Forum > Any other business?

Wayne Santorini

Thought I'd throw this comment in to see what most players think?

How do you feel the weather affects the balls performance?? and by how much.

Michael Allison

Loud Mouth b.a.

http://www.incepta.ca/forum/index.php/topic,5736.0html

http://www.lifeintherough.
com/2008/02/16/golf-balls-and-cold-weather/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4sedS
udqlc

There is an important weather factor which is usually overlooked when this topic is discussed and such is humidity.

Last year I competed in Pennsylvania, and approximately 300 yards from the tournament area was Conneaut Lake.

I hit a few practice balls at around 10am. It was already warm, and the air looked quite clear. I was ripping the ball, and expected to be peppering the 340 yards marker. Instead my balls were dropping in the 200 - 220 yard region.

Whatever I tried I could not hit longer. I was so embarrassed that I was about to pack up and not even compete.

But another competitor informed me that the problem was down to humidity and everything would change in 1-2 hours time, which it did!

Had I not experienced the dramatic effects of humidity first hand I doubt that I would have believed such a story.

There are of course other factors to take into account not discussed here.

Michael Allison

Tim Hawkins

Ivan's links are sort of correct, but it is a little bit more complicated than that and it's a fairly good guide line.  There are a number of factors that effect the behaviour of a golf ball:

Ball temperature:  This changes the hardness and elasticity of the ball.  The colder the ball is the harder and less elastic it gets, therefore it should travel further unless the material goes to the point where it becomes plastic rather than elastic, in which case the trend reverses.  For most iomic polymers this is around -5°C.

Air temperature:  The colder the air the denser it is, this will mean there will be more drag and it will not go as far.  However, spin will increase the lift generated because the air is 'grippier' so short irons should go about the same distance but higher.

Air humidity:  The higher the humidity the denser the air and the effects will be much the same as temperature.

Air ambient pressure:  Generally follows temperature but changes with elevation.  The higher you are the less dense the air and the ball will go further.

So, Phoenix on a hot, dry day and the ball will go miles.  St Andrews on a wet, cold day and, er, it won't.

ZZZZZZZZ 

John Flood

Loud Mouth b.a.

Wayne Santorini

Loud Mouth b.a.

Wayne,

John F. looks 20 years younger than me and much fitter, and I have to satisfy a beautiful young Russian wife so don't judge a book by its cover. 

Some of us 'old dogs' are stronger and faster than we were thirty years ago thanks to viagra, vitamins, and a good vegan diet. 

Dave ley

Alan Gunnigle

John Flood

You old guys are dirty effers, I played with a senior last weekend & all he talked about was Viagra gel, thailand & lady boys!!

Certainly opened my eyes!

Loud Mouth b.a.

Dirty Heffers? No, wise old bulls.

A wise old bull stood on the top of a hill looking down into the green valley below where grazed beautiful lady cows.

A young heffer ran up to to the old bull excitedly:

"Let's run down into the valley and do us a cow!"

The wise old bull continued slowly chewing the cud, and casting a glance to the panting heffer slowly proclaimed:

"Nah. Let's meander down there and do the lot."

For the benefit of the site censor "Do us a cow" is parlance for "Have a chat with."   

Dave:

http://www.russianbridesanddating.com/index.ph
p?Campaign=GooglePPC-Men

Better not to tell the present wife. 

David Ferris

@ michael

 srixon soft feel is a 2 peice low compression ball and is dead on for winter as well as summer.

obviously the ball will not travel as far in winter due to being cold and the air its travelling through being cold as well but the basic rule id follow personally is below certain temperatures (ie. winter) you should use low compression 2 piece balls as opposed to higher compression 3 piece balls as they will perform as well if not better and more importantly they wont sting the hands off you when u hit them as a cold 3 peice will most times. besides in the winter theres not the same need for the spin u would get off a 3 piece as the greens are softer 

Tim Hawkins

David - I think that your theory is based more on hearsay than physics.  There are so many more factors to consider rather than just stating that ball A is better in winter than ball B, although at the moment I can't prove it physically.  However, after a bit of a beer sodden meal I have decided to go ahead and build ball bounce test rig # 2 to do a few comparative tests which, unlike it's predecessor will be able to take into account temperature effects as well.  Outline plan at the moment is to try 3 different types of balls (thinking perhaps Srixon's - as I have Soft Feels, AD333's and Z-URS's handy) at different temperatures.

Could be as dull as the audio trace tests I did a couple of years ago, but it kept a few people amused.... 

David Marshall

The things Mr Hawkins does to while away the hours, until it is once again time to visit the Algarve.

ball bounce rig #2, indeed.  Try and get out more Tim

Tim Hawkins

Ah, but David - our newly paved patio and cunningly designed twin braced pergola makes the ideal 2.5m drop (lucky, hey!) to a hard, consistent surface, it's even got a support post that will allow a tape rule to be fixed to it to gauge the rebound.  Now all I need is to build a release mechanism and borrow a high speed camera...

Maybe I should take up knitting, or god forbid, go and get a job... 

Loud Mouth b.a.

Tim,

As I'm sure you know, such types of experiments have been carried out before, eg.

http://tuhsphysics.ttsd.k12.or.us/Research/IB07/Allworth/index.htm#state

Howev
er, results are invariably questionable due to essential variables often being either excluded, or the wrong variable used. For example the impact velocity being totally unlike that of a golf club, or the C.o.R. of the collision substance being very different to the typical 83% return of a  driver head. (But even that return is false for most players as such requires a SS of at least 110mph).  

To extrapolate results gained from a ball dropped from say a height of 3 metres onto a very hard surface (for use within  golf course conditions)  would be dangerous.

On a more sophisticated level if one induces an oblique collision with a golf ball one can remarkably achieve a C.o.R. of 100%+, and possibly also if the ball is cold.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_restitution

And, at the risk of becoming controversial, at the extreme end of the scale, today's fastest club swingers swing so fast that possibly even a high compression ball is being 'overpowered.' If such is true then, for such powerful players,  cooling a ball could theoretically induce a longer hit.  

So whilst such experiments can be fun, their applicability to golf course conditions is highly questionable.

Which I believe is why the true measure of ball / temperature performance is best individually empirically assessed,  rather than assessed from simplistic laboratory experiments which are so artificial as to be meaningless.

It all comes down to what conclusions one draws from laboratory results.    

David Ferris

@ tim. not so much hearsay as my own personal experience of using different balls. im not into the science bit and as said above the results could differ based on swing speed etc but ive tried 3 piece balls in the winter and the hitting of them was not a pleasant experience with my getting a big judder up my wrists and arms sometimes on impact and my distance definitely being less than the 2 peice balls (even cheap ones) i used. tbh though i have no need for 3 piece soft balls at the minute as im too busy trying to get better at the basics to give much time to spinning the ball so for the time being im using srixon soft feel or ad333 which i find give me a great performance in the long game but also have a good feel for chipping and putting unlike the various distance balls available which i never feel i have any control over with the flat stick.

i guess in the end it will come down to individuals preference and their own charistics/swing speed etc.

John Pettitt

I have played this game a little while now and have never had the experience of a big judder up my wrists and arms.

When I was a member at frinton on Sea golf club, the pro was an old man, like me ,and he played with the famous brick, a Top Flite XL. I asked him why, and he said to me, John, I need all the length I can get at my time in life.

I then brought up the difficulties he must face with the short game and his reponse was that it takes no time at all to learn how a certain golf ball behaves and one adjusts accordingly. I can testify that his short game was up to scratch.

Loud Mouth b.a.

John,

Interesting story but one which suggests that the pro did not really understand ball compression.

http://searchwarp.com/swa300352.htm

Increased striking distance is not always a direct result of increasing ball compression. Indeed, many golfers would hit further if they reduced their ball compression.

Using ball compression to hit further is more about correctly matching the right ball compression to one's swing speed. 

John Pettitt

Ivan, I don't think Ray (The Pro) was interested in one bit what the ball compression was, he knew that, for him, this particular ball went further than any other and he also knew that he would have to devise various methods to get the ball to do what he required in the short game department.

Being old school, he knew that there was more than one way to skin a cat, and being the fine golfer that he was  proved that his methods, skill and flair would enable him to get round a difficult links course in par or better.

No matter what any testbed tells you the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Loud Mouth b.a.

John,

Point taken.

Indeed the 'Top Flight XL' marketing mentioned nothing about compression and inferred that, because of its technology, it held arguably magic qualities which increased BOTH distance and feel and suited golfers possessing a wide range of swing speeds. Thus, it arguably managed to achieve to satisfy competing opposites. 

It may well have been a fantastic piece of design but I cannot help be suspicious of a piece of kit which purports to solve conflicting issues never solved before.

I try to keep an open mind in a industry where arguably manufacturers lie like no other, and constantly get away with it. But, my optimism always defers to pragmatism.

Did you ever personally use this ball John and did it indeed achieve everything? Your earlier comments suggest otherwise.

John Pettitt

Ivan, I have a feeling you are missing my point, all down no doubt to my inabilities to explain myself properly.

I agree that a ball that was made for distance will not have the same qualities to enable it to be easily stopped on the green.

Ray knew this and had to play a different type of shot allowing for the ball not stopping  as quickly as others.

As others will testify on the forum, I played a Top Flite Z balata for many years until it was not produced anymore. For me, the ball did not go any further than anything else, but I had learned how to get it to stop when I needed it to.

When the course conditions were such that stopping a ball was not easy then I called upon my many years of experience in adapting a shot that would achieve the same result.

I have probably played with every make of ball since the fifties and I see no improvement in the modern ball to those of yesteryear. Don't forget that courses were not watered in those days and all greens were hard, although the grass was kept longer to compensate.

David Ferris

@ john. maybe you hit the sweet spot better than me more often which is why no judder. lol

maybe it was because when i was playing them last winter it was in sub zero temperatures with frozen fairways and greens an a couple of time even snow all over the course including the greens. it was a long cold winter and i had to still get out to get my fix. .lol

John Pettitt

When there is a long cold winter, David, I do what most sensible animals do and that is hibernate. Personally I see no fun in being out in those conditions, let alone trying to play golf.

For me to enjoy this game, it is eesential that I am playing where the greens are superb, as this allows for better scoring and takes away the excuses when one plays poorly.

David Ferris

i kn ow what u are saying john but as somebody who is seriously trying to improve if i waited around for good weather in this country that would rule out 3 quarters of the year. lol

the funny thing is the greens on my local course apart from when they were frozen were better in winter than the last lot of weeks when no rain for weeks actually killed off a lot of the grass. the sooner they finish the work and get the sprinklers in the better. i actually found playing through the winter has improved me a lot in both my consistency and also in my distance due to the constant excercising im getting at swinging a club quite a few days a week for just over a year now. funny enough when my golf society played in january and the course was covered in snow and the greens were coated in at least an inch of it i scored one of my best scores for that course. weird eh? 

David Lythgoe

John,

I used the Topflite "Tour Edition" for a while and I understand what you mean about Ray?

The Penfold Patent and the original Titleist 384 Tour Balata, one bunker shot and confined to the Practice Ball Bag. So a more durable cover was needed and devised for todays market.

Also when looking at the length a ball goes, most don't look at CARRY. A ball will go 50-100yds further in summer because of RUN. The difference between Winter and Summer should not be looked at as to how far a Driver goes but what Club you hit to the same Par3.

TheLyth

Loud Mouth b.a.

A interesting point made by David which links in with my recent internal musings about how Longdrive competitions are judged: Namely vis a vis total distance achieved including ball run on. 

When I witness someone winning the World Longdrive Champs. with a ball carry of less than the runner up competitor I cannot help but wonder about efficacy.

My thoughts drift back to my days as an athlete when I recall than no-one was interested in how far a shot putt or discus ran on after landing. Only carry distance counted.

But, if principles of athletics were transposed over to Longdrive it would certainly make it even more difficult for mainstream golfers to relate to as their distances always include ball run on until the ball finally drops into the hole.

I guess that most things in life are not completely fair.