Forum > Any other business?

Ian Cook

We held our first equality meeting last week at Hazel Grove Golf Club in Cheshire.

What was clearly evident was that there were lots of uncertainty and speculation as to what is and isn't allowed by law.

the whole act seemed to much to tackle in one go so we have agreed to all go away and think about the major issue as we see it "FEES" there can no longer be male and female fees, we are all looking at probably a 5,6, and 7  day membership fee or a bronze silver and gold membership package

...the fees for this we have all taken away to muse over as it is clearly essential to achieve the current level of fee income for the club next year, nobody needs a mass exodus to another club locally. Its a finely balanced decision as most of the ladies around the table said that their section had already accepted that there was likely to be fee increase, their concern was more about what will we get back on tee times etc.

Another option which was bounced about was to simply only have 7 day membership for the club for everyone, that way all we needed to do was divide the clubs required fee income by the number of current members and get a figure.

by only having one level of membership it reduces the need for policing the 5 & 6 day members that might try to play on other days.

But there was then an interesting comment about winter league and would ladies be able to play....which they will be entitled to in their own competition if enough members join.  

It was agreed by all the the club competitions and tee times will require a complete overhaul to accommodate the new laws and we notified our comps secretary immediately as it could have implications on the diary being prepared for next year.

We also formed a small sub commitee to review the articles of the club to see where we felt the need for equality could be questioned.

All in all we had a very constructive and enlightening meeting, we have decided that this is so important that we are holding a weekly meeting to get ready to present a report at our AGM in October where any necessary changes should be made.

I realise that there are a lot of male golfers out there who have concerns about equality on the course, unfortunately it will happen at your club so live with it or pack up the game....golf clubs it appears were one of the specific case studies for the laws to be changed.  

Anyone else got anything useful to report on how your club is addressing the equality situation.

Darren Ramowski

Ian Cook

Phil Jones

Ian

 I am the Captain of our club on the Wirral and have been helping in the office. I've only just come across the Bill, and have read the EGU guidance documents.

Everything you say above rings true for us too, and I guess most golf clubs

Its a minefield isnt it? Surely this is going to change the face of golf clubs completely.

It would be good to maybe get a discussion group going onhere to bounce ideas and solutions around - if anyone else interested. Unless there is already sucjh a thing and I havent found it yet.

Phil Jone 

Darren Ramowski

Ian, if you want me to set up a private group/forum to facilitate discussion just let me know.

Regards, Darren. 

Ian Cook

Darren

Thanks for the offer, butt hink it might be better to keep this in the forum, but make it a sticky, as Phil says it could change golf clubs completely

David Lythgoe

If we take it to the extent stated here, gone will be The Curtis Cup, Solheim Cup, Ladies European Tour and LPGA Tour.

I don't think so.

Men and women will still compete in their own Comps, but the Membership of a Club is the main question. No more Lady\Gentlemen Members but 'Members'.

TheLyth 

Rosemary Boardman

Reading your report on your meeting - will the "gold, silver and bronze" have equal voting rights?

Ian Cook

Rosemary

It was discussed and we decided that we also needed a complete overhaul of the clubs articles. these are now being checked by the equalities committee....next meeting this thursday so hopefully more info then.

I seem to remember that there are currently voting issues between 5 and 7 day members, so not sure how a gold, silver and Bronze format would work for voting rights. would we have to have 3,2 & 1 votes for the categories. 

How do you see it working?

Phil Jones

I am also going to a meeting on Thursday - (not the same one is it Ian?) - of all Wirral Secretaries - so hopefully have some ideas and options to share. Be good to pool the ideas and see if we can all come out with some reasonable suggestions.

 Phil

Ian Cook

Phil Jones

Had a very useful meeting with Secretaries from 7 local clubs yesterday and some good ideas. We have started a 'round robin' discussion on issues, and my first email of thoughts is below; any comments welcomed;

-          Fees

Rosemary Boardman

Phil Jones

Rosemary - Yes we changed the constitution last year to allow all members to have a vote, from any category and either sex. Only Social members are barred from a vote.

What club are you - and how are you getting on with the Act.

Phil 

Rosemary Boardman

Hi phil

I am at Runcorn Golf Club but am only the Secretary of the Ladies Section.

We are led to believe that our club is going to stop 5 day members from voting at the Club AGM. At the moment we only have 5 day men members and so they will lose their right to vote. So if in future any ladies wanting to become 5 day members rather than become full members would also not have the right to vote. At present ladies do not pay full fees.

Our Club Secretary in conjunction with our solicitor have drafted an update of the articles of association and drawn up a draft of an update of Runcorn Golf Club rules keeping them in line with the articles. We are a limited company - whether that makes any difference to other clubs.

Iain Cole

Ian,

 What a strange world we live in.  I google the "Equality Act and golf" and end up with you: we're practically neighbours...!

My question for you is the interpretation of dress code that the EGU FAQ has covered.  My desire will be to wear attire that reflects the 'wider society without compromising standards'.  How will HGGC re-act to me turning up on Saturday in sleeveless poloshirt, coloured ankle socks and shorts?  It's ok for Portugal and Spain when I go there and as you are aware my colour coordination dress sense is conventional and appropriate to the golf course.  Care to comment in your sub-committee role?

Cheers!  iain

Ian Cook

Hi Iain

Dont think we will ever get to the position of equality on clothing however i do think that golf clubs will have to look at dress codes on the course as coloured socks ok for ladies and not for men could be considered discriminatory. however there are lot bigger fish that need to be sorted before that. i would suggest that you just keep turning up in your cheerful golfing attire until someone decides enough is enough then the battle can start.

I will add afurther reply on how we see the story so far in a new post.

Phil Jones

Hi Ian, Rosemary etc...

We have had a few meetings lately regarding the Fees element of the ACT, ie Should we make ladies pay the same as men.

We are starting to lean towards continuing to give a discount to ladies, on the basis that they are a minority group.

Has anyone else made decisions on this yet?

 As for Dress Code, we are going to discuss next week, but one of the areas in dispute is the allowing of ladies to have Tee shirts outside skirts or trousers, but men can't !!

 Interested in  any feedback.

Phil

Ian Cook

We have tried as a sub committe to give our members a clear understanding of the position from 1st October our first proposal to the club follows. I havent included our fees structure as we are still deliberating on how best to propose this and it will need to go to a members vote at the AGM or an EGM.

All clubs should be aware that there are likely to be people who will look to use "ambulance chaser, no win no fee solicitors" to make a quick buck. they will call in or request details on membership for themself and their wife. If you havent got an equality plan in place, and equality of fees, ensure that any membership documents that go out from friday include a quote to say that these figures may change with the introduction of equality fees at this club. 

The current Act was introduced as a Bill in April 2009 and has passed through both the Houses of Parliament and received Royal Assent in April 2010.  The main provisions will become operative from the 1^st October 2010 with the exception of the age provisions which have been deferred for a year.

It is essential that HGGC complies with this Bill.  Non-compliance can lead to a fine of up to £5,000 per person for those people complaining of discrimination.  The Legislation applies to members, guests, visitors and associates who play or visit HGGC.

Whilst there will be a period of grace as clubs implement the changes we will need to demonstrate that we are taking the appropriate actions.  It is our plan that we will implement the legislation with regard to “equal” membership rates for the start of next season’s membership.  We should immediately ensure we do not contravene the legislation for any other reasons.

There are 8 discriminatory characteristics that the Bill covers:-

a)    Sex

b)    Age (however the age related aspect of the Bill has been delayed and are likely to be introduced in April 2012)

c)     Disability

d)    Marriage & Civil Partnership

e)    Gender Reassignment

f)      Race

g)    Religion

h)    Sexual Orientation

The Bill raises a number of issues that need to be considered (whilst considering all discriminatory characteristics the prime ones we need to focus based on our current structures will undoubtedly be Sex and Age):-

a)    Membership profile – there can be no men’s and ladies’ membership – how do we re-structure?

b)    How do we re-structure the subscription fees to protect the Club’s income?

c)     What are the implications for competitions

d)    What are the implications for Officers of the Club (Captain, President & Council etc)

e)    What are the implications for the infra-structure of the Club

f)      We will need to produce an Equality Policy and should also have a defined complaints procedure should we be challenged

g)    How our Members Handbook needs to be amended to reflect the legislation.

h)    How our Articles of Association will need to be amended to reflect our Equalities policies and procedures

We have formed an Equalities Sub Committee with representatives from all sections of the club to consider the legislation, its implications to HGGC and to put forward options and recommendations to the membership.

Note : The Age related items in the Act have currently been deferred for at least 12 months whilst the government considers some of the implications in the implementation of the Act.

We have sought advice from the National Golf Clubs Advisory Association regarding the legislation and have also researched actions taken by other clubs to inform our decisions.

a)    HGGC can no longer specifically have separate men and ladies’ membership

b)    Single sex competitions are allowed on defined days

c)     We can/will continue to have men’s and ladies’ handicaps

d)    Juniors under 18 are exempt from the Bill

e)    It is possible to offer attractive rates/discounts to a category of members if they share a protected characteristic and if the purpose of the discount is to overcome or minimise this disadvantage e.g.  it should be acceptable to favour younger members with reduced fees if we had a low percentage of such members and wanted to support a membership drive. (Offering all ladies discounts is not acceptable under the rules.) 

f)      It may not be acceptable to give senior discounts (however age related part of the Bill has been delayed so will not applicable when the Bill is first introduced)

g)    It may be acceptable to give discounts for long service. need to consider impact of members who joined say as a junior at 12 and are now 32 and have 20 years of service.

h)    Criteria for election of Officers/Directors will need to be clearly defined and not be discriminatory based on the 8 characteristics.  It will be feasible under the legislation for Council members, the Club Captain and the Club president to be of either sex subject to clearly defined guidelines being put in place by the clubs.

i)       The Club must allow access to the club/course for all at the appropriate times

Has anyone else discovered anything more to assist other clubs get through this minefield. 

Phil Jones

Thanks for that Ian, very comprehensive.

 We have come to the same conclusions as yourself, but are just waiting on the Ladies Committee 'sounding out' their members to see if and how many may leave if they are forced to pay the same as men.

Our ladies pay £120 less than me n at present and we are worried that some may leave - taking husbands with them.

Do you think you will be having equal rates for men & women?

Phil 

John Flood

We are starting to lean towards continuing to give a discount to ladies, on the basis that they are a minority group.

I think you have to be careful with this as what sets out what is a 'minority'? Do ginger haired people deserve a discount, do people like me, lefties, deserve a discount as we are in the minority?

Things like this are a minefield. I don't envy the people who have to decide it.

Phil Jones

Totally Agree John - it is treading on dangerous ground and the only real way to be sure that we are legal is to have everyone pay the same.

 BUT - there seems to be a lot of disagreement between the EGU, who seem to think that WOmen can be seen as a minority group (NOT because they are women but because their 'section' has far fewer members) and others who say NO you cant do this.

Our worry is suddenly losing a lot of members.

 Anyone for a test case?

Phil

John Flood

Phil,

I agree, the flip side of it is that you may still end up still losing members if they feel discriminated by having to pay more fees & they seek clubs that offer a 1 price fits all.

David Lythgoe

I think this new Ruling has been over complicated.

It is for Memberships of Clubs. Golf as a game is not included.

If you take this too far it gets stupid. No Gents & Ladies Locker Rooms and Toilets????

TheLyth

Wayne Santorini

Phil Jones

Not sure how you can get to the stage of "No Gents & Ladies Locker Rooms and Toilets????" David.

The Bill just says that Men & Women have to have equal rights and facilities - if one has it - then the other must.

When it comes to competitions - they can still be separate as mens and ladies - this is quite clear in the Bill so no problems there, nor with separate Tees etc etc.

And Wayne - without wanting to sound pompous - can we keep this thread on the professional side of discussing the Bill itself.

 Phil

Wayne Santorini

It was a lighthearted reply to the way our legal system seems to want to complicate our lives Phil.

This is a minefield and I for one am glad I don't have to administer it.

Phil Jones

No problem Wayne, and yes I agree, this bill is going to cause chaos across the land.

John Flood

Karen Scott

I am new to Golfshake; and I am a lady golfer. I have a question - our ladies section committee placed a ban on the ladies using caddies in all our (ladies) competitions a few years ago. I am not entirely sure why. I recently challenged the ban and asked that caddies be reinstated because I believe this is discrimination under the Equality Act (and believe it was probably discrimination under the old discrimination act) bearing in mind that all the men in the club are able to use caddies.  I was successful at this stage and the committee removed the ban. However, they have recently reimposed the ban. They have issued a statement which reads as follows: 

On the basis that the ladies section are not subject to the law as laid out in the Equality Act, and that if rule (6-4) of the rules of golf was introduced it would not offend the provisions of the Act. On the basis that: a) single sex competitions are outside the scope of the act and b) the provision or otherwise of a caddie is not a protected characteristic within the meaning of the act, it is simply a matter of conditions of entry into a competition. If the competitions' committee responsible for ladies single sex competitions was a committee of the club responsible for setting competition rules for both men's and ladies' single sex competitions as opposed to a committee of the ladies section my advice would differ.

 I am not clear who the advice has come from.  

Ob viously, we are all members of the golf club and there are no sections as such, apart from juniors, but the 'ladies seciton committee' does run our competitions. 

Can anyone tell me if they are right and can enforce the ban or if it is illegal for them to do so and on what basis can I challenge the ban?

Karen 

Phil Jones

Evening karen

I have done a lot of research re the 'ACT' and from what you describe I would think that it is illegal to have different rules for ladies and gents re caddies.

As you rightly say, the Ladies 'section' is just a subset of the club, like we have at ours, and cannot set rules that discriminate in one of the 'protected characteristics' as per the act. I suppose though, thinking about it, if ALL of the ladies agreed then there wouldn't be a problem as it would be choice, but as soon as a single one disagrees then it becomes illegal.

Phil

Karen Scott

Sorry I rewrote my reply and posted the statement the committee has put up in our locker room. There are several ladies who want caddies. They are proposing to take it to our AGM for a vote. Most of the ladies aren't really bothered about having a caddie. But my point is if you don't want a caddie then don't have one, but don't vote to stop someone else having one if they want one!

Karen

David Lythgoe

Karen,

I feel that you are dealing with two different levels here. One is your Ladies Committee imposing a "Condition of Competition" that is included in the Rules of Golf (Appendix 1 - Part C - 3) and Two that under the new Act, all golfers (excluding juniors) should be treated equally.

In the past I have come across some strange Rules within the L.G.U.  For example on a busy 9hole Muni the Ladies insisted that they play a Medal in two balls because that is what the LGU said. This made their rounds slow (following fourballs) and stretched the Starting Times (12 ladies needing 6 times instead of 4). Mens Medals could be played in 4 balls.

My own personal view is that you should be able to have a Caddie if you wish, but I do see why Junior Golf does stop parents from acting as a caddie at times. A great way to get children involved in golf is to have them caddie for Mum\Dad, also gets them off the Computer and out in the fresh air.

TheLyth

Rosemary Boardman

To Ian Cook

On reading again your post of 29th Sept re criteria for electing members to the board of directors

will your club restrict 5 or 6 day members from proposing and seconding any member to the board

and will your club restrict 5 or 6 day members from being elected to the board.

ie is it only full paying 7 day members who have full rights

Ian Cook

hi Rosemary

We have voting rights for all members of the club, i dont think that you can discriminate against any section, and our articles have had to be changed to that effect.

We recently presented our equalities case to the panel of solicitors that are assisting golf clubs in the UK with equality issues and we are just waiting for a report from them, in writing, to confirm all the points that we felt needed to be changed or addressed. The articles were one of the main issues for us as this changes the dynamic and way forward for any club.

Brian Kydd

There should not be an EQUALITY rule, if you can swing a club and pay the fees TEE OFF. Simple, or am i missing something, if someone (male or female) is looking for an exception, pay more or  move on.

Phillip Cody

The Equality Act says you can have single sex competitions. Could you therefore have, say, Ladies competition on Thursdays and Mens on Saturdays, as it is now. These would have defined starting and finishing times say start 8am last tee off time 1pm.

Thanks

Phil Jones

Yes Philip - doing what you say is acceptable.

Ed Wilding

Hi Phil. I am involved at our Club (DInas Powys) in considering access to the course and the Equality Act. We have had some discussion about having separate competitions for men and women on separate days. If you implement that by having the ladies comp on a weekday and the mens comp on a weekend, I think there is a concern about indirect discrimination: you are discriminating against women who work full-time. I think that if separate comps were both on weekends at separate times or on separate days that might be acceptable. I have no legal expertise, but that is my understanding. My preference for our club (a view articulated elsewhere in these forums) is that we move initially to having club competition slots at designated times with parallel comps for men and for women. I think that your postings have emphasised it is important for clubs to recognise that there is no right answer to how one complies with the Act, that club circumstances will differ, and circumstances will guide decisions. For example, the size of our current membership (men and women combined) is such that running parallel comps on a Saturday is something we could do without running the risk of people not being able to get a tee-time. Clubs with larger memberships might think that a parallel comps approach would be less desirable.

John Trumble

Hi Phil

Is it correct that some clubs can give discounts to a under represented group, as a means of encouranging new members to that group. Such as the Ladies section. If this is correct can disabled members form a simular group to encourage more disabled members to join. And their is no end of Under represented groups which can be formed to get a discount. Is this some kind of a loop hole in the 2010 equality act.

Ian Cook

Think you might find yourself dissapointed if you think there are any loopholes in the act.

Offering discounts to the ladies or any section etc as a whole for an ongoing period is not acceptable to the act and could be challenged by males or other groups wanting to play for the same ampount of time each week, at a lower rate. its simple, If you have 2 different rates for same membership terms and playing periods then you could be accused of discriminating!

Yes, correct, you can specify a promotion to attract say ladies aged between 25 and 35 and offer them a discount for a specified period of time or until the % share of memberships reaches a targetted level, but that will cause internal hassle from other ladies that will want to pay the same reduced rates...you have been warned.

from our clubs experience 6 months on, we will be reassesing our decisions later this year as we feel that one 7 day level of membership is the simplest and most economical way forward.

we are having a number of new issues arising whereby sections in the club are arranging numerous free exchanges with other clubs, which are not being allowed in other sections due to course availability, so we now have seniors, wednesday, and ladies sections screaming discrimination!!!  the saturday mens section...the full paying 7 day members are also up in arms as they feel their access to the course is being reduced.

One final point that has opened up some heated discussions, is the fact that rightly if you are a 5 or 6 day member you should only be able to use the practice facilities at the club on the days of your membership, we have experienced 5 day members practicing on sat and sunday afternoons...and then popping out for just a couple of holes practice to finish with...not a full round they claim.

Our articles of association have been amended to include this so that if necessary we can implement the rules.

Fun inst it!!!

Darren Ramowski

How we try and bend the rules!  (we being society).  Ian wouldn't have believed this happened until I read your post.

One final point that has opened up some heated discussions, is the fact that rightly if you are a 5 or 6 day member you should only be able to use the practice facilities at the club on the days of your membership, we have experienced 5 day members practicing on sat and sunday afternoons...and then popping out for just a couple of holes practice to finish with...not a full round they claim.

Paul Melling

The world has gone bl**dy mad!!

Karen Scott

I am tearing my hair out. I have posted before about the ladies at our club not being allowed to use caddies. However, things are becoming progressively worss.....  a proposal was put to our Handicaps and Competitions Committee that some arrangements be made for ladies to be able to play medals on the weekends (we have a number of working ladies), this was voted against. We had our AGM last week and a new Captain took over, his first act in office was to announce that he will not allow the ladies to play in Captain's Day, although we have done so for the last five years. He has also suggested that he might also stop the ladies playing in the mixed fun competitions that are run throughout the year. I am beginning to wonder what century I am living in.  Our club continues to ignore the Equality Act, it seems they are just sitting tight and hoping that noone takes legal advice and they can just carry on regardless. Help!

Ian Cook

Karen

Cant believe they are burying their head.......its a potentially expensive decision to take.

You need to clarify is your current membership would allow you to play at these times as if you only have a 5 day membership, then rightly you should not be on the course on saturdays or sundays.

If you feel so upset about the situation and you are voicing for the other ladies, then i would suggest you all chip in £10 and have a solicitors letter issued to the club to warn them of their breach of laws and the £5000 per member claim that will be started against the club if they dont resolve the situation. a no win no fee legal group would i presume assist you and if you went this route i believe you would move equality on in golf glubs a lot faster as non can afford to pay out those sums. 

We are having different issues where the ladies who now have equality are pushing to sit in equal numbers on club committees and council and have parity in the choosing of future officials at the club, which is causing major problems as it must be remembered that with equality there are no lady or gentlemen members anymore, just gold, silver and bronzeplus memberships of any gender.

I have heard at many clubs that they are not taking equality seriously, as the ladies are quite happy with the way things are....one club i know had to raise its ladies fees from £250 to £1200 due to equality.

good luck and keep us posted

Darren Ramowski

I think Paul was right - The world has gone bl**dy mad!!

Karen it makes me wonder whether this approach with Captain's Day and other competitions is a tactical decision.  I'm not fully up to speed with the legality's of the equality act but I would guess if you have full membership then legally you can't be stopped playing on a particular day as this would be direct discrimintion.  However I'm not sure how the competitions would work I would imagine like with other sports you can still have male only competitions.

I guess until someone takes the legal court approach it's difficult to know until precedents are set.

Good website worthwhile checking out: http://www.levelplayingfield.org.uk

Karen Scott

Ian

Thanks for that. All our members are 7 day full paying members and have been for a considerable length of time, we have no membership categories except juniors, so there are no issues involving different scales of membership fee. It states in our Articles of Association and Rules that we are all equal! I do understand that some ladies are upset with the hike in fees but I think it is worth it to have equal (hah!) opportunity to play golf, and after all that is all we are talking about, the same opportunity to play a game! Some clubs may be happy to continue with the status quo but those ladies who are happy with that, must also consider what it means to those ladies who are not happy with it. I think I will look into the legalities of it as you suggested.  

Karen

Karen Scott

Darren

Men only competitions are of course allowed, as are ladies only competitions, simply because we shouldn't have to compete against a man based on physical strength, etc. On Captain's Day what normally happened was the ladies and juniors played a separate competiton from the men on the day, but you could play with your husband/wife/mother/father if you wanted, or you could go out with just men or just women. That is what  would happen if the ladies could play a medal on the weekend, you could go out with your husband or wife, but you would play a separate competition. But the point is in the mixed competitons, is that you didn't have to play with a woman if you didn't want to, or a man if you didn't want to, but the opportunity was there if you did want to play with a man or a woman, they are just mixed , so we all had an opportunity to play. So I don't understand why the Captain has decided to do this simply because you don't have to play with the opposite sex if you don't want to! It's utter madness.

Karen

Ian Cook

Intersting that you are all 7 day members, so have equal rights of access to the course.

How much trouble would it cause if the ladies decide to hold some sort of comp on the same day and officially request 2/3 hours of tee times mid morning or through the day for the ladies. you need to have full support from the whole section to support this otherwise you will all look foolish. ....a letter of refusal is a serious problem, as that shows a breach of equality...they have to let you have some access to the course, not necessarily the comps.

good luck, hope you are not a young gun fighting a one person battle here, get some of the other ladies with official positions to put their heads above the parapit with you.

Karen Scott

My husband suggested we enter Captain's Day anyway! They couldn't exactly throw us off the course, could they? There are a few ladies who feel the same as I do, but most just want to play on a Tuesday and so aren't worried about playing on other days. However, the Captain's Day thing has shaken them up a bit, because the majority of ladies have been playing in it with their husbands. So perhaps when it affects them directly they may be more  proactive. Will keep you posted!

Karen

John Flood

I was talking to some members of a well respected club & they were telling me that women are now allowed to play on the course at the weekends & enter medals etc BUT in their own words "We make sure they feel as uncomfortable as possible"!!!!

Darren Ramowski

Yes which makes you wonder regarding the new Captain's change at this club.

Certainly don't sound like clubs I would want to play at.

David Lythgoe

Karen,

" He has also suggested that he might also stop the ladies playing in the mixed fun competitions that are run throughout the year" 

I may be crazy but how can a MIXED Event not include Ladies? Playing with the girls in a 'Mixed Gruesome' can be more fun than playing in normal Comps.

A Captain can decide that he will not have a 'Ladies' or 'Junior' prize during his day, and because the course is closed for Captains Day (many are) these Sections can't gain access to it.

Good luck with your fight.

TheLyth

Ian Cook

Looking for some more feedback on another equality issue....

With all the changes that are currently occurring in clubs with regard to equality, many of which are causing a lot of ripples around the senior traditionalists....lets just call them that!!! someone in the heat of a discussion said "if you dont like it...why not go on your own as a ladies club?"  it got a laugh, but then i started thinking about it......

exactly how difficult would it be to initiate this sort of golf club model?

Our ladies have a lounge in a seperate building with changing rooms that could easily become a ladies clubhouse.

they would create their own business and find directors etc to create all the clubs official positions.

They could create their own set of rules and articles.

They would have a unique marketing vehicle for ladies locally that dont like the way things are being run at their own club.

The ladies club would pay an agreed proportion of all costs for the course and necessary office admin, the bar and catering facilities could be used by all. and use of the course would have to be mutually agreed

In its simplest terms is it something that could be sustained?

My question is - has any other club sat down and looked if this is a realistic option and what notes or ideas did you come up with,

Any private notes or discussion documents that anyone could send me, would be kept confidential, so that perhaps a small number of influenctial members can have a quiet discussion away from the club to see if this might work and how it could be proposed.

Having seperate gender clubs totally removes any need for equality issues.

Darren Ramowski

Ian, not related to equality but potentially another can of worms.

There is a guy on comes on the forums sometime who used to be a member of a club in I think Milton Keynes.

The course had 2 clubs attached to it as well as allowing pay and play.  I think both clubs were mixed.

I don't know the exact details but with 2 clubs having some form of control and running of the course it ended up being to much hassle, the course busy and ultimately one of the clubs being kicked out.

David Lythgoe

Ian,

What status is the other 9 holes at Royal Lytham, isn't that the 'Ladies Course'?

In Scotland many Courses have several 'Clubs' attached to them.

TheLyth

Brian Kydd

Hi all not been on for a while , and then today bombarded with emails about the equality act. In aggrement with an earlier response, THE (GOLF) WORLD HAS GONE MAD. I lived in Surrey seems like a lifetime ago and now and again had a few practice rounds with Laura Davies. There was no equality there me off 1, got properly thrashed every time.  Calm down all!  and if you have a legal prob: or query about the act. GOOGLE it. I am sure everyone at any club will also be amazed how much info is out there. Good luck at your next  agm or ! EGM!  most likely if your clb has not addressed this issue, happy golfing Brian

Brian Kydd

Hi all not been on for a while , and then today bombarded with emails about the equality act. In aggrement with an earlier response, THE (GOLF) WORLD HAS GONE MAD. I lived in Surrey seems like a lifetime ago and now and again had a few practice rounds with Laura Davies. There was no equality there me off 1, got properly thrashed every time.  Calm down all!  and if you have a legal prob: or query about the act. GOOGLE it. I am sure everyone at any club will also be amazed how much info is out there. Good luck at your next  agm or ! EGM!  most likely if your clb has not addressed this issue, happy golfing Brian

James Carr

I am chairman at Newcastle United Golf club, and find your forum very interesting and informative, we have at our club the same problem as your self’s, in that explaining the act is very difficult, people tend to read guidance notes only however these need to be read in conjunction with the act.

I was interested to read the problem Karen Scott had experienced at her club, people need to be made aware that there are penalties for instructing-causing or inducing contravention of the act, please see section 111 below.

Karen

I hope this helps with prompting a successful resolution to your problem

James

Section 111: Instructing, causing or inducing contraventions

Effect

363.This section makes it unlawful for a person to instruct, cause or induce someone to discriminate against, harass or victimise another person, or to attempt to do so.

364.It provides a remedy for both the recipient of the instruction and the intended victim, whether or not the instruction is carried out, provided the recipient or intended victim suffers a detriment as a result.

365.However, the section only applies where the person giving the instruction is in a relationship with the recipient of the instruction in which discrimination, harassment or victimisation is prohibited.

366.The Equality and Human Rights Commission can enforce this section using its statutory powers under the Equality Act 2006. Equally, both the recipient of the instruction and the intended victim can bring individual claims for breach of this section against the person giving the instructions, so long as they have suffered a detriment as a result. A claim brought by the recipient of the instruction will be dealt with in the same forum (employment tribunal or county courts) as a direct claim for discrimination, harassment or victimisation against the person giving the instruction would be. A claim brought by the intended victim against the person giving the instruction will be dealt with in the same forum as a claim for discrimination, harassment or victimisation against the person carrying out the instruction would be.

Background

367.This section replaces provisions in previous legislation in relation to race, sex, gender reassignment, pregnancy and maternity, age (within the workplace) disability (within the workplace), religion or belief (outside the workplace) and sexual orientation (outside the workplace). It extends protection to all protected characteristics in all areas covered by the Act and allows the Equality and Human Rights Commission to bring enforcement proceedings in relation to any action in breach of the section. (Previously, the Equality and Human Rights Commission’s enforcement powers were not uniform even between the protected characteristics and fields where there were provisions on instructions to discriminate.) The provision expressly allowing persons instructed to bring proceedings is new (other than in relation to age within the workplace where such provision already exists), and is designed to codify the current position in common law (see Weathersfield v Sargent [1999] IRLR 94). The provision expressly allowing the intended victim to bring proceedings, even where the instruction is not carried out, is also new and is designed to ensure greater clarity about the protection than under previous legislation.

Example

• A GP instructs his receptionist not to register anyone with an Asian name. The receptionist would have a claim against the GP if subjected to a detriment for not doing so. A potential patient would also have a claim against the GP if she discovered the instruction had been given and was put off applying to register. The receptionist’s claim against the GP would be brought before the employment tribunal as it relates to employment, while the potential patient’s claim would be brought in the county court as it relates to services.

Section 112: Aiding contraventions

Effect

368.This section makes it unlawful for a person to help someone carry out an act which he or she knows is unlawful under the Act. However, this is not unlawful if the person giving assistance has been told that the act is lawful and he or she reasonably believes this to be true.

369.It makes it an offence, punishable by a fine of (currently) up to £5,000, knowingly or recklessly to make a false statement about the lawfulness of doing something under the Act.

370.For the purposes of enforcement, breaches of the prohibition on aiding contraventions are dealt with under the same procedures in the Act as the contraventions themselves.

Background

371.This section is designed to replicate the effect of similar provisions in previous legislation. It ensures that a person who helps another to do something which he or she knows to be prohibited by the Act is liable in his or her own right. Taken together with the provisions on “Liability of employers and principals” (section 109), “Liability of employees and agents” (section 110) and “Instructing, causing or inducing contraventions” (section 111) this section is designed to ensure that both the person carrying out an unlawful act and any person on whose behalf or with whose help he or she was acting can be held to account where appropriate.

Example

• On finding out that a new tenant is gay, a landlord discriminates against him by refusing him access to certain facilities, claiming that they are not part of the tenancy agreement. Another tenant knows this to be false but joins in with the landlord in refusing the new tenant access to the facilities in question. The new tenant can bring a discrimination claim against both the landlord and the tenant who helped him.

Darren Ramowski

This may help, the 'Golf Club Management Publication from the GCMA (Golf Club Managers Association)' have a few relevant articles:

http://www.golfclubmanagement.net/tag/equality-act/

Michael Shaw: An introduction to the Equality Act

Brian Butler: An overview of the Equality Act

Adrian Houstoun: How the Equality Act affects how you employ staff