Forum > Rules and Etiquette

Chris Perry

Played a round last night.  The 8th hole is densly tree lined all the way down the left hand side (if it's in there, it's lost).  I managed to hook it off the tee and saw my ball take one bounce and disappear into the trees.  I took a provisional off the tee and walked down to see if I could find my first ball.  When I got down to the area my ball went in, there were red stakes just inside the tree line as a stream was running through the trees (you couldn't see these from the tee).  I couldn't see my ball

I wasn't sure of the correct action so I took a drop in line with the lateral hazrd rules and played both balls into the hole.  As the score was the same for both balls, it didn't affect my card.

My question is, given that I played a provisional off the tee, does this automatically become the ball in play, or can I still take the drop due to the lateral hazard I wasn't aware of?  The drop was further from the hole than the position of the provisional.  I just want to make sure I do the right thing in future.

David Marshall

If you play a provisional ball, and can't find your first ball, then the provisional ball becomes the ball in play.

Your first ball may have gone over the small stream and gone into the trees. You will never know!

David Lythgoe

Chris,

A Provisional ball is hit in case you lose your 1st ball or it is Out of Bounds and only those things.

If you find a Water Hazard (like you did) the first ball can still be lost or Out of Bounds and you could play your 3rd shot with the Provisional Ball.

If you find your ball in the Water Hazard then the Provisional is now out of play and not able to be used (your 1st ball is not lost or out of bounds). you then proceed with that 1st ball.

The big problem and a very mis-understood ruling is when you hit a Provisional and then find your 1st ball in a spot where your only option is to return to the original spot you played from. In this case, even though you have a ball close by (the Prov) you still have to return to where you last played from to hit your next shot. Time consuming yes, but that is what the Rules say.

TheLyth

David Marshall

Chris Perry

The statement in the rules says something like "It is a matter of fact as to whether a ball has gone into a water hazard", and "if it can be reasonably assumed" that the ball has gone into the hazard and it is agreed by all parties that it is, then it is considered to be in there (wording is unlikely to be correct but you get the gist).  In my case, it was a reasonable assumption that my ball was in the lateral hazard (it's not a trickle of a stream!), so I was unsure whether my provisional became the defacto ball in play or I still had the option to take the drop. 

The way I saw it, i had two options: -

1. Declare my ball over the hazard but lost in play so play the provisional
2. Declare my ball as being in the hazard and take a drop

I am unsure if I can do option 2 having played a provisional 

Chris Perry

"As Chris was saying that this happened after a tee shot, he would then play 3 off the tee, then wouldn't he be playing his 4th shot?"

Actually that would only be my third as you get the option to replay the shot from the original position under penalty of stroke and distance

Wayne Santorini

David Marshall

But Chris, you didn't take that option. You said you hit a provisional off the tee. So any shot played after that would be your 4th. Like Lyth said you could have had the option to replay the the shot from the original position, which is the longest walk in golf, and is time consuming and frustrating for those behind.

The simple answer is to not lose the damn ball in the first place..You numpty   

David Lythgoe

Wow, quick replies.

You can't hit a Provisional ball for a ball that you think may be in a Water Hazard, you can only hit a Prov for a ball that may be LOST 'outside a water hazard' or OUT of BOUNDS.

You have to be vertually certain that a ball is 'Lost in a Water Hazard'. "A ball went into that area and there is a Water Hazard over there" is not good enough.

What Chris should have done was either:-

1. Played the Prov Ball for his 4th shot, or.....

2. Found his 1st ball in the Water Hazard, dropped out within 2clublengths of where his ball entered it and played his 3rd shot from there.

TheLyth

David Lythgoe

David

"Lyth..May I clarify something, please. Your reply stated   "If you find a Water Hazard (like you did) the first ball can still be lost or Out of Bounds and you could play your 3rd shot with the Provisional Ball."  As Chris was saying that this happened after a tee shot, he would then play 3 off the tee, then wouldn't he be playing his 4th shot?"

You found me out David, I missed one importent thing out. What I was meaning to say was that even though there was a chance that the 1st ball was in the Water Hazard, which Chris implies he didn't know it was there when he played the Provisional Ball, without any evidence of the ball being in the Water Hazard you can deem the ball lost and play the Provisional Ball and seeing that that ball was close by, it would be the 4th shot.

TheLyth

Chris Perry

"The simple answer is to not lose the damn ball in the first place"

Now I know what I'm doing wrong! 

I thought a provisional only became in play when your ball was lost IN PLAY.  As mine was lost in a hazard, then I could take the drop.  As I say, I'm not sure so I'm after clarification

Also, as the stakes were only defined at my side, does this mean that the hazard extends back infinitely?

David Marshall

Wayne Santorini

Chris Perry

Adrian Hope

"Having played a provisional and then finding my ball is deemed to be lost in the hazard, can I take the appropriate drop or do I have to play my provisional? "

you take the appropriate drop from the water hazard ! 

David Marshall

Chris..You say the ball was lost in a stream, defined as a Later Water Hazard, but you then say the ball went over these stakes and into the woods. Is this correct?

If so then there is no way your ball was in the stream, which is why the red stakes are there. The stakes don't define the woodland area only the hazard..i.e. the stream.

So if you ball went into the woods and you couldn't find it after 5 minutes, then your ball is lost. You therefore play the provisional ball, which will be your 4th shot.

No wonder it's confusing, cause first off you said it went into the stream, then you said it went over the red markers into the woods.

Wayne Santorini

Chris Perry

Dave - The red stakes were inside the tree line, which is why I didn't see them.  The ball went into the trees and when I got there I found red stakes about 5 feet inside the trees and a stream at the bottom of a ditch.  The ditch was about 8 feet down and 20 feet wide, with the stream being about 10 feet wide.  I pitched outside of the trees and I'm confident yet another of my balls has gone to a watery grave.  There were no red stakes marking the far side of the hazard.  

Santo - Yes my prov was further than where my first went missing.  I would have preferred the drop though as the green was still in range so I could have been on for 3.

All irrelevant though.  I played a provisional and then found out my ball was in a hazard.  Do I have to play the provisional or can I take the drop?

John Flood

Chris Perry

But rule 26 contradicts John

"....it must be known or virtually certain that the ball is in the hazard. In the absence of such knowledge or certainty, the player must proceed under Rule 27-1.  If a ball is a water hazard or if it is known or virtually certain that a ball that has not been found is in a water hazard (whether the ball lies in water or not), the player may under penalty of one stroke:"

I pretty certain that my ball was in the hazard, so does this mean I have the choice?

My head hurts!!!!

John Pettitt

Chris Perry

John Flood

Chris,

I'm basing my suggestion on your comment

I played a provisional and then found out my ball was in a hazard.

Chris Perry

Wayne Santorini

David Lythgoe

Chris,

A Provisional Ball is played when you think that your 1st ball may be lost outside a Water Hazard or Out of Bounds. This you did.

You then found that there was actually a Water Hazard in the area your 1st ball had ended up. No problem.

You then decided that the 1st ball was in the Water Hazard. You need to be vitually certain that it was. Finding it would have helped.

If it is DEEMED that your 1st ball was in the Water Hazard then it is not lost or Out of Bounds, so the Provisional Ball is now taken out of the picture.

If the 1st ball can't be DEEMED to be in the Water Hazard, nor can it be found then it is LOST and the Provisional Ball becomes your Ball In Play.

Hope this clears it up.

TheLyth

Wayne Santorini

Adrian Hope

Colin Coote

good morning Chris

let me put a different perspective on your observations.

from what you've described i would be confident to state that you  have definitely lost your ball and therefore your provisional ball comes into play and you do not have any alternative.

My reason of thought regarding this interpretation is the following,

you declared you were playing a provisional in case you had lost your ball (this also relates to losing the ball in any hazard), however, in addition to that you have to realise playing a provisional ball is also permitted to be played if you are unsure as to whether you have hit a ball into a hazard.  This provisional ball was your initial decision that also relates to your ball in the hazard whether you find the ball in the hazard or declare it lost in the hazard, it is an option available within the rules (as rule 26-1a states - play a ball as near as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played.)  You have clearly taken that option available to you within the rules whether you realised this option was available or not, so for you to further abandon your provisional ball and play one of the other options available to you near the margin of where your ball crossed the hazard and under penalty stroke, you will actually have played from the wrong place also and should incur a further penalty.

Regardless of whether you did or did not know your ball was in a hazard or not, you made your decision on the tee and that takes preference and becomes your ball in play unless you find your ball.

It is unfortunate you did not know the hazard existed.

The only time when the provisional ball does not become the ball in play and therefore cannot be used is if you find your original ball within the 5 minutes and it is not in a hazard and you declare it unplayable, then you have to return to the tee if you wish to replay from the position you played your last shot.

i think my above assessment makes sense and this is a little clearer than mud and helpful.

Wayne Santorini

David Lythgoe

Colin,

Sorry to correct you, but you said

"you declared you were playing a provisional in case you had lost your ball (this also relates to losing the ball in any hazard), however, in addition to that you have to realise playing a provisional ball is also permitted to be played if you are unsure as to whether you have hit a ball into a hazard.  This provisional ball was your initial decision that also relates to your ball in the hazard whether you find the ball in the hazard or declare it lost in the hazard, it is an option available within the rules (as rule 26-1a states - play a ball as near as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played.)  You have clearly taken that option available to you within the rules whether you realised this option was available or not, so for you to further abandon your provisional ball and play one of the other options available to you near the margin of where your ball crossed the hazard and under penalty stroke, you will actually have played from the wrong place also and should incur a further penalty."

Rule 27-2 Provisional Ball starts with a. Procedure and "If a ball may be lost OUTSIDE A WATER HAZARD or may be Out of Bounds................"

You can't play a Provisional Ball if you think your 1st ball may be in a Water Hazard.

TheLyth

Colin Coote

You state

(But rule 26 contradicts John

"....it must be known or virtually certain that the ball is in the hazard. In the absence of such knowledge or certainty, the player must proceed under Rule 27-1.  If a ball is a water hazard or if it is known or virtually certain that a ball that has not been found is in a water hazard (whether the ball lies in water or not), the player may under penalty of one stroke:"

I pretty certain that my ball was in the hazard, so does this mean I have the choice?)

let me clarify something here.

You may be certain that your ball could be no where else but within the water hazard.

the above rule is not a contradiction of any other rule, what did occur was that you made a qualified decision on the tee to play a provisional ball as you thought your ball may be LOST.  That decision was taken before you realised the ball had to be lost in the hazard.  However, rule 26 states clearly the 3 options available to you for a ball lost in a water hazard.  The decision of playing a provisional ball precedes any other interpretation of the rules if the ball is not found because  Rule 26 allows relief giving you the option of - play a ball as near as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played.  And in so doing if your ball cannot be found your prov.ball becomes the ball in play automatically, you are not given a choice.

Or alternatively you can understand the correct procedure as being, once you played 3rd shot off the tee that could only be classed as a provisional ball if your original ball did not stay in any hazard.  Once it is certain that your original ball stayed in any hazard your 3rd shot off the tee is your ball in play even if you can play your original ball from within the hazard without the need for any relief, you need to understand you took your relief on the TEE.  

if you suspect that your ball may have been lost in a hazard but you are unsure until you get closer DO NOT PLAY ANY OTHER SHOT UNTIL YOU ARE CERTAIN.  This will allow you other options if you then find your ball is definitely lost in the hazard. 

The principles of the rules of golf must be understood, 

question- when is a provisional ball not a provisional ball

answers on the back of a post card to golfshake.com

i hope that clarified the muddy waters a little

Darren Millichip

"I'm under the impression you can play a Prov ball upto the point where you believe your other is lost !!! but if the prov ball is passed that point and you play it, then the prov ball becomes the ball in play irrelevant to the 1st ball"

Wayne, i was under the impression that you can play a provisional ball whenever the rules deem appropriate but if you hit that provisional ball a second time then it becomes in play irrespective if you find the original ball.

 or to put it easier (for me anyway), i hit a tee shot into the woods and am not sure if i am going to find it, so i hit a prov ball which i duff it just passed the ladies (i know a common occurance for most ) then hit the prov ball again but it still doesnt reach the point my first ball went to. now this is the bit.... the prov ball became the ball in play after i hit it for the 2nd time even if it didnt go further than my original and even if i find my original.

am i right with this assumption?

Lyth a question for you response..

"You can't hit a Provisional ball for a ball that you think may be in a Water Hazard, you can only hit a Prov for a ball that may be LOST 'outside a water hazard' or OUT of BOUNDS."

Whilst playing a while ago 1 of my playing partners hit a tee shot left into deep rough but also there is a water hazard there, he decided to play a provisional

when we reached the spot where we thought his ball might have been we noticed that the rough was cut right down around the edge of the water, we assumed his ball had gone through the rough and with the grass being so short there was nothig to stop it going in the water and all 4 players in the group deemed the ball had gone in the water, he then dropped under rules and played from there, picking his prov ball up on the way to the green

was this correct?

Colin Coote

TheLyth

i realised my earlier explanation did not come across as i had intended and may have misled on playing a prov.ball.  That was not my intention or my actual interpretation of the rules.  Its just a bloody nightmare putting down in a post exactly what you are trying to express, if you know what i mean.  I know you can't play a provisional ball if you think you are in a water hazard, but what i tried to get over was that you can play a prov.ball if you don't know you are probably in the hazard but if you find that you have rolled or been knocked into the hazard you have options

Correct me if i am wrong here, but as i understand it, if you play a provisional ball because you think you may have lost your original ball adjacent to a hazard but you are not sure exactly how far the hazard extends and how close to the hazard your ball lay,  you then search and find your original ball and it is just inside the hazard you are entitled to Relief under penalty stroke because you have found your ball and so the provisional ball does not come into play.

I think

But claiming that you know the ball has a high probability of being in the hazard as it was clearly heading in that direction before you play another ball from where you last played the original, this ball cannot be a provisional regardless of whether you state is is only a provisional,  the new ball is in play under penalty stroke. Even if you find your original ball outside the water hazard it does not matter as it is declared lost in the hazard.  I think.

i am open to any correction of my understanding of the rules.

this discussion on this scenario is what golfers need to express, and learn the very fine line in interpreting the rules

Chris Perry

Darren,

One thing I am cetain of in all this.  You can hit a provisional ball as many times as you like.  However, once you make a stroke at it BEYOND THE POINT AT WHICH THE ORIGINAL BALL IS BELIEVED TO BE LOST i.e. closer to the hole than which your original ball is believed to be lying, then that becomes the ball in play. 

So in your situation, you top the first shot at the provisional, then hit again.  You then find your original ball.  As long as you have not made a stroke at your provisional when it was closer to the hole than your original ball, the original ball remains the one ion play and you pick up the provisional at no penalty

John Flood

Darren,

I think you can carry on playing your provisional ball up until the point where you think your original ball landed. If you find your original then you can carry on & the provisional is no longer in play.

I think the provisional becomes in play if you carry on past the point where your ball landed.

I think that's right.

Colin Coote

Chris Perry

You couldn't make it up.  EXACTLY the same thing happened again last night!!! 

It was on the other course at the same club.  Pushed a tee shot into the trees on a par 3, took a provisional, got down there and found red stakes in the trees for a ditch.  Grass was second cut length except inside the red stakes so I am positive that I was in the defined hazard. 

I took the drop for a lateral hazrd and played this ball, picking up my provisional

David Lythgoe

Guys,

It is because of the strict Ruling of the "known or vertually certain that a ball is lost inside a Water Hazard" that dictates the correct proceedure with regard to a Provisional Ball.

If you hit a ball towards a Water Hazard and it WAS "known or vertually certain that the ball had entered a Water Hazard" you can't hit a Provisional Ball. It's in the Hazard so you know where it is.

If you hit a ball towards a Water Hazard and you are not sure where it finished and it may be lost outside the Water Hazard, you can hit a Provisional. Then when searching, you can't locate the ball, then it is difficult to get a "known or vertually certain" Ruling because there is equal chance that the ball was either IN or OUT of the Water Hazard.

TheLyth

Colin Coote

yep, spot on TheLyth

If you are not sure the ball in either in or out of a hazard and you play another prov.ball and the original cannot be found the prov.ball becomes the ball in play after you have declared the original ball LOST.  

But had you known or virtually certain the ball was in the hazard then you decide on the tee whether you play another ball from where you played your last shot under penalty stroke and this ball becomes the ball in play, or you walk down to the hazard and hope you can find your ball with a better than expected lie, or take relief under penalty stroke as per the rules.

what we golfers need to realise is that you don't really want to be playing 3 off the tee if you can help it si it is in our best interest to know where those blasted hazards are located on the course. 

What i understand is that you cannot claim to play a provisional ball knowing that you are in a hazard and believing that this ball will not become the ball in play until you have played a shot at this ball when it is nearer the hole than your original.  That 2nd ball is your ball in play under penalty stroke and you have discarded the original as lost in the hazard.

Gary Hand

Colin Coote

very good observation Gary

golfers need to assess where there ball actually is and whether they could reach the hazard at all.  You really do need to know what certain and uncertain means

Gary Hand

Had this this weekend the captain played in 4 ball behind the captain and he sent a guy back for exactly the same thing.

On the 15 a dog leg left  you play a blind tee shot over a fairway bunker probaly 200yds carry about 260yds see's you in the hazard as this is the very edge of the fairway on the dog leg. The guy went over the bunker and his ball was not on the fairway he then proceeded to look in the hazard but made the mistake of looking outside off the hazrd for his ball for a few seconds just to check it had not gone in before declaring it in the hazard.

Now the captain queit rightly siad if you are lookin there you are not 100% certain your ball is in there so you have to declare it lost or find it now. A bit of gamesmanship by the captain maybe as he was on agood score to but he was totally wothin his rights the bloke then had to return to the tee after looking for a while and play again.

Moral of the story if you are certain it is in there then only look in the hazard and if you don't find it in there take a drop but chanceing your arm hoping it didn't when it did will get you in real trouble.

Colin Coote

Process of elimination is a justified excuse for looking for a ball outside of a hazard.

length of grass between the hazard and fairway and whether it is fair to assume that you would find your ball easily if the ball is in it. 

Just because you may look for your ball outside of a hazard does not mean you cannot be certain the ball is in the hazard.

if you know the ball flight was without question going toward the hazard and you are capable of hitting the distance in the present course and weather conditions, you are entitled to look for 5 minutes before making a declaration of where your ball must certainly be lost. 

Without knowing the hole on the course it is hard to give a definite assessment of the incident.

Had it been me playing i would have taken close attention to exact direction and distance the ball would most probably have travelled.  Also ball flight and course and weather conditions, and then decide later where the ball had to be lost, without this precise knowledge it is difficult to be certain where your ball must be, but just because you look outside the hazard that only confirms the ball is not where you have looked.

Learn to follow the right procedures and then stand your ground knowing yourself you are certain through process of elimination that the ball has to be in the hazard etc.

Alan Gunnigle

David Lythgoe

Guys,

It is "A QUESTION OF FACT" that a ball hit towards a Water Hazard is in it. It has to be "KNOWN OR VIRTUALLY CERTAIN" that a ball that has not been found is in the Water Hazard. These are the Rules.

The problem is how much does it take to be "Vitually Certain"? Here the Captain wanted 100% proof.

Over the years I have come to this conclusion:-

Sunday Knockabout = 50%

Club Comps = 75%

Team Matches = 85%

County Comps = 95%

Pro and Amatur Tournaments = 99.9%

If this Captain wants to apply The Rules to the letter, he needs to apply it to them all, and unless he is a Top Rules Official with either The PGA or R&A he won't know be able to do that. There is always a chance that a ball you think is in an area, actually isn't, however small that chance is.

TheLyth

Colin Coote

you can only be 100% certain if you see it yourself go in and not come out.

if you take the word of anyone else as to whether the ball is either lost inside or outside the hazard there is always a doubt as to whether taking advice off these people is always going to result in them being 100% correct.  could it be confirmed that it was your ball they saw go in the hazard?  etc etc etc

the problem you have is when you do not see the ball go in the hazard. That is why you need to know the ball direction, flight, distance and most probable area your ball is going to be in.  You also need to know that for your ball to not be in the hazard it is beyond any doubt that you would have actually found your ball outside of the hazard.

However, if the water hazard lies adjacent too or in close proximity with Out Of Bounds it provides you with 2 options, and therefore you cannot be Virtually Certain.  The same could be said for an area that contains many rabbit burrows for example. 

What would be the ruling then? 

You cannot be certain whether you are Lost in a hazard or a burrow!

Adrian Hope

Gary Hand

Of course it should be there that's the whole point of it, this is in actual fact an extremely very well thought out posiiton for the hazard.

This hazard turns quiet a short dogleg hole into thnking hole do you blast it over the bunker and risk losing your ball for a 125 yd shot to the green or do you lay up to the right of the bunker safely and take the 180-200yd shot into the green it's risk reward and how all golf holes should be options off the tee not just blast it down the middle on a straight up par 4.

The point I was making is not that the hazard is in a silly place but if you don't  see a splash then by rights your playing partner can be as anal as he wants and send you back to tthe tee. Obviously common sense would prevail as Lyth says 90% of the time but some people are all about winning and if your are serious competition to your playing partner by the letter of the law he can if he wants send you back.

Colin Coote

Gary, i don't want to sound argumentative, but, your playing partner does not have the right to send you back.  It is not his call.  It is your own call.  He can challenge that call.  You have the option of playing out the hole with 2 seperate balls, Play 1 ball by going back to replay your previous shot under penalty and play out the hole, and also play another 2nd ball under penalty from the Lost ball in the hazard.  Then get a ruling after you have completed the round to see which ball counts.  You need to inform your playing partners of what you are intending to do.  This is the best option when you disagree on how to proceed

Every incident should be treated individually and in its own right.

In my opinion you do not need to see the splash, all you need to see is the ball going directly toward the hazard and knowing your shot will easily travel to the hazard.  As i stated previously if there is nothing else adjacent to hide your ball without doubt then you can be virtually certain the ball is Lost in the hazard.

Just make sure there are no other alternatives to where your ball could be lost.