Forum > General golf topics

Wayne Santorini

The reason I ask the above is because I was chatting to someone the other day whom was interested in having lessons after a long lay off from playing.

When I told him my price (which is cheap, bearing in mind it's more like 1 1/2 hours not just 1 hour) ) he said blimey I thought you'd charge about £8 or £10 an hour and suddenly wasn't interested anymore and I sat there for a while questioning what had I done wrong.

So tell me guy's what do you want????

Totally honest answers please.

Jon Buckle

Im looking at getting lessons, and looking for my point of view is what it all entails.

On the range i seem to hit them reasonably well.  Im not a big hitter and do slice my driver way, wayyyyyyyyyyyy to the right.  I believe im hitting with an out to in swing path. Im an every day joe kind of person with two kids etc so stumping up £30 or so is not always easy, especially with a wedding to save for for example.  Also not knowing what i get, how or if i will improve etc is also a bearing on how to choose.

I recently had one on holiday although i know it was not as good as some. No swing technology etc.  He told me i was leaning back to much and basically gave me a couple of drills to get the weight to my left foot more.  In no time at all the time was gone and i was £20 worse off.

The inital thought of paying an amount of money is off putting (excuse the pun) until you see the improvment. I would gladly part with it if i seen a vast improvment on the course.

 I have found a pro local to me (Lee Park Golf Club) if anyone knows it.  His prices seem the cheapest with the same technology as others at £25 per hour, and to be honest im looking at him initially because of cost.  I may review this after a couple of sessions etc. but for now it a money issue.

At the lesson i want a good honest analysis. I would just like to know what im doing wrong from my initial setup to create my slice. Get this cured and im sure that would also improve my irons. From there go onto an all round game improvment. One lesson short game, another putting, another bunkers etc etc..

 Is this how it usually works?

John Sweeney

John Flood

Wayne,

when I go for a lesson I want to hit balls, I don't want to chat for 30mins otherwise I lose interest & get bored. I think a maximum of 10mins should be enough.

I also want to feel comfortable & build up a rapour. I don't expect to see drastic improvements right away but I do want to feel that when I go away I'm armed with the information / techniques etc to work with on the range / course

I currently pay £18 for 30mins but as I have been seeing the same pro for over 7yrs it's more like 60mins after the banter & "let's just hit a few more balls". 

Don't under value yourself Wayne as you are a good teacher / coach from whom anyone would benefit.

John. 

Chris Perry

Key for me is to ask the pupil EXACTLY that question at the beginning.  Then watch them hit a few balls and tell them what you would do to help them get what they want out of it and how long it would take.  You could even offer an "assessment lesson" where you could do this and agree a plan to go forward. 

Don't try a rebuild of someone's swing if they want tweaks.  I had a pro try to do this with me, trying to get me to a textbook swing.  He wasn't teaching me for long.  Everybody has a personal swing and it's up to the player whether they want you to break this down and rebuild it 'properly' or just help them to make it work for them

Jamie C

^ Like Chris said, that's what my pro does. He always ask me at the start what i want to work on, what's the problem is then assess my swing, my body rotation etc. Once he has done that, he explain to me breaking down the answers so that i can understand WHY and WHAT i'm doing wrong so that way, next time it happens, i'll know why and wouldn't need him to tell me the answers again.

Then he try and adjust my swing, body rotation or alignment to correct my faults. 

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. 

I have read alot of good comments regarding your teaching Wayne and i must say, i'm actually tempted to have a lesson with you one day! So i'm sure you're doing just great. 

One disadvantage is the price x amount of minutes. I pay 20 pounds for 30 minutes, 30 minutes seem about the right time but the price is extreme considering they only stand there and assess what i'm doing wrong. Without technology as well. If there were some sort of a video evidence, i would definetly be happy to pay 20 pounds.

Loud Mouth b.a.

Twice already technology has been mentioned in this thread with the inference being (please correct me if I'm wrong) that such is some sort of teaching essential.

Apart from video playback to the pupil, why is technology so highly rated? What actually does it do?

We are talking about teaching here, not club fitting.

Please explain because I really do not understand why some pupils see some type of technology as being essential in the teaching process. If I were to play back a pupil's tape and and mark it up with lever angles nine times out of ten it would simply confuse all but the very sophisticated player.

Apart from extremely fast swingers (whom I will often record) it is generally easy to spot what is happening and instantly illustrate what needs correcting without wasting time messing about with filming.

Are we simply speaking of video technology, or is there some other type of technology which I am missing? 

Jamie C

^ Like Chris said, that's what my pro does. He always ask me at the start what i want to work on, what's the problem is then assess my swing, my body rotation etc. Once he has done that, he explain to me breaking down the answers so that i can understand WHY and WHAT i'm doing wrong so that way, next time it happens, i'll know why and wouldn't need him to tell me the answers again.

Then he try and adjust my swing, body rotation or alignment to correct my faults. 

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. 

I have read alot of good comments regarding your teaching Wayne and i must say, i'm actually tempted to have a lesson with you one day! So i'm sure you're doing just great. 

One disadvantage is the price x amount of minutes. I pay 20 pounds for 30 minutes, 30 minutes seem about the right time but the price is extreme considering they only stand there and assess what i'm doing wrong. Without technology as well. If there were some sort of a video evidence, i would definetly be happy to pay 20 pounds.

Jamie C

David Lythgoe

It is a lot easier to take something in if you can see it. By using Video that can be done. Too many people charge or expect up to £20 p.h. for their job but begrudge paying a Professional Sportsman for his time and expertese.

£20 for half an hour with a Coach is nothing compared to 10min with David Leadbetter or Butch Harmen. Add a zero.

Thelyth

Loud Mouth b.a.

Jamie,

Noted. But if a coach films it takes time and at least 15 mins to play back, mark up, and discuss technicalities. No pupil would be happy with a mobile 'phone playback!

"price is extreme considering they only stand there and assess what i'm doing wrong."

How valuable one considers coaching to be is for each person to decide. I place great value on coaching and once flew from England to Texas principally for a short lesson with a master. Each minute of coaching possibly cost me £75. if I factored in flight  and hotel costs etc.

In the final analysis one chooses to have a lesson and pay the money or not. No coach will mind being asked in advance what his charge will be.

My casual U.K. coach sometimes films me, but the lesson then takes longer and I naturally have to pay extra.

One should also bear in mind that many coaches do nothing else but coach for a living. Naturally they are not working every hour of every day and four hours of coaching in any day would, for many, be considered to be a good day.

So let's look at some figures:

Let's say coach deserves £30,000. per annum. He works for 48 weeks a year during which time he clocks up say 720 teaching hours.

720 into 30,000. works out at over £41. per hour.     

Jamie C

Haha ok point proven Ivan! You certainly do know your stuffs don't you?

Loud Mouth b.a.

Chris,

I completely agree. But, for example, sometimes a pupil is making several mistakes within his own swing frame. Correct  all faults and the swing remains the same but nevertheless feels completely new.

David,

The Butch Harmon school tends to promote 2/3/4 day teach-ins which is the most effective way to go when pupils visit on a ‘one hit’ basis. One can only get things to tentatively hang together on a half day session and an early relapse is always possible.  

 Jamie,

Thanks. But ,anything I ‘know’ is largely not gained from book learning  but comes from within.

Jon B,

Speaking generally, what is extremely important is that after a lesson a pupil really works hard at implementing what has been taught - on the lounge carpet, and / or  back yard /  range /   practice ground. As a rule of thumb each lesson should be followed by at least ten hours of hard purposeful practice before venturing out onto the golf course. 

It tends not to happen, and what often happens instead is that a pupil simply thinks that they have been 'fixed' (possibly like a broken bone that has healed); then immediately proceeds out onto the course; and under the pressure of competing   the player's mind  reverts back to the old safe way of doing things, in which event absolutely nothing is achieved. 

Golfers tend to seek  magic clubs and / or a quick fix lesson. Instead there is only one answer - hard work, followed by more hard work, followed by.....  All a coach does in a lesson is open the door to opportunity. The rest is down to the pupil. 

Most amateur players prefer to play golf rather than to work at their golf. One only gets out proportionally to what one puts in by way of practice. Literally (and truthfully) more than 99% of my time (as a Longdrive competitor)  is practice time and study, and less than 1% is actual competition time. Improvement is proportional to purposeful practice. One can 'practice' by repeatedly playing rounds of golf, long jumping or whatever, but such is the long hard way to achieve results.

Without a realistic approach to sport what generally follows is stress and frustration. I suggest that a realistic approach for an amateur golfer might be 55%  study / lessons / practice / stretching etc. and 45% competitive golf. A total of at least 7 hours a week for those seeking to improve.

Wayne,

You have a growing excellent reputation. But we all need to grow a thicker skin, work towards total confidence in ourselves,  and properly value our own services.  Only work with those whom respect you and value your work.

Scott Dench-smith

I have looked into lessons and at first glance if feels expensive, But if having a lesson on a range you can easily hit upwards of 50 balls in half an hour, that is the same amount of shots in half a round. With a pro watching your every shot you can get a serious amount of learning done.

£20-£30 isn't to bad if its the right teacher for the student. I have had private martial arts lessons and have paid around that amount and the work and what you can learn on a one to one basis is well worth the money.

SDS 

Wayne Santorini

Ok first of all I think my question didn't come out right due to the answers above. I know I'm offering the right service as the following is an overview;

I rarely do "One Off" lessons as nothing is sorted after just one, however I look at it as a way of people getting to see me and my style, and for me to see how motivated they are.

My fees are very reasonable, and once a "one off" is done if the client comes back to continue then he books a block of 5 and I give 6.

I send out a 15 page Assessment form which we will then sit down and discuss (at no cost and usually close to a couple of hours) to agree the course of action and benchmarks.

I am available 24/7 (within reason) on the phone or skype whilst your coaching is ongoing and during the block of sessions I will give a 9 hole playing session (again within the price).

So when I know what I'm offering!!! what got to me was the fact that the person I mentioned previously only wanting to pay £8 - £10 quid a session was taking the p**s don't you think.

Darren Ramowski

Potential flaw in golf coaching with it not being seen as a service/product but just someone's time.

Paying for someone's time of £25 for an hour could be seen as expensive when the minimum wage is £6-£8 per hour in the UK

People need to appreciate is part of an overall service with behind the scene costs like any business; background training, on going training/experience, equipment, traveling etc etc

I'll stop before I start ...................  

Loud Mouth b.a.

Darren,

All good points.

It would be naive of anyone to think that all hours worked are chargeable hours. Anyone involved with either club building or lessons tends to  spend many hours on the telephone and responding to e-mails from enquirers and existing customers giving out free advice.

Last week for me I was so tied up for around 15 hours and sold only one service item. I spent in excess of three and a half hours with one customer - spread out over several days - explaining and repeating the ins and out of TaylorMade shaft sleeves and their fitting. At the end of it he thanked me and declared that he had found a sleeve for £1.20 less elsewhere!

I have just cast my mind back over the last few years to some of the service providers I have used: Chiropractitioner, physiotherapist, various doctors, specialist dentist, home visit mechanic,  solicitor, accountant, club builders, plumber etc. The cheapest amount which I have paid was around the £50.  per hour mark (other han my golf coach), and the most expensive was well in excess of £500. per hour.

Ray Lawlor

(I've only read your original post because I haven't the time at the moment to read the rest of the replies so forgive me if the topic has moved on as it does so frequently on these forums)

Wayne,

Personally I think £8/£10 per hour was an insult to your craft. If you stack shelves at the local supermarket, you'd expect to get £8 an hour.

I'm not trying to belittle supermarket workers, but compared to the amount of training and talent involved in becoming a qualified golf professional.

But to answer your question, what do we want:

1. A miracle worker capable of transforming our game to professional standards. We want you to instill talent in us on a par with Rory McIllroy.

2. Do it within 5 lessons

3. Charge £5 a lesson with the first 3 free.

I jest obviously.

Bare in mind too Wayne, that some people are REALLY REALLY tight.

Wayne Santorini

Jon Buckle

Ok first of all I think my question didn't come out right due to the answers above. I know I'm offering the right service as the following is an overview;

I rarely do "One Off" lessons as nothing is sorted after just one, however I look at it as a way of people getting to see me and my style, and for me to see how motivated they are.

My fees are very reasonable, and once a "one off" is done if the client comes back to continue then he books a block of 5 and I give 6.

I send out a 15 page Assessment form which we will then sit down and discuss (at no cost and usually close to a couple of hours) to agree the course of action and benchmarks.

I am available 24/7 (within reason) on the phone or skype whilst your coaching is ongoing and during the block of sessions I will give a 9 hole playing session (again within the price).

So when I know what I'm offering!!! what got to me was the fact that the person I mentioned previously only wanting to pay £8 - £10 quid a session was taking the p**s don't you think.[/quote]

If i told you i want a lesson and you quoted say £40 an hour. I would just compare you with others and think everyone else is around that cost.

If you told me all the above. Assessment paper, 9 hole playing lesson. 6 lessons for 5 i would instantly see im getting more for my money, and more importantly it would show that your giving some extra time and effort which shows you seem serious in wanting me to improve.

Without critising, did you tell this bloke what he would be getting for that price.  A bit of marketting and actually selling yourself maybe a good idea.

Out of interest, where are you located Wayne?

Jack Hart

Out of interest Wayne had the person interested in lessons looked around elsewhere, or had lessons before?

maybe he was just misinformed about pricing

Wayne Santorini

I told him everything Jon, including the prices, but he's not the only one.

Rather than me assume they want Harrods service for Coke Cola prices, I asked the question, also is it a Northern thing??? is it because  (as is usual) they get their mate (whom is off a high handicap) to do it for nothing and teach them exactly that Nothing

It's one of the reasons I'm looking to go abroad and live, the mentality to having lessons abroad is a natural thought!! and they know that to improve, they will continue with lessons. Yet over here everyone says they want to improve, but won't pay.

Jon I'm in the North West

Jon Buckle

David Lythgoe

The problem with Golf is that anyone can visit a shop and buy Books, Video/CD's & Magazines claiming to contain an answer to all Golf Swing problems. "Learn how to hit it further, straighter and less often".

I believe that a serious Golfer should treat his Game in the same way as their Health. You feel unwell and you visit your Doctor. They give you the once over and if any serious problems your sent to see a Specialist. To link this Thread to another about Club Membership, I also think that the Club Pro should also think like a Doctor and be happy to give 'tips' to Members and then book them in for lessons if the problem doesn't have a simple solution.

TheLyth 

Wayne Santorini

Pete Hadden

Since my first set of six lessons which were an 18th birthday present from my mum and dad well over thirty years ago I have had lots of lessons with lots of different pros (probably a mistake, I should have stuck with one). Thinking back it seems that 100% of instruction relates to the swing and none to scoring - nobody would teach a young player to swing like Arnold Palmer, Eamon Darcy, Jim Furyk or even Bubba Watson but we all wish we could score like them.

I understand that while these players may have unconventional swings their clubface is square, on plane and accelerating through impact; my point is that perhaps more instruction should be focussed on scoring rather than purely on trying to give every golfer a "textbook" swing.  

Scott Dench-smith

Sorry I misread your original post and I will try to answer as the beginner golfer. 

From what I have read you are a very good if not exceptional instructor and will spend the time with your students and will improve their game.  

What I would want is some kind of similar package. For the sake of argument if I was to book a block booking of say five lessons with you with a deposit down to make me come back and for you not to lose out on your time (time is money after all) take me onto the course and simply watch me play 3-4 holes time permitting call this a freebie, even though it wouldn't be as you have the deposit. 

Then give me the lessons 2 3 and 4 to improve my swing, stance etc on the range. 5th lesson take me around the same holes we did originally and see the improvement. 

If their is any, which I am sure there would be, I would be begging for more lessons and would be more than happy to pay the normal rate you charge.

SDS 

Wayne Santorini

Pete trying to learn to score is the most problematic of all problems.

Learn to hit the ball well, know your yardages and cut your putts to maximum of 2 and your score will come.

Scott, there is more to golf than just swinging a club, there's Course Management (thinking your way around a course), State Management (controlling your emotions).

As for doing 3 - 4 holes and then going back to see the difference isn't going to help, YOU will notice the difference in how your swinging, your thought process and choice of club depending on your target area.

Also sessions are not geared to 1 lesson sorts grip, 2 lesson sorts stance the way forward is governed by your learning style and how quick you develop, everyone is different in learning to a degree.

I don't allow my clients to practice anything unless I KNOW they can perform correctly everytime, it's all too easy to go back to bad habits (neural pathways)

Scott Dench-smith

Cheers for the info Wayne, I have never had lessons but I will remember what you said when I sign up for them and ask the instructor what he offers. I regard myself as an absolute novice but will be looking at lessons sometime in September. 

But with money a problem regarding frequency of a lesson, would I get the benefit of having 1 lesson a month as long as I follow what the instructor has told me when I am out on the course with my playing partner. Or would you recommend more at my level 

Pity you don't live in Mansfield.

SDS 

Christopher Watmore

I'm going to start taking some lessons again in the next few weeks. This is what I'm going to be looking for from the Pro and if I don't get it then I'll look else where:

1. Pro listens to me, when I explain my problems or issues and looks to address those. i.e. If I say I'm struggling to hit Greens in regulation, I don't want him messing with my Driver swing or wanting to look at my putting.

2. We have a clearly defined pathway with an outcome established. I don't want to spend lessons covering the same ground and want to know there is a goal or reward at the end of the lessons.

3. If I don't understand something he/she says or am not doing what he/she is telling me, then I want them to physically show me. So if for example I'm not getting the club in the correct position, grab hold of me and put me in that position so I can feel it and then recreate it. I hate Pros who's only method of teaching is verbal instruction. I in my head can play golf brilliantly, I'm just not physically able to do it. So stop talking to me mind which plays golf fine and instead work on getting my body to sync up with it.

4. If after the series of lessons I'm still not scoring better, I'd like some sort of refund or deal, because why should the Pro get paid when he's not done his job?

Wayne Santorini

Agree Chris, but any coach whom is interested in you should learn straight away HOW YOU learn to direct the coaching better.

There should always be an agreement to results, but remember what you learn on the day is down to you to replicate when not with him, hence the reason i don't allow practice unless your doing it correctly to start with.

Loud Mouth b.a.

"There should always be an agreement to results, ..."

What does this mean exactly Wayne? That you give a refund if the student does not improve after the lesson? Are you agreeing with Christopher, namely that if improvement does not follow the lesson then it is because the pro. has not done his job properly? Otherwise why would a refund be given, if such does indeed occur?

If you don't mind me asking, do you film each session and play back and discuss such with each student? What are your views on filming?

Wayne Santorini

I don't film at the moment Ivan but will do at the later stages (once decent equipment sourced). Filming is good and bad depending on student.

Benchmarks for each session are agreed , If info is passed on then the student would know whether he has failed or I have expected too much from him, but only in exceptional circumstances would refunds be given.

I or any coach cannot guarantee results without input from the student

John Goodger

I started playing last year and after being taken to a full 18 hole course a few weeks into the game and very quickly realised that I needed lessons, I went down to my local range and enquired, the PGA guy there charge me £100 for 6 lessons: which extended to about 9 after being messed about a few times with lesson cancellations. Then I booked a further 6 when he had a deal running of 6 for £50 during the month of March. This guy was straight forward sorted out my swing through the bag with no gizmos, corrected my errors when they crept in. Personally I think that I had a good deal from a good teacher. 

The half hours always seemed to go really quick but every time I had a lesson I learned something and had a good laugh. This guy would also do personal 1 to 1 lessons over nine proper course holes for £50 which I always thought was great value.

Yes I would like to see what I do on a screen but if someone can discipline me into making sure that I am doing everything right and I see results then £25 for 30mins is good value, especially if it makes the 3 odd hours on course so much more satisfactory.  

Matt Simmons

Wayne, you and I have spent a fair bit of time chatting about this and also some golf type stuff and to be honest you know that I think you are worth the pennies. We have spoken at length about the attitude to lessons that some people have and to be frank. Would you want to teach those lazy gits anyway?

Ive completed waynes assesment form and OMG!!!!! Its certainly indepth.

For what its worth Santo from the stuff we have done I think you are "Loreal" but luckily I live down south.

Oh and whilst this is here did the money clear? (obviously asking as it hasnt showed this end yet).....