Forum > Technique, Tips & Tuition

Johan Lund

Hi!

I am looking around at a few different sites to see if anyone can help me with this weird mental thing in my head.
The issue is that when I swing without a ball in front of me, I do an "ok"ish swing (I have a very high hcp), but as soon as there is a ball in front of me I revert to another swing.
I can make 10-15 "correct" swings while just practicing... but if I imagine there is a ball, or there actually is one... I do something weird when I try to hit it. My club goes around my back, instead of above my shoulders, and I often hit a very strong hook.

I have a video link here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1_6ODHlyXc

I am very thankful for any tips and ideas you might have for me. What I do wrong, how I should think and how to practice.

Thank you!

/Johan

Loud Mouth b.a.

Johan,

What a terrible predicament. I know from my Swedish friends that all players who cannot make at least a 5 handicap are forced to take up javelin throwing, and if unsuccessful at both then all posters of Emma Sjoberg are confiscated. So let's get you fixed before you encounter trouble with your national sports association. We have an emergency situation.

I agree that the mental thing is indeed in your head, so we have a good starting point. If it were in your back then alas I could not help.

What you describe is an extremely common problem, and is quite easy to solve.

Here is the fix:

1. Clearly pick your target and visualise your ball flight.

2. Take your practice swing and when doing so concentrate on the club's arc and a very good follow through.

3.  When you address the ball take a deep breath in and relax.

4.  You are not now going to hit the ball, but instead repeat a perfect swing arc and the ball will just happen to get in the way.

5.  When you swing, swing at only 80-90% effort and really show off your follow through finishing with a nice pose.   

If it does not work then I will introduce you to a top Swedish javelin coach. I promise.

Johan Lund

Hahaha, that is probably the greatest reply I have seen in a very long time, regarding alot of different topics!

 I try to not think about the ball and take it nice and slow. But the problem is, I can see it! My friends who filmed me yesterday told me to close my eyes. So I did, and made decent practice swings over and over (however balance was an issue). Then they told me "ok, now there is a ball, still hit it with eyes closed" and I immediately reverted back to the weird and akward swing.... they are probably laughing still.

 However I believe there is something there as you say. Just focus on the swing, and not actually try to hit the ball, it will just be there. I will try this and get post the results here. Thanks alot!

If all else fails, I did practice alot of athletics in my youth, I could always pick up highjump again. Javelin was never my thing, I always got beaten by the fat kids.

Loud Mouth b.a.

Johan,

Seeing the ball is no problem, but concentrating on it is.

Many players with your problem actually fear the ball and what it might do to them.

Try painting a simple face on it, and tell it that you love it before teeing it up. Give it a little kiss, but avoid swallowing the ball.

Eliminate fear and re-focus on feelings of love and gracefully showing off. Relax. Let the club do the work. Swing easy. All will come good. 

Wayne Santorini

Johan Lund

Yes. I fear the ball. IT is not my friend! I can adapt me weird swing on the course and actually hit the ball somewhat where I want it (just aim 70% left of where you want it to land ) But as my pro told me... Sure that works if you are happy with your 36hcp.

 Thanks for the pep-talk. I suppose I could tell myself the ball is my friend. Fake it until you make it.

EDIT: I have no idea what remapping with NLP means
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming - oh, haha

Andy Kenyon

I'd pick up on a couple of points made by Mr SLD that have helped me recently. 

First is the 80-90% backswing.  I do this now - any more and I get all off balance.

Second is the follow through pose.  Until recently I felt I was pulling up early and was very stiff in the follow through.  In the last few rounds I have been concentrating on a graceful sweep and the classic golfer finish which has worked wonders - keeps my hands in the correct place relative to the ball and just seems to let the ball get in the way of the club.

Both the above are working at the mo and are to be recommended.

Darren Ramowski

Johan would recommend uploading videos to Youtube rather than people having to download.  

Gets round a whole host of problems with suspicious files etc

Johan Lund

Sorry my bad, I must confess I didn't read the forum rules before I posted.

I can assure you/anyone who downloaded them that the files were safe though since I recorded them myself and uploaded them directly from my phone to that website that I own, and whose webserver is in a very safe server cluster enviroment.

I will however edit my first post with youtube links instead.

Thank you

Loud Mouth b.a.

An English Longdriver wrote to me a few weeks ago using the same expression "my bad"  instead of "my mistake." Sadly our youngsters are clearly corrupting foreigners with their * dingo lingo. Foreigners like Johan who otherwise write better English than most native Brits.

Perhaps I cherish our language too much?  

*  Possibly I'm just as bad?  

Darren Ramowski

Johan, no worries, I'm just protecting people getting in to the habit of downloading unknown files from 3rd party sites.  Not saying anything wrong with your files/site it's just good practice

Sanders, I think 'My Bad' is actually an americanism or is that americanizm did I spell practice right above (C or S)  

Loud Mouth b.a.

Darren,

I guess than one can become too zealous about language outside of professional writing arenas.

The 's' and the 'c' question is an interesting one.

Sometimes lawyers write that they practice law instead of practise law. But often Freudian errors have deep roots in truth.  

In the past I attempted to train numerous secretaries when to use 's and when to use s.' Only one of their number ever fully grasped the difference.  A few came close to mastering the principle but most invariably fell into the trap of writing Mr. Jone's books.

Usually I don't mention such things on forums as it can possibly induce some potential contributors not to contribute. Much better that they can put their points across without being critisized over such things.  

I once verbally attacked, and consequently lost,  a school teacher friend who constantly corrected my foreign wife's grammar over dinner.  At the end of the day  people are usually more important than words. But not always!

Johan Lund

Allright, main post updated with youtube link instead:

 That is from yesterday. Will upload from today later on... I can tell you that loving the ball did not help!

Stuart Govan

Johan, I will leave comments on your swing to the experts on this forum.

But I have to say you win the prize for the most practice swings!

Some people on here would say that honour is mine but I think you have dethroned me

Stephen Hall

I'm far from being an expert, but here's my ill-informed opinion. If you're so worried about your swing that you're taking several practice swings each time, then perhaps you're exacerbating the mental problem.

I mean, if the vast majority of your swings are without a ball, then the times that you do have a ball in front of you become relatively rarer, and somehow more 'special'. As a result, maybe you feel even more pressure when you actually go to take a shot. How about getting rid of the practice swings entirely next time you go to the range, and as previously suggested just trying to 'practice swing' through a ball each time? If there's always a ball in the way then maybe you'll have to get used to it and eventually won't tense up/get stressed about it.

Good luck. Throwing stuff is hard work and bad for you, and I think golf is (sometimes) more fun than javelin anyway.

Steve Cowle

Hi Johan,

Whatever you are trying to do, stop at once. The more of those practice swings you make the more you groove that movement and you will have very little chance of hitting it straight.

Book a few lessons with a local pro and get the basics sorted first, slowly building up to a more compact swing. In the meantime practice with your feet together and a headcover under each armpit. Do half swings working on trying to strike the ball with a square clubface - and only try to swing at 50% power, your shot with a seven iron should go no further than 100 yds with this move.

Good Luck!

SteveCowleGolf 

Johan Lund

Hi  Steve,

I am trying to use a more steep swing, since when I went to the pro I had my swing half a metre lower, behind my back, playing baseball as he expressed it. That is what I am trying to do anyway.

Any more lessons will ruin me I am afraid.
If I focus on hitting the ball, without regard to the swing I will most likely hit it 150ish yards with a 7 iron without too much effort, however I do make an occasional miss, and those I hit get hooked. My pro told me this was because my swing plane was way to flat, and I hade to compensate with doing something with my wrists.

I took a few lessons over a period of time, and as you say, I tried to build the swing slowly. I started with half 50% swings, and had no trouble hitting the ball with a square clubface. But as soon as I try to swing higher I go into baseball-mode, and that is what I am trying to not do. But maybe I am doing something else terribly wrong instead.

So Mr.SLD... you knew a javelin coach?

Loud Mouth b.a.

Johan,

I don't read anything which is not fixable, but possibly you need a coach with a stronger personality assuming you are willing to re-build from scratch and take a series of  lessons progressing one step at a time?

Otherwise buy some teaching videos and a large mirror.   

I suspect that at least half of the problem is possibly your unwillingness to trust another coach and begin again? If so, then this is understandable.

Please don't ever again replace one error with another. Learn the basics from books and videos. Learn to recognise patently wrong advice.

Initially (different to Steve) - once given sound instruction on how to swing -  I would possibly have you  working daily with just a grip, or a gripped shaft, (no ball) repeating correct movements over and over again until they became ingrained and second nature to you. I would then possibly go on to what Steve recommends. But everyone has their own views and ways. Sometimes one has to 'suck it and see' what works best for you.

Some students fail to relate to work outs without a ball being present! One needs to explore a pupil's mind set before finally deciding on what is best suited. One cannot really do that too well on a correspondence basis.

Listen to Steve, and carefully consider the above, and you will not be for the high jump (or javelin) just yet.  Find a healthy route which you feel comfortable with and throw  away the old for ever.   

Johan Lund

I do not like golf pros very much to be honest. One told me that I should play as a righty instead. I tried this but have no feeling at all, and could not hit the air if I tried to. My swing plane is alot better as a righty though.
Anyway, tried that, did not work out. Another pro told me... well.... he told me nothing really, he watched me hit balls, told me to slow down, and then he said goodbye.
This last one was probably the best, he made a minor change with the grip, and to think about moving the club parallel to the ball, and then make a lift (before I just rotated around my back, and never made a lift).

I do not feel when I do something wrong though, and I am not a good golfer, I do not know if I do it right or wrong. But I will try out some of Steve's suggestions. Thank you!

Chris Perry

Johan,

First thing I noticed is that you lift the club straight up before starting the back swing.  This, coupled with your low and reaching stance, will result in a flat swing plane.  I would suggest standing a little closer to the ball and more upright.  Try also putting a ball about six inches behind the clubhead and in line with the ball you intend to hit.  Try to knock this out of the way with your backswing.  This will encourage you to start the backswing along the correct plane.

My bad swing is a flat one (I get right hand dominant as I played as lot of squash in my younger days) and the swing thought of pushing the ball out of the way helps me to resolve this

Wayne Santorini

Your shoulders and thighs are open too much as well, but PLEASE stop that wrist lift as you take the club away.

And Steve is correct in telling to stop those wrong movements, what you are doing is building "Neural Pathways" that are wrong, the more the body does something the more natural and automatic it becomes, it won't differentiate. Any pattern/process completed 21 times or more will seem normal and you need to stop the bad movements you have now got ingrained.

I know you have a distrust of coaches but it's worth sourcing one through the internet even if you have to travel to him, so that he can get you doing the things you should be doing and yes he might even need to have a stronger personality to work with you, but your motivation in getting this swing correct should be his building block for you to proceed and progress.

Johan Lund

Wayne, could you please explain what it means, with my shoulders and thighs being too "open"?
I promise I will not do any more wrist lifts.

I am very grateful for all the replies and answers I receive in this thread, and that you guys take your time to try to help me. Thank you!

Wayne Santorini

The best way to explain is that when your ball is on line to a target your feet, thighs and shoulders should run parallel: like train lines.

As you stand in position your toes should be parallel to the ball to target, if you hold a garden cane (straight one) against your shoulders you will see if the shoulders are open, in your case being a left handed player, it means the line of your shoulders are facing more to the right. Likewise if you hold a cane against your thighs you will see they are open too.

In a right handed player their shoulders would be facing more to the left, if your shoulders were "closed" it would mean they are facing more to the left (for you) and right for a right handed player.

All the lines have to be parallel

hopefully that will help if not I will try and produce a video over the weekend for you to see.

Johan Lund

Thank you Wayne, I understand now. There is no need to produce a video for me, however thank you alot for the offer.

I have a golf video where they show this with the lines, I thought I had them right since my pro never said anything about how I was standing and adressing the ball... well that was not true. He actually told me that I was standing good and did not correct how I was standing.

I will try to stand parallel to where the line through the ball is going, not do any wrist lifts, and knock a ball away on my way back, when I hit the range today. Sounds easy enough

Chris Perry

Johan Lund

Hi Chris

I did get that videoded (that can not be a word). And at first, seen to the result alone, most of my balls went somewhat straight. I did not hook a single ball, but instead I made some shanks, and some light slices. i did revert back a bit to my old swing, with the club going around my back... I do not understad why it is so difficult to lift the club instead of... well...whatever I am doing instead. Whenever I tried to not go around my back, I hit a terrible shank instead.

I have one movie from behind (the angle is a bit bad, sorry for that) and one from in front of me. During the in front of me angle I hit alot of shanks and slices, in a much higher degree than I did when I was alone and filmed myself from behind.

EDIT; I did try you tip with knocking a golf ball away Chris, however I got lazy putting it back over and over again so I had a peg I aimed for instead. I do not know if there is much difference in these videos and the first I uploaded, it felt a little different, but when I look they look pretty much the same to me, except in the top of the swing. 

EDIT#2: When I try to not "wrist lift" I feel I just continue with my arms around me, I never bend my elbow and my arms are pretty straight. This I have done for a long time and is what I was trying to get away from by "wrist-lifting" 

Wayne Santorini

Your left leg (non Target Leg) is swaying back on the takeaway Johan, that should be held firm to give resistance and build coil strength.

I also notice you hold the grip "Baseball" type, which makes you swing flatter.

Also try and get the video inline with you it helps in seeing your swing better.

Johan Lund

First of all, I have to thank all of you with all the feedback! It is amazing how much you have helped me through this. I went 9 holes with my dad this evening, and scored 22 points, which is nowhere near anything I have done earlier this year. 
I left my driver and fairway clubs at home and only used irons.

I saw that the angle from behind was a bit weird when I later on uploaded the movie to youtube. I will get that right the next time.
I tried to hold still with my left leg on the course, but that one was easier said than done I experienced.

I suppose by baseball grip you mean too much in my hands, and to little in my fingers. I could try another grip next time I hit the driving range (most likely tomorrow) and see how it goes.

Again, thank you all! 

Wayne Santorini

One idea to try Johan is to get a "Training Grip" by David Leadbetter which you can place on a shaft and it trains your hands to be in unison, also there is a pair of gloves by Butch Harmon I think they are called the "Right Grip, they have a soft bar in each of the gloves that you place on the grip in a correct way (instructions are included) that also places your hands in unison.

Remember the more you do something correct the more it becomes natural.

Steve Cowle

Johan, your set up looks OK but you need to stay more connected in the takeaway. As soon as you hands detatch too far from the body it throws the club off plane and adjustments need to be made on the downswing.

Try the towel under the left armpit drill for you backswing in order to keep your left elbow closer to the body. On the follow through you can drop the towel.

Chris Perry

Steve Cowle

Johan Lund

Wayne, neither "the training grip" nor "the right grip" is available here in Sweden. I will however see if I can adjust my grip to hold the club more in my fingers than my palms.

Steve, thank you, I will try the towel drill.

Chris Perry

Matt Simmons

Johan, these guys really know their golf, they have all helped me get alot closer to my goals.

Also I have a coach/pro that I really get on with. We just clicked. That has also been massive in the improvement in my game.

So. Listen to these guys and find a coach that you really really get on with. I've had all the problems you have got and more and have nipped them all in the bud (almost) with help from here and the pro.

Keep going mate