but I can still hit it straight, the length of the shafts are not that important because there is already a few inches difference from my wedge to three iron so I have to change my spine angle to accommodate that, so having an extra ½ inch on a shaft is not going to make any difference, and unless I can get my club at impact, back to my set up position then the lie angle will be different each time I swing.

In my opinion a set of custom fitted clubs will never make you a better player, it is marketing hype, trying to convince us that it will, so we will buy the more expensive clubs on the market, if it actually worked why did I still have crap days and poor ball striking rounds with my custom fitted set. I’ll tell you why because my swing and set up changed on those days, and the set up of my clubs made little difference, unless you can repeat your swing and impact position, custom fitting will do bugger all to help your game. Just my opinion mind.

I'm with John P on this

For same reason, I never bother to check the size of my golf glove. Though my hands are small, I find it doesn't really make that much difference if I play in extra large gloves - I just grip the club a lot harder. 

Admittedly, my handicap hasn't gone down in the last few years but I'm sure that's just due to lack of practice.

Custom fitting makes a big difference - I question whether anyone who says otherwise has ever actually been custom fitted?

You can stand and hit your driver in front of a trackman and see the dispersion & distance of 100 balls, then hit a different club with a different shaft (different flex, kickpoint, length etc) and see clearly and scientifically how this effects ball-flight for better or worse.

The fact the average handicaps have not moved is because we have many more people playing the game than we did 50 years ago - and more of those are casual players which puts the average handicap elevated. You must also take into consideration the average golf course is longer now than it was 50 years ago, this was done directly to counter increased distance gained through technology.

People make the mistake of assuming custom fit will turn them into a touring pro - and that isn't the case obviously. But what it will do is maximise distance and dispersion on good shots, and reduce the penalty on bad shots.

It will not make you hit good shots, and prevent you from hitting bad shots. To think that is crazy.




 

Whilst I generally no longer post on golf forums, I feel that John’s comments concerning his driver fitting by me requires replying to particularly as I am no longer the sole supplier of FineOneGolf T3 golf shafts in the U.K. and I feel that John’s remarks put a negative slant on both club fitting in general and on the T3 golf shaft.

First let me say that every golf player on every significant golf tour worldwide uses custom built clubs.  Unless one believes that such is either a good luck or religious process this is overwhelmingly evidential as to the importance of proper club fitting.  

As to why it is vital is a seperate matter,  and this post will be long enough to read without me going into detail on that.   There are other custom club builders who use this forum who may wish to add their input on such.

I have known John for a number of years as a friend and he has visited me and stayed over on several occasions. But at no time previously did I attempt to fit him with a custom driver.

I became increasingly aware of his struggle with the game via his remarks on this forum, and so decided to try to help him on a freebie basis as a good friend in need.

After briefly corresponding with John it was clear that he required a driver head with more loft. I found one on the internet which I thought might be useful  and the price was remarkably cheap as the manufacturer had gone bust. I recommended that if he acquired one and brought it over to me I would remove the rubbish stock shaft  and fit him with an appropriate T3 and we could then take it from there.

John duly imported the suggested driver head, but instead of bringing it directly over took it out for testing and immediately declared the head as being unusuable because the face angle was closed, which indeed it was.  

Anyway, we met in Northampton  with a view to testing some of my T3 drivers.  John was only able to hit a very limited number of balls due to health reasons. However from observing his play it was quite clear that his usual driving technique  had been replaced with a faster and  shorter backswing which was causing serious negative issues.

We worked on this within our very limited time frame and some progress was made.  John went on to hit a few balls with a couple of T3 demo. drivers from which I was able to form an idea as to what might suit.

John left me his own driver and in due course, on his instruction, I removed and fitted his own driver head to my recommended T3.  Not a driver head which I chose or recommended but nevertheless a good starting point for further testing once John had got his normal driving back into the groove.

And so that is how it was left.  Not a full fitting by any means, but the potential for such once John next returned  with his swing anomoly ironed out.  In fairness,  in his posts John made it clear that I did not give him a full custom fit, but his remarks arguably left question marks over both the efficacy of custom fitting and the T3 shaft. 

It is completely irrelevant that I helped John free of charge and that no levy was made for the supply of the T3 or for his old driver strip down and re-build.  But nevertheless arguably unfair that John has posted his less than positive views without having the courtesy to discuss matters with me first.

John,  I hope that we are still friends and the door remains open for us to resume the fitting process if your swing is back to normal.

After which I am confident of a far more positive outcome to this saga provided that you are prepared to be open minded and fair.

Sincerely,  Ivan

You are becoming too temperamental, Ivan. I made no derogatory remarks about your fitting of the T3fine shaft on my driver other than to say that it did not give me any extra length.

I honestly believe that custom fitting for the average player is pointless.

John, 

My character defects are legion. You could have added many more adjectives with no complaint from me.  Anyway, I would like to wish you an enjoyable summer's golf  and the very best for the future. 

Sincerely, Ivan

Thank you, Ivan, hope that you too have a more productive summer, in respect of work and your house in Wales.

I am using the driver you made for me, I still struggle to get the correct flight but it runs pretty well, to its maximum of about 190 yards. My swing is still way too short, as you know and my back is still playing up, so I cannot see any improvement in my ability to get through the ball. Short game is just about keeping me going.

John,

Every shaft's potential will be smothered if head loft is far too severe. No driver head with a loft of well  under 14 degrees will work well for you. Going to a softer shaft won't help as dynamic head loft (i.e. true head loft at impact) will be retarded due to centrifugal force being insufficient at slow swing speeds. In other words the head won't catch up and come in square with a whippier shaft.  It's not the shaft holding you back but rather insufficient head loft. 

I don't however recommend a head change (leastways not for your driver) as such could prejudice your 'grumpy old man' role which you so enjoy playing and which your readers' very likely enjoy.

Keep driving badly. You know that you love complaining about it.  http://www.golfshake.com/scripts/ckeditor362/plugins/smiley/images/regular_smile
.gif" title="smiley" width="20" />

I am one of the many that know that  behind your facade lies a heart of gold. 

P.S. I'm now holding in my hands a left handed  Bang-o-Matic 401 driver head which I have just measured at 14.2 degrees.  That has a square face. Possibly the  right handed version may suit you?  Estimated list price is, subject to checking,  likely around £140.  Such is about the normal price for a good (non-tour version)  head.   A true tour version head generally costs anything between £400. and £800., but is not needed by the vast majority of golfers.    

I know you are right in what you say, Ivan, after all we discussed all this last time I was up with you. I like the head, I like the shaft and I most certainly love the grip, but it is not working for me, so I will take your advice and go back to my 13.5 degree driver.

What will change is that the ball, will flight better but not increase the distance. To do that I need to develop a little bit of a smash factor, which I know is going to be difficult, if not impossible.