Forum > Technique, Tips & Tuition

David Ferris

right i have got myself to a decent enough standard now where i want to take my game to the next level with some shot shaping. ive no problem fading the ball or hitting it dead straight but ive been working on getting a nice draw and some days i can work it and other days not. i can get the face to close nicely just by small changes to my grip but i have a tendency to hook it way inside left if it goes wrong which is more often than not. i am assuming this is because im hitting the ball with a closed clubface on an out to in path. maybe its bacause the ball is too far forward and the club is naturally on its way back in on its arc. so i was thinking maybe ifi have the ball a bit back in my stance.

does anybody have any good set up tips about how to set up CONSISTENTLY for a draw so everything is always where it should be. then i could go and practice it more. at the minute it seems im getting differing results when i think im doing the same thing which obviously im not and im convinced its my setup more than anything else

John Pettitt

Unless you have a swing path that is from the inside, then consistently hitting a draw will always be difficult.

There really are two basic ways to produce a draw and the one that is often recommended is to line up with the clubface pointing at the target, then closing the whole stance down by, usually dropping the right foot back a little. Swing normally and the ball should start right and then come back to the middle towards the end of the flight.

The other method is one that requires a great amount of feel and one that I have always used with my short irons and that is to ensure that the hands rotate through the ball from the inside. This is very easy for me as I play with an open clubface at the top of the swing, so to achieve this I am opening the clubface all the way to the top and closing it all the way down to impact, with it closing after impact, thus imparting the spin required to draw the ball softly.

This method also means that I am able to hit a draw from an open stance.

Matt Simmons

John Pettitt

Dave ley

John Pettitt

The slight drawback to that method, Dave, is that if the follow through is not comnpleted then the ball will go straight right.

You do draw the ball very well. especially with your driver and long irons, none better in my opinion, but your method would not suit the average player, as he would not understand how he has to really work the hands throught the impact area.

Dave ley

Dave ley

This should explain what I mean

Dave ley

David Marshall

Dave ley

David Ferris

cheers guys as i said i know what is required to make the ball draw, ie. closed face at impact, in to out swing path and some days i can hit one after another with no probs whatsoever then other times (usually when im in a game and aiming over the out of bounds to draw it back in) i will hit it on a path that starts a bit left and hooks much further left which im assuming is because the club is just on its way back in. im assuming im not coming over the top as i dont when im hitting it straight and im using the same swing and it makes sense if the ball is too far forward and im not making impact until the club is returning back inside from its furthest point away then it is going to a. cause the ball to be hit inside and b. cause the clubface to rotate even further shut than i am intending.

thats why im thinking maybe the ball needs to be further back in my stance but whereabouts in the stance would be good as if i put it too far back the club face wont have time to shut and i'll hit it out right with probably even more right fade on top. would centre of stance be good? thanks again anyway guys i will keep practising until i can do it as it would definitely make a few holes i play a lot easier if i could do it on demand

Dave ley

David, closed club face at impact you are going to go left and the more inside you come or hood the club then the hooks creep in, If you want the ball to start left then thats where the club face should be aiming the ball will always leave the club face in the direction it has been hit by the club face,what shapes the ball is the swing path in relation to club head,If you see in my video my ball takes off on the club face direction the swing path is more outside the line of the ball flight before swinging left.

So club face square at impact ball goes down taget line and then left '

clubface clsed at impact ball goes left then left again = hook.

I'm a guy who had suffered the hooks for a long time and is still my one bad shot.

And into out swing path is a must for a good draw,

Hope this helps.

David Ferris

David Ferris

@ dave i actually saw a video on youtube last night with a technique very similar to yours. ie. clubface pointing in flight direction body pointing at target and then the guy said to pull your back foot back off the line of your shoulders  a bit so (if im understanding him correct) the shoulders are still aligned at the taget but the feet would be aligned a bit open to the target (maybe along the same ball flight line where the face is pointing) is this what you are doing?

 i played 9 holes today and never had time to practice it as i was in a game but i did try it once just to see and i hit a big slice instead so i must be doing something wrong

John Pettitt

Dave ley

John heres one I did today 18th Parc

1)Shoulders ,hips and feet square to target(flag)

2)Club face aiming at right hand bunker.

3) swing path bush right of bunker.

I grip the club openfaced to right of target ,at impact club face still open stop the film and see that  my right hand is still under left through impact and for about another 6-8" before rotating over, This was a 7 iron the flag was 177yrds away , ball took off on right bunker drew back and pitched 8ft infront of flag and spun about 6-7ft back and left. Of cause i missed the putt

Dave ley

David, if yourswing path is of a lesser degree than the open face it will slice if its on the same degree it will block/push if its greater it will draw. It's not the only way to draw as JP says it's just the way I choose. I can also fade and draw the ball with grip pressure and how i lean the shaft at address all this depends on how well i'm swinging.

I would concentrate on hitting with a square clubface with an in to out swing path for starters, and see what ball flight you get, Remember the ball flight never lies,good luck.

David Ferris

cheers again guys and dave i notice from your video the only thing that is different from the video i watched on youtube appears to be that you dont drop the back foot back but i think the idea of that is just to make it easier to take the club back on the inside to get you on the required plane. i think it will just be practice but you have given me some good places to start and a bit of food for thought about the best way to set up as i was always told club face pointing at target and body pointing to the right which seems to then mean you are gripping the face closed to your swing plane which follows the body which was what i meant earlier by saying a closed clubface.

Dave ley

David Ferris

@ dave

first off my good mate bobby is a fader too but in the night out sense as opposed to golf.lol

secondly and more importantly i just wanted to thank you again cos i went out for a game with my mate today tried what you showed me with no practice whatsoever and then spent the rest of the round happily drawing the ball round the course. awesome stuff and i never missed a fairway all day as it was much more predictable than my usual swing which is usually a straight shot but can sometimes go wild. my m8 was in awe of my ball shaping skills especially as i was able to tell him what i intended to do before actually doing it.  i will practice more till i get it even better but what i like most about this particular setup is that you are not closing/delofting the club so its great for par 3's and infact got me a birdie today on what is usually a tricky little par 3 for me.

so thanks again and if our paths ever cross i owe you a couple of drinks.

Stuart Govan

I agree with John that it is rotating the hands through the ball that promotes a draw (for me). But there are clearly different ways of doing it.

When we played at Clevedon one of my playing partners remarked on my driving that I set up with the face fractionally open and yet still hit it straight or with a slight draw. That sounds to me like what Dave L is describing, except I was definitely rotating my hands through the ball.

Dave ley

John Pettitt

Stuart, if you didn't, then it would go straight right. Forget Leyo, what he thinks he does and what he actually does is two completely different things, although he would never concede that.

An open clubface coming into the ball on an inside line would go straight right unless some form of closure is used.

Stuart Govan

I know John. Have pushed many shots like that.

For a long time I didn't turn my wrists through the ball because in my head I was convinced I would hook the ball if I did that. But acutally when I do, I get a nice draw.

John Pettitt

I have yet to come across a player who has not cocked his wrists at the top of the backswing.

The said thinking from there, is that the cocked angle must be maintained for as long as possible before release.

The clubface must arrive back at the impact position square and it is logic to say that if the club has been kept open it must at some point be returned to square and then closed through the ball.

Everyone uses their hands, even if they think they don't, after all it is the hands that grip the club, direct the club and release the club into the impact position.

Dave ley

I will try and explain again....... The club face is open to target line but closed to swing path so in essense you are still hitting the ball with a closed club face to swing path,,,,,,,, I do not manipulate my hands through impact because when you do you will hook the ball as I have done.

If your target line is 0* and the club face is open 15* and your swing path is 30* then your club face is 15* closed to swing path = draw .  

 I don't rotate my hands through  the ball as they say the camera never lies.

John Pettitt

Dave ley

"When we played at Clevedon one of my playing partners remarked on my driving that I set up with the face fractionally open and yet still hit it straight or with a slight draw. That sounds to me like what Dave L is describing, except I was definitely rotating my hands through the ball."

Stuart it's because your club face is closed to swing path as explained in the ball flight laws video.Your hands return to where they were at address club face slightly open and then rotate after impact if you roll you hands over coming into the ball you are asking for trouble.

John Pettitt

You really are confusing me, Dave, perhaps I have gone senile.

Your hands return to where they were at address club face slightly open and then rotate after impact

This is the first sentence I have understood what you have said and one with which I almost agree. It is far better to arrive back square on an inside path and then rotate immediately after impact. You do and that is why you draw the ball well, but when you do not rotate then the ball finishes up on the practice range at Parc.

Dave ley

Its all in the ball flight laws video john ,

te first one club face open to swing path closed to target line watch the spin  left to right. = Fade

second closed to swing path open to target watch the pin right to left = draw

third club face cosed to swing path and target line ball goes left. = Hook

Ball goes were club face goes and spin takes over.

Dave ley

We may be getting somewhere , and your not senile

 If I swing from the inside path say at 30* and my club face is also 30* open I will hit the ball dead straight 30* Right,  for every 1* open above 30* on face angle the ball will slice 32* 33* 34* 35* will slice even more. 

Chris Perry

I think I get it Dave.  What you're saying is that the face of the club is still closed at impact in relation to the swing plane, but not in relation to your body line as the swing plane is in-to-out.  If the face was closed in relation to your body line as well, you would hook rather than draw as the face would be too closed. 

Right?

Dave ley

Spot on.

This is why Hogan / Moe were so good they understood ball flight in relation to club face

Moe's swing path down the target line with a square club face = hit every ball straight.

Hogan really flat open club face swung in to square to low left  = ball flight straight tail off right.

Chris Perry

Tim Hawkins

Dave ley

Tim if you were hitting the ball straight then your swing path and club face were square to target line at impact.

Tim Hawkins

Stuart Govan

Tim, what you call exaggerated wrist roll is probably not exaggerated at all, just feels that way if you've never done it before. If you have that feeling, it means you are swinging in to out to in again.

Don't start gettting too good a ball striker. You're enough of a bandit as it is.

Danny Brant

Stuart Govan

I can also fade and draw the ball with grip pressure and how i lean the shaft at address all this depends on how well i'm swinging.  

Dave, how do you lean the shaft then to get a fade?

By angling the shaft so that the butt points to the top of my left thigh I have been getting a nice draw. To get a fade do you reverse this, so that the butt is pointing more towards the back leg and the shaft is leaning backwards? And do you grip harder or softer?