Firstly,

to David Thomas, sorry for highjacking your thread, that was not my intention and I wish you good luck with your golf.

To SLD, I am posting a link to a short video I made after our discussion earlier: http://youtu.be/9l38yBcoqxE, I hope this goes someway towards justifying my earlier comment "Remember, the ball doesn't care what your knee is doing!" which (I think) you said was "patently incorrect" (or words to that effect) and that "If I had not corrected it then very likely another Golfshaker would."

This was my favourite part:

 "There are many views to be potentially argued, and likewise theories, but one would have to have totally lost the plot to fail to draw a causual relationship between knee action and ball action.  Such is neither a view nor a theory, but rather a fact."

I think therefore I must have lost the plot! Maybe my GC2 launch monitor has also...

David McCallum

Sorry for jumping in before SLD David but just my (ignorant) 2p worth.

If Bubba Watson, John Daly, Jim Furyk, Eamonn Darcy, Calvin Peete ad nauseum can earn a good living at the game does it really matter the angle of the right knee. I prefer to see the swing as a number of interlinked actions where if one doesn't quite achieve the accepted norm/model, another part of the swing will compensate. And as long as those 6inches through the ball are on track the result will be okay - all that's missing is a good short game.

My swing is poor, and my weight transfer isn't pretty but I wouldn't dream of tampering with it. My good rounds are under par, my average rounds are mid 70's and the odd poor round is in the low 80's. In effect what I'm trying to say is there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt you're right but equally SLD's swing concept probably works too. At the end of the day, you've trained for what you do, you've earned a living at it, which suggests you built on that training. And its accepted that what you do is right or you wouldn't have survived. Anything else is just splitting hairs and semantics.

David,

The ball is effectively hit with the right side / leg, and in every case knee action is integral to the procedure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2GbGdYu2VM

It's not my procedure. Simply basic sound golf. If that can't be seen/ accepted then there is little point in me explaining further. A week or two ago I openened a seperate thread enquiring if GolfShakers wanted technical threads. No support was received. From now on my resolve is to keep it simple and understandable for all. I hope that the MPEG does this.

Brian,

I totally agree with your post, that's exactly what I was trying to say, that there is no ONE WAY to play the game only what is best for the individual.

In my video I hit 2 shots with 2 very different knee actions yet both had the same carry distance and shot shape.

David McCallum

David,

Please name me just one European or USA tour player who instead of hitting with their right side / right leg uses (like most high handicappers do) an essentially arms only swing. It doesn't matter how odd their swing looks this basic precept is always present.

Douglas Bader played with stiff legs, and absolutely no knee movement at all. His handicap in his prime, post losing his legs, was 2 and he played for Surrey. So to get down to 2 he must have played lower than 2, all without the use of knees.

So Ivan whilst I agree that the knees play their part in the traditional/model swing I'll stick with the premise that they aren't necessary to score well.

The score determines how good the golfer is, not the swing. So was Bader a poor golfer?

A good friend of mine has lost both legs due to diabetes. He may not be as good as Bader but he's not far behind. Guess what? Another good golfer without knee movement.

This is one of those splitting hairs arguments with no 'winners' or 'losers.'

We all have to remember that Ivans thoughts on this, are because he needs the knees to generate the immense power that he has developed to be competittive in the sport of Long Driving.

We are all aware of the many different swings that the top pro's use, but photos of them all at impact position will be identical.

This is what makes teaching a bit of a lottery where the amateur is concerned.

Brian

Don't take this the wrong way but if you don't have knees you can't use them and they can't cause you a problem.

All Sir Douglas Bader could do was utilise to the best of his ability the physical ability he had.

The point sanders is trying to make is that if you have knees then they have a purpose and if used incorrectly within the swing then they can be directly responsible for bad shots etc.

If you lock your right knee and this causes a reverse pivot and you then follow through and hit the ball, i would have to say that the knee has had a direct influence on the club contacting with the ball. 

Sir Douglas Bader!

Good gracious then let us all model ourselves on a legless man. (Albeit a very very fine one). Not even one tour player - possibly caught a mile short of the relief cubicle after two fine hot curries?

I have been advised that I would be better off writing on Twitter. Non pun intented. (Really).

I'll give it a go. 

Goodbye for the moment chaps. Don't forget your oil cans when it's raining on the course. There's nothing more distracting to fellow golfers than a player with squeaky knees.  http://www.golfshake.com/scripts/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/tounge_smile.gif
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Sanders, who advised you about Twitter ?

This plan could be seriously flawed for you ..................   you can only use 140 characters

Sorry couldn't resist.

I must admit, the Douglas Bader reference was a surprise!

This thread really isn't about what any one player does, only whether the knee has a direct influence on the ball. In my opinion unless you actually strike the ball with your knee (I wouldn't recomend this for fear of leaving you with dimpled knees! ) it cannot have a direct influence on the ball.

That is not to say that good use of the legs is worthless, just that the physics of impact suggest that only 5 things can directly influence the ball. These are:

I think that if you watch my video closely, the swing was the same both times, I isolated one component  (the bloody knee) and changed only that in the 2nd swing. The result was the exact same carry distance (172 yards) and very similar shot shapes (slight push draws).

Did it therefore have a direct influence on the ball? NO! Can it influence swing shape and body motion? MOST DEFINATELY, but not the ball!

David McCallum

PS. I liked the squeeky knees! http://www.golfshake.com/scripts/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/teet
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Guys,

I think some of you misunderstand the point I was making, and maybe need to have read at all my previous posts in this. My point was its possible to play good golf with or without all the accepted components of the swing working 100%. The result might not be a 300+yd drive but it might be 275yds. Or one guy might be hitting an 8 iron into the green whilst the guy with the 'dodgy' swing might be hitting a 6 iron, and two putts later both guys walk off with the same score.

You will also see that I decried neither Ivan or David but did in fact say they're both right. Jeez, maybe little more decaf needed guys.

And to repeat, its the score that determines the good player, not the swing.

Exactly, Brian, it is a game of how many.

David

i hear what you are saying, and that is,  your swing and anything that has any influence or impact on your swing does not have a direct influence on the ball as it is only the club that strikes the ball. 

The 5 points you have stated can all be influenced by your knee positions.  It is wholly irrelevant whether you or physics describe this as a direct or indirect influence on the ball. 

If a golfer consistently plays with his knees in the wrong position in relation to his other body parts then he will struggle and will not reach anywhere near his potential.  And there is the risk of serious injury. 

Good body rotation requires all limbs and joints to work in a coordinated fashion with an even resistence.

Striking the ball the maximum distance posible requires all your limbs and joints to work together so as the club hits the ball in the perfect spot on the clubs face and the back of the ball. 

I woulnd't mind chipping in on this one.

David McCallum - your logic seems to be a little flawed in your video example, becasue your right knee at address and at impact are pretty much identical in both videos.

If your statement is to be believed ("Remember, the ball doesn't care what your knee is doing!" It would be more scientific to see a video with your right knee locked in the postion it is during the backswing - all the ay through impact.

If your knee action is irrelevent to your impact angles and consistency, I question why your knee automatically returns to the same place in both videos.

Jonny P,

The above video was in direct response to a questions on another thread where the players right knee straightened early in the backswing. So one swing with the knee remaining flexed and then one swing with the knee straightening early on backswing was recorded.

If I was doing this scientifically I would have categorized every possible knee position and movement and recorded it all. I didn't bother with that as I have a golf school to run which pays for my time.

The point here is that the right knee, left knee, either elbow or even your head cannot directly influence the ball unless it strikes it. Only the club, which is being used to strike the ball, can directly influence the ball and it can be manipulated and manuevered to produce the required results.

A change in the knee movement alone is not enough to change the ball flight. This is what the video shows and is meant to show.

Learn to control what the club does through impact and you will learn to control the ball. This is what Jim Furyk, Luke Donald, Lee Westwood and Tiger woods all do. Anyone can.

David McCallum

Ball flight is 100% influenced by body motion. So what your body does must have a direct influence on ballflight.  Different parts of the body obviously have varying levels of influence and that varies with each player and how they like to swing the club.

For a lot of amateur golfers, straightening the right knee in the backswing has a dramatic effect on the path of the clubhead (often being overly inside) which places them in a very difficult position on which to hit the ball reliably and on their intended target.

My point was that the only thing your video demonstrated is that you can straighten your knee on the backswing and still return it to decent impact angles. That is to be expected from a good player who has hit enbough balls to have a body that instinctivly knows where it needs to be at impact.

Unfortunately this isn't a rule for the majority of golfers.
 

This is turning into a pointless thread because it is clear everyone is not taking the comments in the context that they are meant.  Everyone knows that you need a consistent repeatable swing and tempo. 

Everyone's swing is unique to themselves as individuals, so for what ever reason some golfers find that when they play their shots and at the point of contact their knees are not in the conventional position, but, these golfers have repeatable swings and their body parts react the same on all shots and these body parts react the same.

Now, take this golfer and change his knee positions and thereby give him a different leg movement through the swing and through contact on the ball and you will find that this will have an effect on how he strikes the ball. 

When the above change occurs to the natural knee positions in the usual swing you will find that the hands and eyes will attempt to compensate for this change.  

if you take your normal setup and strike the ball with a driver and then compare the ball flight etc with taking your normal setup and then moving the ball 2 inches either forward, backwards, nearer or further from you then the ball flight etc will most probably be different, so,  did the change in ball position have a direct or indirect effect on the difference betwenn both ball flights.  The same goes for taking a wider than normal stance, closed or open stance. 

The point i am trying to get across is that if a golfer changes his knee positions from his usual knee positions then this will change the ball flight be it trajectory, direction or distance from that of his normal knee position.