Forum > Rules and Etiquette

Russell Middleton

What are the rules regarding playing a provisional ball?

The reason I ask is this,

I hit my drive from the tee and my ball faded towards the ditch/bushes.

Not sure if it had gone into the hazard I said I would play a provisional ball.

One of the people I was playing with stated that I could not play a provisional ball.

He said that you could only play a provisional ball if my original ball had gone OOB's or was lost.

Now I've been in this ditch/bushes before and there was every chance that I might not find my ball.

He stated that if I hit another ball from the tee I would have to play with that ball and be three off the tee!

As it happened when I arrived at the spot where I thought my ball was there it was, about three feet from the bushes.

This person played off a four handicap so I assumed that he had previous experience of this so knew what he was talking about.

So what is the correct option?

Russ

Wayne Santorini

He is wrong, you can play a Provisional at anytime you believe your ball to be OOB or Lost. Rule 27-2

You tell him your playing a provisional before e walks forward, if you fail to do so and you play another ball, then that ball becomes the ball in play.

Christopher Watmore

Russell Middleton

Thanks guys, that is what I thought!

Any doubt about finding my ball then take a provisional.

He was adamant that I could only play a provisional ball from the tee if my original ball was OOB's or lost.

The fact that I suspected my original ball had gone into the bushes or ditch (water hazard) made no difference.

The problem I had was if I walked down the fairway and then couldn't find my ball I would have to walk all the way back to the tee to play another ball.  Or could we have agreed where my ball had gone in the hazard/bushes and then dropped one from there?

Russ

Wayne Santorini

You would have had to go back to the tee, he's either playing mind games or he's not up on the rules.

Personally I carry a rule book at ALL times, just so you can check your options.........might be an idea for you to do so

Colin Coote

As i understand,

'If a ball MAY be lost outside a hazard' you are eligible to play a provisional ball in accordance with the Rules.  For you NOT to be able to claim your ball MAY be LOST outside a hazard you have to be VIRTUALLY CERTAIN that your ball is in the hazard

It is only when you are 'VIRTUALLY CERTAIN' that your ball is in a hazard that you are prevented from playing a PROVISIONAL BALL.  There are very few circumstances where it would be benficial to play a Prov. if you are virtually certain you are in a hazard.

On previous occasions i have lost balls that landed on a fairway covered in leaves, hitting into the sun and lost the flight of the ball and subsequently lost the ball, and many more occasions where you would have thought of it being easier to find your ball than not find it.  On most of these occasion i would have been entitled to play a provisional ball.

From experience, never trust your playing partner knows the Rules, learn them yourself and be confident of your interpretation, and if in doubt, play the hole out with 2 balls and get a ruling later.  this prevents your playing partner from playing mind games, and allows you to play mind games with them.

Wayne Santorini

Russell Middleton

So from what Colin has stated this person was indeed correct about me not being able to play a provisional ball.

My ball landed on the fairway and bounced towards the bushes/ditch (which is marked as a lateral water hazard).

Therefore I was not entitled to play a provisional ball, but the problem would be that when I arrived to look for my ball, if I could not find it then I would have to go back to the tee and play another ball!

The sensible option for me would be to play a provisional ball from the tee, then look for my original ball.  If I find my original ball then I proceed from there, but if I cannot find my original ball I use the provisional ball.

Still confused, I'll have to speak to the pro the next time I see him.

Russ

David Marshall

Russ...You are the player..It is up to you to decide if you play a provisional ball or not.

May I suggest you read the rules!!

Rule 27 applies.  Here is a paragraph describing a Provisional ball, with a link to the rule

Definition: A second ball played by a golfer who believes his first ball may be lost (but not in a water hazard) or out of bounds.

The penalty for a lost ball or OB is stroke plus distance. That is, the player takes a one stroke penalty and returns to the spot from which the ball was struck and hits again.

So a provisional ball is a timesaver. Rather than first going forward to search, the player announces he is hitting a provisional. If the original ball is then found, the original ball is played. If the original ball really is lost or OB, the provisional is played with a one-stroke penalty.

In the rulebook, see Rule 27.

Chris Perry

No Russ, you could have played a provisional ball.  Unless you were "vitually certain" that the ball was in the hazard (which means you would take a drop up there) then you can play a provisional. 

The guy who said "you could only play a provisional ball if my original ball had gone OOB's or was lost" is talking rubbish.  That's not a provisional, it's putting another ball into play.  Here is the summary of Rule 27: -

You can also play the mind game.  You say "I'm not certain it's in the hazard, it may be out of bounds" so you can play a provisional.  When you get down there if you can't find it you can then declare you are virtually certain it is in the hazard, pick up your provisional and take a drop.

Colin Coote

You can also play the mind game.  You say "I'm not certain it's in the hazard, it may be out of bounds" so you can play a provisional.  When you get down there if you can't find it you can then declare you are virtually certain it is in the hazard, pick up your provisional and take a drop.

i am sorry to say that if you play a provisional ball on the basis that you declare your ball may be out of bounds, you only have the option of playing the provisional ball if you do not find your ball and it is therefore declared Lost OOB, and cannot be at any time declared lost in the hazard. 

Therefore you cannot take a drop, you would then be playing the wrong ball.

David Ferris

you are entitled to play a provisional as long as you declare it if you are not certain if your ball will be in play or findable when u get up there but if you find your first ball you must play it. as you said had you walked up and not found your ball youd have had to walk back to the tee as the only time you could drop for losing your ball up where it went in is if its in a water hazard. for somebody who plays off 4 you would think he'd have known that. i cant understand how you could get to such a level and still not understand one of the fundamental rules of the game.

as with wayne i have a wee pocket size r&a rule book in my bag and then there can be no arguments. it still amazes me how often i have to use it to back up what im saying to disbelieving people.

Chris Perry

Colin, I refer you to the rule: -

"your ball may be lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds " and "If it transpires that the original ball is lost (other than in a water hazard) or out of bounds, you must continue with the provisional ball"

If the hazard is next to out of bounds and you are unsure as to whether your ball is in play, out of bounds or in the hazard, you can play a provisional.  If you can clearly see that your ball is neither out of bounds nor in play, you can be "virtually certain" that it is lost in the hazard.  You can, therefore, take a drop in line with the rules for the hazard. 

I also refer you to rule 27.2

In other words, even if you think the ball may be in a water hazard, you can still play a provisional and once you are convinced itis indeed lost in the water hazard, you pick up the provisional and take the appropriate action associated with the ball being lost in the hazard

David Lythgoe

Guys, you are confusing matters.

The guy was almost right.

You can only hit a Provisional Ball when you think your original is OoB or LOST OUTSIDE A WATER HAZARD and at no other time.

If you think your ball may be lost somewhere near a Water Hazard, you can play a Provisional Ball but you can not then claim that your Ball was lost inside the Water Hazard. If after hitting a Provisional Ball you find your Original Ball inside a Water Hazard you can carry on with the Original Ball.

Russ,

If you said "That may be in the Water Hazard or lost in the bushes" the other guy was right and you can't play a Provisional Ball under those thoughts because of you thinking there was a chance the ball was in the Water Hazard. In this case you can't have it both ways.

Also if you hit a Provisional and then find the Original Ball unplayable and the only option is to return to the place you originally hit from, you can't use the Provisional Ball as that shot.

The Rules are complex.

TheLyth

David Lythgoe

Sorry guys, I may have got it wrong.

I have had a look at The Decisions and came across this:-

27-2a/2.5  Player Plays Provisional Ball in Belief Original Ball Might Be Lost Outside Water Hazard Then Discovers There
Is No Possibility of Its Being Lost Outside Water Hazard

Q. A player's tee shot is struck towards an area of trees, bushes and tall grass. Believing his ball might be lost outside a water hazard, the player announces his intention to play a provisional ball and plays a ball from the tee. When he arrives at the area, he finds that the area in question is wetlands that has been defined as a lateral water hazard and that it is known or virtually certain that his ball is in it. What is the ruling?

A. As the player played the second ball from the tee in the belief that his original ball might be lost outside a water hazard, that ball was a provisional ball. The subsequent discovery that the area in question is in fact a lateral water hazard is irrelevant. Therefore, the player must abandon the provisional ball and proceed under Rule 26-1 — see Rule

It all comes down to how certain you are that the ball was actually lost inside the Water Hazard?

TheLyth

Chris Perry

David Lythgoe

Chris,

The only problem I could see from it is the inclusion of "THEN DISCOVERS THAT THERE IS NO POSSIBILITY OF ITS BEING LOST OUTSIDE WATER HAZARD".

I would like to be able to get clear Rulings without having to refer to The Decisions.

TheLyth

Colin Coote

Chris Perry

Check my issue on the other thread Colin.  In short, I hooked into the trees (bounced in), played a provisional hoping for a lucky bounce, got down there and found red stakes with a wide ditch and a stream at the bottom (by wide I mean 20-25 yards wide).  I'm certain my ball was in there but didn't know whether I should take the drop there or continue playing the provisional.  The decision from the R&A Lyth posted answers my question in that I should abandon (pick up) my provisional and act in line with the rule 26 (ball lost inside a hazard). 

This is not my interpretation of the rules.  I asked the question because I wanted to make sure if it happened again I knew what to do and did the right thing.  On the occasion in question I did both and played two balls as I was unsure, planning to get a ruling after the game.  As it turned out I scored the same with both so it didn't matter.

With regards to your comment "i am sorry to say that if you play a provisional ball on the basis that you declare your ball may be out of bounds, you only have the option of playing the provisional ball if you do not find your ball and it is therefore declared Lost OOB, and cannot be at any time declared lost in the hazard. in addition, because you have declared your provisional ball due to possibly being OOB, it is completely irrelevant whether your ball is lost in the hazard or not, it can only be interpreted as being lost OOB. You have to find your ball otherwise your prov. ball is the ball in play. ", I suggest you read the decision made by the R&A in the Lyth's post.  They disagree with you and I'm sure you will understand if I take their word over yours. 

With regards to your comment "taking into account that you have to be honest and fair when playing Golf I would say that making any decision that contradicts a previous decision because it suits you, then this is not playing the game in the correct manner", ask anyone who has played me.  I'm sure that they will tell you that I do what is right and fair, as per the rules.

Colin Coote

Chris, i understand your explanation and i stand by previous comments that you have to judge each incident on its own merit.  I am having difficulty in transferring my thoughts into this thread but i will persist.

However, you seem to have misinterpreted my comments, again i stand by all my earlier comments, but you seem to be basing your interpretation entirely by your own 1 example contained in another thread that is not identical.  This is where you need to learn to differentiate between different scenarios on the course. 

Let me explain, on your previous thread you played a ball into an area that you clearly did not know contained a hazard, that is fact and because of this fact alone you are entitled to assess the situation when you get to that area.  But, this is a completely different scenario to what you refer to in this thread,

'You say "I'm not certain it's in the hazard, it may be out of bounds" so you can play a provisional.

This is my reference point to your decision making and my interpretation.

Your comment confirms that you have prior knowledge of the existence of the hazard and you knowingly hit towards it.  but then state you did not think it was in the hazard but more likely to be OOB.  So you know the ball was probably in one or the other.  But because you knew the area you hit your ball you made a decision because your ball could be OOB or LOST OOB.  In this circumstance you are not entitled to change your previous decision because circumstances have not changed.  Regardless of where your ball is Lost, it is classed as being OOB if you fail to find it.

Just so i know, because you were not certain you hit your ball in to the hazard,it may be OOB, why would you then change your mind and then be virtually certain your ball could not be lost OOB and had to be lost in the hazard.  Especially seeing as you were fully awar of the existence of the hazard. 

Had you wanted to have the option of taking a drop adjacent to the hazard, you had to find your ball in the hazard or not to play a provisional and declare you are Virtually Certain you are in the hazard.  That is in my opinion the correct procedure.

This is the same basic principle of decision making of why you are not allowed to play a provisional ball because you think your ball may be unplayable.  It is this integrity and principles of applying the rules as they are meant to be applied throughout all of the rules that must be observed.

Wayne Santorini

Colin Coote

i hope that has helped and thank you Wayne.

The following may also help,

Because you think you may have hit your ball OOB and you play a prov.ball and you can't find the ball OOB does not mean it is not OOB, it has to be classed as OOB unless there are very exceptional circumstances that make you virtually cetain the ball has to be in a specific place other than OOB such as a hidden hazard that extends throughout the area you are vitually certain your ball has come to rest in, or the area is completely clear and you would see you ball without actually searching.  These circumstances are extremely rare in my opinion and therefore not normal.  Therefore the onus is on the golfer to find his ball inside 5 minutes as it does not matter where the ball actually is.

Once your decision has been made you have to stand by that decision, such as not playing a provisional and then declaring your ball lost after 2 minutes searching, before you turn round to head off back to replay your shot you find your ball, it does not matter, your ball has been declared lost, it is no longer in play.  You have to stand by your earlier decision. 

It is not always easy to understand how the rules are applied and some seem complex, but if you try to understand the principles of the rules you will realise no rule contradicts another, and any point not covered by the rules should have the decision made in equity with the rules, basically this means you stand by your previous decision and you do not have the choice of choosing which rule to apply against you. 

At no point in the rules of golf am i aware that it allows you to make a choice of either continuing with your original ball or provisional ball.  It tells you which ball is in play. 

David Lythgoe

Colin,

Yes, well put sir.

But will you stop confusing me by saying OoB or Lost OoB, it's LOST or OoB and in this case Lost outside a Water Hazard.

The simple way to determine the "Known or Vitually certain" part of the ball being lost inside a Water Hazard is to say "Can I get a true and correct Reference Point in which to proceed under Rule 26-1b or c?" If the answer is No, then it really doesn't matter if the ball was either in or out of the Water Hazard, you are either sitting THREE with the Provisional or your walking back to the original spot to play another.

TheLyth

David Lythgoe

Colin,

"Once your decision has been made you have to stand by that decision, such as not playing a provisional and then declaring your ball lost after 2 minutes searching, before you turn round to head off back to replay your shot you find your ball, it does not matter, your ball has been declared lost, it is no longer in play.  You have to stand by your earlier decision"

You can not "Declare a ball lost" it is DEEMED LOST. If, as you say, you start walking back to the original spot before the 5minutes are up and your original ball is found, you CAN play it. It is only when you make a stroke at a 'substituted ball' or a 'provisional ball beyond where you think your original ball is located' that the original ball is deemed lost within those 5minutes.

I'm not an expert on the Rules but I do know a lot about them. Oh and yes there are some contradictions within them.

TheLyth

Chris Perry

I think we are at cross purposes. 

• In my post at 13:16 on 9 June, I was talking about the situation that Russ found himself in
• In my post at 16:186 on 9 June, I was talking about the situation that I found myself in on a different thread

I'm not suggesting these two are interchangeable, nor am I suggesting that I would pick and choose which decision I would follow.  I now know the ruling for the situation I was in and will follow that ruling in all cases moving forward.  I will always play a provisional ball if I beleive that I may not find my ball (unless I believe I will not find it because it is in a hazard) as it saves time and potentially a long walk back. 

• If I find my original ball in play, I will pick up the provisional
• If I do not find my original ball, or find it and it is OOB, I will play my provisional 
• If I am virtually certain that my original ball has become lost in a hazard I did not know was there (I can see it or it's virtually impossible that it has been lost elsewhere), then I will pick up my provisional and play in line with Rule 26
• If I find my original ball and it is in play but unplayable, I will pick up the provisional and take a drop with the original ball OR return to the original position to replay the shot

Let's get one thing clear.  I play to the rules and do not "interpret" them inconsistently to suit myself.  Where the rules offer me options I may take a different option depending on the situation, but the enforcement of the ruling will remain consistent

Colin Coote

Sorry David

i'm just bored at the moment as i have not been able to play for over 3 weeks now because of injury and i don't know when i'll even start practicing again.

Just keeping the brain ticking over on here and refreshing my knowledge of the rules.

I think its brilliant that we can discuss the rules on here and get different interpretations.  Its all about learning and not about who is right or wrong.  As far as i am concerned you play golf with the rules you believe to be correct and until you know differently you are playing within the rules, fantastic.  The only problem i have found with that is when you learn more about the rules during a round when it would have been better to have stayed ignorant of these facts. 

As you improve your game you also improve your knowledge.

Everyone needs to realise that you only actually cheat when you know you are doing wrong.

It is this thread that has educated me to this specific rule on provisional ball.

Colin Coote

thanks David, ball has to be deemed lost only after 5 minutes,

thats good to know, so long as i don't play another ball.

Chris, as you are aware my interpretation was based on your reference that was hypothetical.

What we all need to understand is that you should always judge each scenario on its own merit, that is why we can never really give a full and definitive response to any question about all applications of the rules through this forum.

Comments can only be taken on board and then assessed for which bits are relevant to any given situation.  It is then down to the golfer to make the appropriate decision.

fini

David Preston

Based on the previous threads I find myself a little confused!

could someone answer this one for me?

I hit my tee shot around 240 yards, it  slightly slices down a hill to which I cannot see clearly.  It looks like it may be heading towards a thickly wooded area.

Now from my angle there is no way I can be confident it is either openly in play or deep in the woods, where I may add there would be slim chances of actually finding it.

I played a provisional, one because there were many players behind me (busy day) 2 Impossible to know where my ball could have gone due to contours of the land.

I get up to where I think the ball would be & can't find it, in fact it does look as much as you can humanly judge, it as gone into the thicket. I looked & again could not find my original ball.

Do I continue with my provisonal, taking a one stroke penalty. Or do I drop from the area I am reasonably certain it may have entered the woods? Again with 1 stroke penalty?

Checked the rule book, got totally mangled in the brain!!

thank you to anyone that can shed light on this one.

John Pettitt

Chris Perry