Situation:

A stoke is played and the ball goes into and out the other side of a hedge that goes fully across the fairway that has a ditch ( hazard )in front of it. when getting to the ball it is resting on the path that is on the other side of the hedge. there is a strip of grass that runs inbetween the hedge and path that you could just about stand on.

Now when taking relief from the path if you dropped on the strip of grass ( and it didn't roll backwards into the hedge) you would have no backswing to play the shot.

in this instance is it tough luck and you have to drop behind the path onto this strip of grass ( even though 1 club length puts you into the hedge) or can you go sideways until you come across some grass ( but no nearer the hole )

Lewis,

Without seeing the position I can't give a definate Ruling.

But!

First the path must not be an 'integral part of the course'.

Then, where is the NPR (Nearest Point of Relief) from where the ball sits. If it is under the hedge, hard luck. But if it is in the Hazard, then you can drop the other side of the path.

Hope this helps.

TheLyth

Interesting one, Lewis, but I would say that if you dropped on the little bit of grass between the path and the hedge in all probability you would still have one foot at least on the path and therefore entitled to relief again , but where?

I would think that the only solution would be to go back behind the hedge in line with the hole and drop there.

I saw on one of the televised golf what may have been a similar situation. Phil Mickleson decided that he would be in more trouble dropping the ball and played the ball from the path.

Having said this Phil Mickleson swept the ball off the path without a spark andlanded it on the green, but if he scraped his club the sponsers would give him a new one.

tough one?

John,

Don't forget that if the path is an 'immoveable obstruction' then relief is under Rule24-2 and no dropping in line as you suggested. That is Rule 26 for a Water Hazard.

TheLyth

Well, Lyth, as it is the nearest point of relief and that only brings up the same problems then surely he would have to take relief not nearer but away from the parth, or he will just be repeating the same problem. There has to be a solution cannot remain a stalemate, can it?

the above pic is the situation. What wasn't clear was if it should be dropped just to the left of the ball on path or at the point NPR HERE?? marker ....no nearer the hole

Lewis,

I believe (I will check) that the NPR is just to the left of the G in Grass. NPR can be under a bush that would make the ball unplayable. It is only when the NPR is in a different situation ( "through the green" to either "hazard" or "putting green" ) that it moves from the single spot it can be.

In this situation, if it is impossible to find a spot that is playable on the Tee side of the path, a 'Drop Zone' should be provided.

TheLyth

Lewis, I think the answer is that whilst you are entitled to relief from the path you are not entitled to a clear swing having taken relief.  Therefore, if you can drop the ball on the grass strip that is the nearest point of relief even if you have no backswing! 

This happens quite often at our club with bushes bordering paths and the better players will always elect to play from the path.

Richard

You are correct in  suggesting that Lewis does not have to have a clear swing after getting relief, but looking at the situation, if he did drop on that thin piece of grass his stance would still be on the path , so relief would have to be given again.

24-2b/3 Player Determines Nearest Point of Relief But Physically Unable to Play Intended Stroke

Q. In proceeding under Rule 24-2b(i) or Rule 25-1b(i), the Definition of "Nearest Point of Relief" provides that to determine the nearest point of relief accurately, the player should use the club, address position, direction of play and swing (right or left-handed) that he would have used to make his next stroke had the obstruction or condition not been there. What is the procedure if, having determined the stroke he would have used, he is unable physically to make such a stroke from, what would appear to be, the nearest point of relief because either (a) the direction of play is blocked by a tree, or (b) he is unable to take the backswing for the intended stroke due to a bush?

A. The point identified is the nearest point of relief. The fact that at this point the player cannot make the intended stroke due to something other than the obstruction or condition from which relief is being taken does not alter this result. The player must drop the ball within one club-length of the nearest point of relief, not nearer the hole. Once the ball is in play, the player must then decide what type of stroke he will make. This stroke may be different from the one he would have made from the ball's original position had the obstruction or condition not been there.

There is a rules myth that you can take your ball on an arc until you find a nice spot to drop your ball. The clue is in the title - NEAREST point of relief. As Richard said, you have to make a judgement as to whether taking a drop could leave you in a worse position than a decision to play it as it lies.

Thanks James, I had hoped the two day EGU Rules Course I attended earlier this year wasn't a waste of time!

Richard

John, the critical point was that Lewis said there was just about room to stand on the grass strip.  Therefore, the ball would be in play.

Richard

cheers guys,

That all makes sense - and on that strip of grass I could just about get a 'normal' stance in....but 1 club length from that NPR could have had the ball roll backwards  under the bush into the ditch hazard if dropped at the 1 club length maximum directly backwards.

In this instance would I have to take the penalty of the ball in the hazard or would it be drop twice then place on the third?

I'm guessing that it would be place on the third, thus leaving me with no backswing and having to hit out sideways from the grass. This was a very intersting call due to the width of the strip of grass

Lewis, you have to drop the ball within 1 club length of NPR.  Under the bush is in play even if it leaves you with no shot.  If it went in the hazard you would redrop and then place as you suggested.  Sometimes the rules work in your favour but quite often they will work against you.  At least you know what the rules are!

very interesting

how far back off the path is the nearest point of relief, and how close is this point to the hazard?

you are not allowed to drop the ball in a hazard so would this complicate matters if the hazard is within 1 club length of the nearest point of relief?

Also, if you take relief from the path, am i correct in assuming that you cannot have any contact with the path with any part of your body or club at anytime during your attempt to play the ball?  otherwise you incur a penalty?  i am unsure about this as i seem to recall a similar scenario within the rules of golf and this would be in equity with the rules.

so would it be just better to take your medicine and play the ball as it lies and knock it forward onto the fairway, or take a penalty drop unplayable lie and go back behind the hedge and gutter and play from there.

Colin, first point, you must drop within 1 club length from the nearest point of relief.  You do not neccessarily have to have 1 full club length available to you.

Secondly, as you correctly indicated, if you take relief you must take full relief from the condition.  In this case, the path.  This would include stance, lie and intended area of swing (that is relief from the path but not the hedge).

Richard

Richard

i agree, and every situation has to be judged on its own unique circumstances.

I have never come across any such scenario as above and it is interesting to know the full extent of the options available.

I did not know that 'You do not neccessarily have to have 1 full club length available to you.'

so, hypothetically, say you are within 1 club length of a hazard and the player taking the drop clearly does not like or want the option of dropping his ball where it will roll into a worse position, and the player keeps dropping the ball in the hazard, what is the ruling?

Also, if the ball rolls under the hedge above and the only way to get the ball is to lay on the ground in a position that forces you to touch the path which you have taken relief from, what is the ruling?

personally i would look to play the ball as it lies and take the rub of the green, but if you have no option but Take Free Relief you would expect a Drop Zone to be available.

If you are forced to drop in a position that also forces you to play sideways, but can't because you are standing on the path, what is the ruling?

I cannot believe that you have to be forced into playing only 1 option available to you toward the flag after you drop the ball! 

What i mean from that is, if you drop the ball on the grass but cannot take the required swing for your required stroke, and the best option is to take a chip out sideways but this requires you to stand on the path, which you have just taken relief from, what is the ruling here?

Colin,

This is one of the Rules that does get a lot of abuse at Club Level. 'Relief' in this case does not mean total relief. The 'Relief' that Rule 24-2 gives is from the object and doesn't take into consideration was is next to it. A tip is always measure and place a Tee before you pick up your ball because you may be better off playing it off the path.

TheLyth

Colin,

In answer to your question :- " What i mean from that is, if you drop the ball on the grass but cannot take the required swing for your required stroke, and the best option is to take a chip out sideways but this requires you to stand on the path, which you have just taken relief from, what is the ruling here? "

Once the ball is dropped and is back in play, it becomes a new situation so relief in your scenario can be taken.

TheLyth

David,

i agree, assess your problem and see if relief actually improves your situation, if not, yes, play it off the path. 

The diagram is very helpful but it doesn't show any distances.

However, the NPR will be soewher near or in the hedge. If the player drops it short of the hedge and says he will play sideways (towards the bottom of the screen) he now has a new situation wher his feet are now on the path again. He may now take relief for this side ways shot and it may well be that his NPR is now on the far side ofthe ditch (depending on the width of the ditch, the hedge and where his ball lies.

As has been said, work out all the options BEFORE even touching the ball.

Incidentally, if the ball is dropped and falls into the hedge, even if the players feet are on the path for the sideways shot, he will unlikely to qualify for relief according to the Exception to Rule 24-2.

In order to g