Forum > Rules and Etiquette

Darren Millichip

going on from some previous posts,

which rules should now be updated/removed?

which rules do you agree with/disagree with?

which rules just spout b****x when a simple answer is all thats needed?

Darren Millichip

I shall start

obviously i hate the rule "penalty for removing leaves from bunkers"!!!!

i know some courses have it as a local rule similar to removing stones but i think it should be mandatory on all courses

p.s dave ley, i now have an industial leaf blower that way i wont be touching the leaves

Adrian Hope

Dave ley

As I've touched on this I would like a rule for free relief from a divot, I have on occassions had to play from deeper divots in the middle of the fairway than some claim relief from animal scrappings ,and there usual in the rough and under trees.

Also  a chunk of mud on the ball and having to play it until you reach the green before cleaning.

Daz, I played a course the other day called Tredegar  & Rhymney it would be ideal for you as they have no bunkers. Funilly enough they have no trees either

Gary Hand

The putter one is a bit silly but as it is only a penalty if the wind moves the ball after address then there is a way around it. From what I am told if you don't ground your putter it is not classed as an address therefore if the ball moves you can replace without penalty. I may be way off withthis so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Lewis Gladstone-buchanan

Gary,

That's how I understand it....I was playing in a comp a month or so ago and one of my partners told me not to ground the putter if it is windy in that part of the course (it was a VERY windy day).....on some holes my ball moved more than 5 inches because of the wind

Dave ley

Lewis Gladstone-buchanan

Yes Dave....that's how I understand it - It was just that 'addressing' in this regard I was told was if you have grounded the putter head.

 So if I'm standing over the ball (without grounding) and the ball moves, I just play from where it stops. If i had grounded the putter there would be a penalty.

If it goes in the water....that's just really unlucky!......and way to windy to play golf!

Loud Mouth b.a.

Remove all golfers' reliefs bar caddies, marking balls on the green,  and hand warmers:

Remove handicaps, reliefs on the course, buggies, umbrellas, computer gismos for calculating distances etc.

Make golfers face the elements and competition like real men, not propped up nancies.

If one can't face a bush, a dry leaf, wet or uneven territory, a rain shower, or a bit of equal competition,  then maybe stay at home and play 'golf' on one's computer. One will then always 'win.'

Life too tough on the cruel golf course - play stroke and distance. Don't constantly expect to play off a velvet mat.

Relief should be confined to a tree when chased by a tiger.

Dave ley

Lewis , exactly if you haven't ground your club you haven't addressed it. That applies to all shots.

as for been blown into water that has happened and the rules official gave a wrong ruling and allowed the player to replace the ball on the green. As the ruling  was given by the offical no penalty was awarded later when quetioned,

Ivan, extreme ,but would struggle to disagree with you.

Colin Stephens

removing the ball from the hole prior to removing the flag - why ???????

if you don't it's a two shot penalty - an absolutely stupid rule because what

difference does it make ? 

Loud Mouth b.a.

Dave,

Golf started off as being a fun easy to understand game.

Then as the moral fibre of mankind weakened golfers began to think:

"Mmmmm I'm not getting a fair shake here. A leaf has blown next to my ball. The same thing has not happened to Fred. That's not fair! I MUST win!!! I need RELIEF!!!!"

To win is a fabulous dream. Competition a wonderful pursuit. Man facing man, toe to toe, in fair equal competition.

Sadly, nowadays in many sports participants seek hollow victories. I like to win, but not if it means wearing a skirt.

That's why  for me our beautiful game involves me playing alone at dawn - facing leaves, stones, rain, dangerous woodpeckers, and all manner of other hazards.

Hazards  which if  a man of average fiber had to face he would cry "Relief. I need RELIEF!" "And gimmee a few shots head start too!!!!"

Tim Hawkins

I think you've got some good points there Ivan.  I think that the general rule should be play it where it lies apart from where it may cause damage to the course - young staked trees and the like - but not where the only penalty is damage to your equipment.  If you're scared of taking a dent out of a club because it's on a cart path then you decide to take a penalty to move it not get it automatically.  This should also apply to greens, no picking and cleaning - if you're ball is interfering with the line of another player then it can be moved sideways but that's it.  In effect the ball is in play when you tee off until it drops in the hole with a penalty if it's touched other than those few exceptions.

Definitely agree with electrical gizmos too, no distance help apart from the club's officially produced course planner - I refute the often proposed argument that a GPS is just an electronic version of a yardage book, it is not.

Dave ley

To true Ivan , I had a guy in a team match who's ball was under a bush along side the cart path.He stood on the a path stretched his arms out and leaned over as far as he could with a driver and addressed the ball. He had no back swing as another branch was in the way and asked for relief for standing on the path ,If I had blown on him he would have fallen over.I asked him if he was taking the P#ss. He then took a drop under penalty. Might have gotten away with that with someone eles.

I do believe you should get relief from dangerous woodies though Ivan!

David Lythgoe

The Rules (13 to begin with) were put there to aid a FAIR GAME, making it the same for everyone. Then Lawyers got hold of them and closed 'loop-holes', questions were asked and THE DECISION were started.

Would it be fair if Fred, playing in the first group was able to play from a dry fairway, where Jim, playing in the last group found his ball in a foot of water left by a rainstorm. Both balls in the same location?

Answer. NO, so The Casual Water Ruling.

Today a number of DEFINITIONS are missing, so even the Rules Buffs find it hard to come to a definitive answer.

There is no Definition for,

What is a Club-length?

What actually is 'Grounding' during Address?

What needs to be known to be 'Known or vitually certain'?

Each Referee has a guideline for these but no definate answer.

TheLyth

Loud Mouth b.a.

David,

My answer is, in my humble (very very humble of course) opinion is an emphatic "YES!" it would be totally fair.

The essence of my (perhaps radical) viewpoint is that one should take a course as one finds it - good and bad. Occasionally one will have good breaks, other times bad.

To  try to put two players on identical terms defeats the essence of nature itself. Nature varies - every square centimeter. That is one of its beauties, one of its joys.

I am suggesting that we embrace nature into our wonderful sport, and not forever keep attempting to turn it upsidedown in our endless striving for 'victory.'

True victory is being at one with our surrounds, and not constantly obecting to it and making out that it has cheated us in some way.

Maybe I will start a new group 'The Dawn Society' for players wishing to play alongside nature, willing to enjoy winning or losing on equal terms, and occasionally being man enough to leave a few drops of their own blood out there.

And for haemophiliacs there is of course......yes you guessed. ........stroke and distance.   

John Flood

Tim,

Definitely agree with electrical gizmos too, no distance help apart from the club's officially produced course planner - I refute the often proposed argument that a GPS is just an electronic version of a yardage book, it is not.

 Your reasons being?

Christopher Watmore

Certainly agree with Dave Ley when it comes to Divots, you should be able to lift and place relief from a divot. Its effectively ground under repair really, so to keep making golfers play from it is unfair.

I also think certain times when conditions on courses get bed, especially if its wet, there should be an option to clean mud off your ball on mown areas through the green. Again nothing worse then striking one down the centre of the fairway and picking up a load of mud which is going to have negative effects on your next shot.

I also think when in the rough, if a ball plugs in it's own pitchmark, you should be entitled to lift and drop. Anywhere else you can lift, clean and place. Yet in the rough your completely screwed.

I also think its time there was some rule to prevent a situation I encounter all too often in competitions. You hit a shot on a blind hole or you encroach onto another hole if you've hit one a bit wide. You and your playing partners all have a good fix on it. Yet when you get down to it you either don't find it or find another ball entirely. You look round and can see another group mooching off and you soon realise they have either picked up the ball or have played the wrong ball. Now in your group you all agree on whats happened but sadly the rules don't allow for anything other then going back to the tee or point of previous shot, taking a shot penalty and having to play again. This I don't think is fair.

Chris Perry

Christopher Watmore

David Lythgoe

To Colin Stephens,

"removing the ball from the hole prior to removing the flag - why ???????

if you don't it's a two shot penalty - an absolutely stupid rule because what

difference does it make ?"

Which Rule are you thinking of? Once a Ball is holed  (at rest within the circumference of the hole and ALL OF IT IS BELOW the level of the lip of the hole) the hole is finished. Are you thinking of the Rule that is a penalty when you lift out the Flagstick with the Ball resting against it but not below the lip?

TheLyth

Darren Millichip

Lyth

I think he is referring to the putting and holing out whilst the flagstick is still in

Christopher Watmore

Think Colin if refering to the Rule David that its a 2 shot penatly to hole out on the putting surface with the flag still in the hole. He wonders what difference it makes.

Well pretty sure a flag can decided whether a ball thats travelling at pace goes in or not.

David Lythgoe

Yes, you can hit the Flag and finishes inches away when if the Flag was not in the hole you would be 60ft away. That is the reason its a penalty.

I think that Colin was/is referring to the practice of pulling the Flagstick and Ball out of the hole in the same movement. Some people say that because the Ball is not 'at rest' in the bottom of the hole then it is not 'HOLED' in that situation.

TheLyth

Tim Hawkins

Floody

a course book lays out standard distances from set tee points, so it's possible for a par 3 to vary 20 or 30 yards depending where the pots are placed on a given day.  The standard lengths are usually set firmly in the tee box so you know theoretical distance give or take what you estimate to the centre of the green and you should go with what you think is the right shot.  So what is the point of using a GPS to obtain that distance when you are already working out wind factors, altitude and position of the pin in your head anyway?  It's not the objection about whether or not it effects speed of play, it's just that it takes away one of the fundamental variables of the game.

Loud Mouth b.a.

How were holes traditionally measured on golf courses?

Let me cite an example.

A couple of years ago I played in a V.G.S. event on a hole where I took out my driver. My hole distance must have been a full 50 yards longer than I had actually driven! I could not help but wonder if the hole had been measured along the ground down into the mini-valley, and then along the ground up the other side. Instead of over the mini-valley where everyones' balls had flown.

And, how about on a dog-leg  where it is possible to drive over the corner? Is the measurement taken by the longest route running mid-fairway?

Dave ley

Loud Mouth b.a.

Dave,

That explains some of the pained expressions I have witnessed from golfers entering their first Longdrive event.

I recall my days as a boy golfer at Erewash Valley where some of the fairways were very wavey. I suspected that in earlier days the land owner had made the land that way in order to artifically create larger acreages for his crops.

Whatever the reason, it makes a nonsense of hole yardages, except where the ground is flat and level.

Have any course yardages been adjusted since electronic straight line measuring gismos came out?

Dave ley

David Lythgoe

Today, courses are measured using Lasers but still through the axis of any dog-legs. The length is then measured from the Measuring Post to the centre of the Green.

This is why some people can't get their Yardage right.

Hole 145yds, Tee 12ft in front of MP, Pin 12ft onto a 50yds long Green. Tee to Hole = 120yds.

Same hole, Tee level with MP, Pin 12ft from back of Green. Tee to Hole = 166yds. 

In days gone by, they used Chains and the measurement was from 6ft off the very back of the Tee to the centre of the Green. Over the years they tried to get courses to build Tees the same length as the Greens and so when measured Centre to Centre the hole could be played at the same length all the time.

TheLyth

Loud Mouth b.a.

Dave,

So what is possibly happening at the moment is that a golfer say faces a '400 yards' par 4 hole.

He possibly thinks:

I am best from 100 yards outs from the pin so I'll drive 300 yards and then attack the flag with my favourite wedge.

What has happened in reality is that undulating ground has caused a mis-measurement of say 15% of the total hole distance, so the hole is not really 400 yards but 340 yards.

He goes on to drive 300 yards and then finds himself facing a 40 yards flop shot.

"Hmm" he thinks,  "I hit that drive better than I thought - it's finished at 360!"

"My GPS confirms that I am truly only 40 yards out."

"I screwed up, but no-one can budget for the occasional monster drive!"

How far from reality is this scenario?  It sounds quite possible on the facts presented to me to date.   

ADDENDUM 1:

Now seen David's post (above). Have the hole yardages on ALL courses now been corrected with lasers?

If so, all courses will now be significantly shorter. (Not joking).

ADDENDUM 2:

This laser yardages exposure (if honestly addressed by golf clubs) must have presumably be embarrassing?  (Have now read David's post below). Did any of our members notice their course yardage shrink on their score card in the 1980s? Was such hushed up?

David Lythgoe

Most courses had themselves measured in the 80's by Laser and awarded a Certificate that stated that the course was a 'Measured Course' for Handicap purposes.

There will be few, if any, not measured this way.

TheLyth

Loud Mouth b.a.

Christopher Watmore

Watched the EGU re-measure my course last year and re-rate it. They use laser surveying equipment now as opposed to the wheel method. However the basic principle is the same. They measure to certain points using a system derived from what their 'Theoretical Scratch Golfer' would do. So on most Par 4/5 holes the 1st thing they measured was a distance of 260 yards from the tee, which which is what they deem a typical scratch golfers driving distance, then they assess where they are in relation to green, doglegs etc and if need be make more measurements. Of course it shows you how the game has changed because when we was done 15 years ago the average scratch golfer drive was about 220 yards, that made quite an impact on our course rating. Now with modern technology and developments the extra 40 yards the scratch golfer now gains meant our course is apparently much easier hence now why we have a low Standard Scratch despite adding nearly 300 yards in length over the last 15 years.

As for the discussion saying people should have to use course markers rather then GPS. What tosh. Most courses I play have inaccurate markers because they are never checked. Its nice having markers telling you how far it is to the front of the greens or middle of the greens but what occurs when the markers move or heaven forbid over a period of time the greenstaff allow the edges of the green to move and therefore the distances become inaccruate? Also having played the game with and without GPS I'd sooner have my Skycaddie then buy a Course Planner which can be out of date and spend ages trying to work out to which tree on a particular hole or which mound a distance is taken from. Also by the time you've paced between markers and balls, got your pythagoras out and worked out what you're angle to the green does to effect distance you've just obtained, then spent a few moments working out what club that is.

With GPS you have the yardage from where you are standing to the green the second you look at the screen. You can then usually work out within another second or so whether the wind, elevation etc is with or against you and thus make the club selection quite quickly.

Certainly when I've done experiments of playing in a group with GPS and the same group without GPS or Laser Devices, the speed and pace of play is so much quicker with the electronic devices being used then having to try to work out distances from markers or course planners. I think the rule should be passed that everyone playing the game should have either a GPS or Laser to speed up play.

John Pettitt

I can play this game faster than anyone who uses all these aids.

Secondly, when watching the pros play a tournament I seem to see a lot of discussion taking place between caddie and player, consultation of notes and sometimes pacing out from one point to another.

After all this has taken place they then proceed to select the club based on all this information and then dump it 30 yards through the green. So it ia a load of old tosh.

Learn to play this game with your eyes and a feel for distance, it is far more rewarding and certainly just as accurate.

One of my regular playing partners wants to know the exaxt yardage for anything under a 100 yards, yet when he knows it he still has not got a clue how to get it close.

Loud Mouth b.a.

Interesting views by both Christopher and John.

I personally believe that there is another facet to the GPS issue, namely that GPS removes one essential skill from a golfer's armoury namely the necessity to calculate distance.

I do not know how accurate such can be done from cards, yardage markers etc. I am fortunate to be able to work out distance from little more than a glance.

Possibly I see this issue differently to most golfers but when I played seriously I was always proud of such ability and regarded it as being an essential golf skill.

Emotionally for me GPS has somehow cheapened the game. Possibly nonsense, but nevertheless how I feel. 

John Pettitt

Ivan, the problem may well be that the modern breed cannot relate to exactly what a yard is as they have been metrificated (Good word Eh!!).

No matter how well one knows the distances that one hits a certain club it is unlikely that the one is faced with that exact yardage in actual play, so either some has to be taken off or a little put on to produce the desired result. Then of course the speed and direction of the wind will throw another spanner into the works of the GPS, as this little electronic device just does not understand the elements.

I am with Ivan on this, I don't need a GPS or a course plotter to get me round a course, never have and never will.

Loud Mouth b.a.

John,

As you know I am a student of language in all of its settings.

I cannot help but notice that in several threads you have used words such as 'nonsense,' 'tosh,' and now 'metrificated.'

I am not quite sure what to make of it, knowing you as I do. Do you have a secret polite Eton background, which at last cannot be reigned in?    

John Pettitt

Stop making me laugh, Ivan. I do realise your capabilities in the writing field and I have never claimed to be a writer myself and I just thought it would be OK to invent a word.

Those who know me tend to just ignore me, those that don't will just have to learn a bit quicker.

Dave ley

Tim Hawkins

True up to a point John, but I'm just as comfortable estimating in yards or metres, after all it's only 10% different - the advantage of having to use both systems when the UK officially went metric (or rather SI) between '65 and '71.  I use both and use whichever is convenient.

The point was Chris, and that was pretty definite in my earlier post, that it was nothing to do with the speed of play argument.  It was about playing the conditions in front of you.  Can you honestly admit that if you're faced with a shot of 130 yards you will always use the same club and hit it that distance?  What if there's a cross-wind or head-wind?  What if it's uphill or downhill, or the greens are hard, or it's hot or cold?  What if it's 133 yards.  The truth of it is that you're brain does that for you and the more you train it to estimate distance (which it does pretty accurately anyway) the less you need to rely on artificial aids.  My own personal view is that take something away from the game, but I won't ever disapprove of anyone using one and have even been known to get yardages from them from a user on a completely new course - but I'm just as comfortable not to. 

Dave ley

John Flood

Tim,

what ever floats one's boat really. I have mined switched on when playing my home course but only use it as a reference if ever I stray off line. When playing away courses it gives me a starting point to then use the old noggin to take all other factors into consideration.

Loud Mouth b.a.

Technology insidiously creeps more and more into golf and before one knows what has happened clubs hit further, holes thereby get shorter, clubs become easier to play, and distances are automatically measured.

No-one ever seems to appreciate that the latest development is never the end of the line. No-one is ever prepared for the next technological development which is usually adopted.

The next stage will likely be a mini golf computer measuring stick which one holds aloft for a few seconds. It will advise on air temperature, wind direction, humidity etc.

There will then follow an on-screen recommendation as to which club to play and how to play it based on one's pre-programmed data. 

When will enough be enough?  Need a robot to play the shot too?

Dave Patrick

As we are told on the telly every week the pros love greenside bunkers. Up and down 70% of the time. I too dont like getting to a bunker and seeing my ball in some tits size 10 footjoy print. Why not have these sandy hazards treaded as hazards and do not rake them at all. If you see your ball go in it you think Oh flip! and expect the worst. and know what to expect. The green keeper can rake it every morning before start of play.

Dave CAC handed Geordie.

John Flood

Sanders,

you mean you aren't aware of those devices already, believe me they exist!

Tim Hawkins

Russell Middleton

Nothing good about getting your ball on the fairway only to find it in a divot.  Simple thing, pick and place, no penalty!

Mud on the ball.  Mark the ball, then clean it and replace it.

Ball in a footprint in a bunker.  lift the ball and rake the bunker, then you playing partner can place the ball in it's original position.  Bunkers should be raked!

Never, ever beating your host on his own course, something that was totally ignored during the SE Qualifier! 

I'll think of a few more along the way!

Russ

Chris Perry

"I think the rule should be passed that everyone playing the game should have either a GPS or Laser to speed up play."

That's a ridiculaous statement.  When it's possible to get a complete set up, including shoes and balls, for around £100, why on earth should should there be a requirement to own a £200 device?  You need to think before you post Christopher.

Christopher Watmore

Chris, in a lot of EGU Amateur Events all competitors are given a Skycaddie to use during their round. At my club we have GPS you can hire for the round. What I meant to say was that certainly in competitions people should be given GPS to use to speed up play. You can't justify people going out and spending money on a GPS although I would argue that doing that so they can learn exactly how far they hit the ball with each club in their bag would be a greater investment then keep spending £300 every six months on th latest must have driver that promises to deliver more distance and straighter drives.

I don't agree with Sanders that GPS takes away decision making. It only gives you the starting point and eliminate the need to check course planners, search for markers and pace out yardages. With the information it gives you still have to assess and factor in the elements such as Wind Speed and Direction, Temperature, Elevation Change, Lie of the Ball etc. All GPS does is get you to this point quicker. Nothing worse for me then playing with someone who takes several minutes pacing out yardages, then spends another age checking the wind, throwing grass in the air, then looking at the ball.

A Typical example of what I do: Walk to my ball, check GPS, it says I have 170 to the back of the green. Okay so with my yardages I know thats a 5 iron. Check the lie of the ball, its sitting well. Now check the wind, its a little bit into me, now elevation, greens a little bit above me. Okay so now I'm taking 4 Iron or Hybrid. A quick practice swing and strike the ball. If I hit it well its at the back of the green. If I mishit it slightly or I've misjudged the wind and elevation its going to finish nearer the centre of the green maybe the front. Important thing is I'm on the green. All that has taken me about 30 seconds to do.

Loud Mouth b.a.

I was speaking with an American golfer a couple of days ago. He informed me that most of his local golf clubs have GPS fitted to their buggies.

The buggies are NOT fitted with satellite tv. I am unsure about chilled drinks' machines as I forgot to ask.

Christopher Watmore

David Lythgoe

I don't use GPS, does it work on every Golf Course out there?

TheLyth

John Pettitt

Christopher Watmore

Yeah David, GPS works on most courses. Just look at a Company like Skycaddie who have mapped a huge library of course on foot, their current SGX Model comes preloaded with 30,000 courses in it. If by some fluke your course isn't mapped you can request it to be done free, Skycaddie then contact the club and arrange for their mapper to go and walk round the course measuring everything. In the meantime the devices allow you to map basic info for the courses yourself.

Great thing about them I like is if you go to an empty field or practice range, you can hit balls and mark the spot where you've hit from, then walk out to the balls and check your yardages. Great way to keep up-to-date with your yardages and help your course management when you're playing.

Christopher Watmore

Thing is John 8 minutes a hole on a Par 4 for a Fourball isn't bad going, especially when we're walking the course as well. Most groups I see out there take anywhere from 12-18 minutes a hole. We could sprint round in a Buggy, but thats no fun, walkings part of the game and the exercise.

In practice I probably don't take anywhere near 30 seconds even, I lose the practice swing from the routine in practice rounds, don't see the point. I don't worry too much about elevation change either. With my method of picking the distance to the back of the green, if I come up short because I've misjudged wind or what have you, its only working better for me. Also being an Amateur who can't say I strike the ball perfectly everytime, there isn't a likelyhood that I'll hit the ball long of the green either. Too many people maybe try to get to specific with GPS and Lasers and are trying to go for the Flag the whole time. I use course management and if I can find the green in regulation, thats good enough for me. I'd happily two putt eveytime then.

John Pettitt

I only wish one could sprint round in a buggy, but I have always felt that using my buggy does not give me the right to push through every group in front. I also have playing partners as I never play on my own, so my buggy is irrelevant in the general scheme of things. Where it is useful is that I can zip ahead and find my partners balls that may be in a bad spot.

Having said that it is  a well known fact that over the years the game has become slower, probably brought on by watching the Pro's on TV. One of my gang is 19 handicap and he looks both sides of the hole on every putt, this takes an age as one can appreciate but adds nothing to his putting skills.

Because I fly the ball fairly low I find that I do not take on the longer second shots to greens guarded by bunkers, but once inside 140 yards, I take the pin on all the time.

Colin Stephens

I was told it was a two shot penalty if you removed the flag before the ball - The Lythe has now corrected me - I do see the significance of ensuring the ball drops to the bottom of the cup , that's fine and no I was not talking about putting with the flag still in

I can now gleefully tell my friend who told me this that he's wrong (if the ball has dropped to the bottom of the cup - then it's ok and it doesn't matter which you remove first !)