Forum > General golf topics

Ray Lawlor

So what in your opinion is the hardest shot in golf?

Mine?

When the ball lands at the front of a bunker on the downslope.

It's happened to me that the ball rolled slowly into the bunker and stoped 3 inches past the front lip. There was no chance of getting a club head down and into the sand in front of the ball without thumping the grass.

I had to bite the bullet and come out sideways.

Care to contribute your headache shots?

Wayne Santorini

I don't have any hardest shots Ray sorry, if my ball had landed in the bunker like yours I'd have played out sideways in which case it wasn't the 'hardest shot' because it would have come out like yours did.

What i think you are asking, are situations where the lie of the ball prevented you from going for the green or at least sending the ball greenwards.

If that's the case Course Management would prevent you from putting your ball into impossible situations and it's a factor that so many golfers want to play the "Beast" from the Tee and then moan when the ball isn't where they believe it should be, but taking a lesser club and putting the ball on the fairway is the right way to then go for the green allowing you the possibility of at least Par if not birdie!!!!!!!

Christopher Watmore

Ray Lawlor

Aw man! I four putted (after a GIR) on the 17th a few rounds back and had to hope to make birdie on the 18th and my competitor doubled bogeyed...

I made the birdie (Achievment in itself) but my competitor slow and steadily played up the middle with a 7 iron, then 7 iron again to within 30yards, then pitched close(ish) and 2 putted for a bogey...

(So I think Wayne has te right idea!)

Russell Middleton

The situation you described Ray isn't really a problem.

Your ball is positioned so that you cannot make a normal stroke towards the hole, so therefore you have to come out sideways, which you did.

Bite the bullet and carry on with your game, and try not to put the ball in the bunker again!  Remember, either put you ball onto the green or lay-up short of the bunkers.

My problem shot is probably the same as you mentioned, only my ball would be far enough into the bunker for me to make a swing.

Nothing worse for me than being in a bunker but on a downslope.

Nine times out of ten I would get out, but the ball wouldn't be anywhere near to where I wanted it to be.

Russ

Chris Waterworth

Darren Ramowski

Adam Smith

Paul Williams

Ball in a divot is easy Darren, Just make sure you hit down on the ball and play through the divot.

For me, Its usually an approach over water No hard shot but I convince myself its going in the drink and usually does just that.

Like most of these difficult shots its all in the mind

Darren Ramowski

Robbie Allison

Hardest shot for me will always be the next one - concentrate or it will bite ya....

Paul Williams

Steve Cowle

Hi Guys,

Generally I find the tough ones are when you get stuck in trees or a bush and you have to contort your body to make some sort of swing just to get back in play.

I love the imagination of the game though, at tour school one year I missed the green on a par 3 and was right against a tree only 5 yards from the flag. Going sideways was going to be tricky enough. In the end I hit the ball against the tree with my SW and it richochet on to the green about 12' from the hole. I was so excited I then 3 putted-doh!

ps I have just updated my website so you can follow my progress throughout the year. (sorry for the blatant plug)

www.stevecowlegolf.co.uk

Dave ley

Philip Endell

Hmmm...

Off the tee with a driver, any shot on the fairway, short game around the green, putting.

Any/all of the above at present! 

Ray Lawlor

Actually I've given this more thought and I've realised the hardest shot for me is that awkward 30-50yard shot into the green.

If i'm 90-100 it's a simple case of hitting my PW an 80% or 90% swing, aiming for the centre of the green and leaving myself 2 putts.

But that wee 30 yarder shot where I'm in two minds whether to lob it in with my 60degree or the strong chip and roll with the 8 iron.

Obviously (look at my handicap) I can't use my worldclass spin skills, nor can I really judge how the ball will roll on the longer grass if I manage not to land on the green and roll.

One of the best examples of this is that infamous shot on the 18th at the open by Padraig Harrington.

(Can't be that infamous since I can't find it on YouTube - well I thought it was good, anyone else remember it?)

Wayne Santorini

Ray you need to practise a technique by Dave Pelz, it's called the 3x4, basically it's 3 distances with each of your 4 wedges.

The idea behind it is that in the normal set of 14 clubs per set, and of those 14 you have 11 clubs to get you from 300yds to 100yds, but only 3 to get you from 100 to the pin. By increasing the amount of wedges and creating 3 different length swings (7.30pm, 9pm & 10.30pm) with each wedge you then have 12 distances for the last 100yds which makes it easier to get the ball closer to the pin to 1 putt.

John Pettitt

I can understand your theory on this method, Wayne, but that is making it just mechanical.

100 yards in is judged, not by yardage but  by feel and instinct as to what club to play, what flight is intended and whether or not the ball is to run out or check.

I cannot for the life of me wonder why I should need to know the distance to the exact yard from within that range, in actual fact I am not really interested in the yardage as a be all of end all, at all.

I use four wedges and each have their part to play within my game, but I could just as easy use one wedge for all the distances from zero to 100 yards.

I feel that the secret is to not complicate an easy shot, just to impress.

David Marshall

Wayne Santorini

When amateurs have played as much as you have John then I agree feel comes into it but to help them initially (and with confidence) it's good to know what shot to hit because if you don't commit to it then your body will bail out and you'll more than likely cock it up.

Having confidence in the shot and knowing that you won't send the ball too far past or come up short is half the battle.

Steve Cowle

Have to agree with Wayne here. Most amateurs coming to me for short game lessons have problems thinning or fatting,this is generally down to fear of the shot and so they manipulate the swing by using their hands to scoop the ball in the air.

By using distance control swings your focus is on the swing rather than the ball, if you set up correctly and swing your hands to certain positions and let the club do the work then the shot will become more consistent, if it then breaks down you can check your set up or hand positions on the follow through. Generally if these are wrong the shot will be bad.

John Pettitt

Sorry to disagree with you two professionals, but learning a set swing for a certain distance will not reproduce the same shot every time for differing reasons, into the wind, following wind and firmness or softness of the receiving green. All of these knock your theory into a cocked hat and only a feel for the distrance will produce the necessary swing weight to apply to the shot.

What do I know though, the game is taught mechanically these days.

Watching the golf channel last night with a pro giving so many contradictions when attempting to say that Nicklaus' swing was perfect yet his dynamics would not be taught today.

Steve Cowle

It will be interesting to know if you have tried these techniques yourself John, I have been using this technique for years now with very accurate results. My main distance control swings are 60 yards and up, as I get closer to the green there are a lot more changes and yes I do take into account all that you mention above.

I have a shot that lands 30 yards with three different clubs and depending on how I want the ball to react on landing depends on which club I use. When I get closer than this then imagination and feel will take over as there are so many ways to play each shot, it all comes down to practice and preferance.

With regards to the average player just starting out or higher hcap then the distance control technique is definately the quickest way to learn, I have many pupils that can testify to this.

Patrick Bourke

 Re from 100yds out, I've got to go with JP on this one (and until you actually hit 20 shots in a row to the exact yard from 100 yds then the need to know the exact distance is beyond me). Lets be honest (Steve C excepted) we're hoping to put it in the hole everytime but the reality is that if we are somewhere near or thereabouts ie 10 yds then it's not a bad shot. All the rest is rhetoric or wishful thinking.

 As for the amatuers comment from Wayne and Steve: absolutely agree but I thought the the thread was about hardest shot not how to avoid a duff shot. That's what the practice pitch is for. My tip: if you're not confident with your high wedges on a particular day then use your 9 iron. 

John Pettitt

Steve, I have tried all the techniques that have ever been invented in my lifetime and at one time I considered myself to be very adept in short game ideas. This was how the game was played when I first started.

The difference between us is that I have never needed to know how far it is. 60 yards means nothing to me, I use my eyes and all the other methods of assessing the shot in hand and then play it with the necessary feel that has been inbuilt in my game for over fifty years. I just decide whereabouts on the green I wish to pitch the ball and then proceed to execute the shot I have decided upon.

You are without doubt a very fine player and have very strong views on how everyone else should play the game. My views are just as strong, and though I never turned professional when I had the ability, it does not mean that my method is inferior to yours. You have to make a living at it, I don't.

I am sorry if you feel that I may disrespecting the professional advice, but I have just spent half an hour watching  video from David Ley on the Stack and Tilt method. I was falling asleep as it was a very poor demonstration by the professionals, so had to give up.

Golfers come to you for lessons, paying good money and hopefully you manage to help them. I do the same for free and all the pupils I have ever taken under my wing all made single figure handicaps.

David Lythgoe

From an old Pro's prospective I have to agree in part to both views.

We only use one Putter for putts from 40ft to 4". We learn to swing it at different lengths and speeds to achieve that, so that is no different to the 3x4 idea. But we also learn to "feel" the putt and work in breaks and slopes.

Teaching the short game can be done in many ways and it is when you know ALL the methods that you are at ease with it.

TheLyth

David Lythgoe

Here are three views from three era's when a Pro is stood over a shot of 170yds.

MODERN DAY - So its 168yds to the pin.

SLIGHTLY OLDER - So its about 170.

EVEN OLDER - It looks like a 6iron.

TheLyth

John Pettitt

Lyth, I am afraid I am in the "It looks like a six iron" bracket, as you knew I would be.

My point about the method advocated by both Wayne, Steve and now yourself is that saying that the length of the swing dictates the distance is, in my honest opinion, not strictly true, because I can play a full swing wedge that will travel any distance I want it to and likewise I can play a half shot the same distances. 

Advocating the same strength of swing with different swing lengths is not the way to go to learn how to judge these very tricky distances.

I go back to the throwing of a ball, it is instinctive and the correct weight is applied without even thinking about it. I use the same philosophy when playing these kind of shots. I just cannot approach this part of the game with mechanical thoughts, Sorry.

Wayne Santorini

John there is always "more than one way to skin a cat" and for some the idea of feel will be the best, and for others knowing a length of swing coupled with the loft will inevitably sit easier with them also. I have to agree with "TheLyth's" last sentence;

*Teaching the short game can be done in many ways and it is when you know ALL the methods that you are at ease with it.*

Confidence in your ability to execute the shot, is the most important part for a lot of amateurs, how you do it!! is as individual as the person but if your confident and get the result then it works for you and that's all that matters.

John Pettitt

Confidence in your ability to execute the shot, is the most important part for a lot of amateurs, how you do it!! is as individual as the person but if your confident and get the result then it works for you and that's all that matters.

Where does that fit with your 3 x 4 then Wayne.

A certain length of swing with the loft of the club is entirely dependant on the weight that is applied. Weight is feel.

Lewis Gladstone-buchanan

As a beginner I started off using the clockface method....but found that I was thinking too much on the back swing and I duffed quite a few shots. I now just spend my time with 6 balls just going for the green from different angles,lies and distances. All I'm trying to do is just get used to my clubs,arms,swing and the results. I try to keep it simple with the basics correct.

 This seems to be working for me with my accuracy and confidence getting better as time goes by. I practice this way more than in the range hitting balls.

This is just how it is working for me...and we are all different and some things will work better for other people.

And to be fair....I've not tested myself in a competition enviroment.....it may all fall to pieces and I'll have to learn a more rigid way that will work under pressure.....who knows.

John Pettitt

Wayne Santorini

In fits in with whom so ever gets the best from it John quite simply.

I personally don't use it (not aware of it anyway) but I know my swing length will differ at different distances so am i using subconciously??? either way I'm fairly happy with my game right now and will seek to fine tune this year for even better accuracy.

Lewis Gladstone-buchanan

David Marshall

It will be very soon Lewis...April 12th to be exact. You will be playing with top class players. 

Admittedly they will all be on the South Team. But at least you will get to see how the game should be played 

Wayne Santorini

John Pettitt

Wayne, you say that you are not using this method personally and I am glad, because this method is mechanical and will not do what it claims to do.

Your shots are subconcious, which tells me that you instinctively know how far to take the club back for the shot in hand and also the follow through is also used in this way to achieve the trajectory. When these two are added to the amount of weight one puts on the shot, then that is feel.

Have you ever played a high shot with very soft hands? Can you play a ,ow shot in with check? If you can then you will know that other things are coming into the equation, so a rigid lengtjh of swing to achieve a certain distance is absolutely ridiculous, but then, professionals have to make a living through their lessons and in order for their pupils to improve they have simplified, or broken this lesson down into a simple form, which belittles the difficulties faced with these shots.

I could never have told you the length of any hole I was playing in the old days as there were no 150 yard markers and the yardage meant nothing to me anyway.

How many of todays players can play the same shot with different irons, very few. Christy O'Connor Snr impressed me with his ability to hit every club in the bag onto a short hole. That is feel.

Wayne Santorini

I agree that "I" use feel in my way of performing any shot John but I can also see the benefits to many possible solutions being available for the masses out there.

You know well (as I do) that over time if your motivated to learn you will learn better by knowing what your doing wrong and how to correct it and you will develop your style along Feel, for many high handicappers starting with a different process is their best way and if they want to develop into a better golfer and are prepared for the input of effort then they too will move into the feel way of learning.

Some players have natural ability and some have to work at it, at the top level it's not a case of how they got there, it's that they are there and competing with the best.

John Pettitt

I agree with you, Wayne, all I am trying to say is that distance is not solely controlled by the length of backswing, many other factors come into the equation, so it is wrong to accept that method of teaching as gospel. I certainly don't.

Newcomers to the game tend to hit everything flat out as they think that the distance is everything, so when they need to be able conjure up shots that require less forced effort, they are lost.

Obsessiion with yardages is holding back improvement in a lot of players, in my opinion. No one knows exactly how far the shot they are about to play is going to travel, it is just a tool to give a rough idea as to what club to use.

After all, we all see the top pros on TV, pace out from bushes, consult their caddie, discuss what club to take, then change there mind and put the club back for more consultation and then pick the original club and hit it through the green.

This why the players of yesteryear were in a league of their own, they had the ability to look at the target, consider the strength and direction of the wind, the firmness of the greens, then decide on the way they were going to flight the ball to achieve their aim, without even considering what the yardage might be. I know this because this is how I have had to play golf throughout my lifetime.

Darren Millichip

i think the toughest shot in golf

a bunker shot with leaves all around, for some reason this type of shot keeps haunting me

Andy Bailey

In my very limited experience the tee shot is always the hardest for me especially if i happen to be up first because i suppose everybody you are playing with has nothing else to do but watch you lol

Hello to everybody by the way  

Andy 

Wayne Santorini

Simon Bale

Andy Bailey

Stuart Govan

Any chip round the green is the one I find hardest (no matter which way the grass is growing!), because I've played so many bad ones it's a mental thing now.

David Marshall

Can't believe I am saying this, but here goes.

I will gladly try to help you Stuart 

Hello Andy...Welcome to the nut house 

Paul Williams

Going soft in your old age David????

I DONT BELIEVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!

Wayne Santorini

Stuart Govan

Bournemouth Syndrome in his case Wayne.

I will take any help on offer David, especially as such kind offers from you are so rare. Does this offer include a set of balls for the week?  I'm sure if I could tidy up my short game I could get down to nearer ten.

Wayne Santorini

Loud Mouth b.a.

I personally consider the hardest shot in golf to be any shot which, one is aware in advance, that  if not properly executed there is no way back into the competition.  An iron strong mental game then either kicks in, or alternatively one collapses. ANY type of shot becomes immensely difficult when one is under the cosh. 

Conversely, a technically difficult shot can be quite easy if one is aware how to play it and there is no great amount of pressure.    

Alan Essam

Matt Simmons

Hardest Shot???

Teeing off with three blokes you have never met all watching. Bloody nightmare. Especially when you have only a vauge idea of where the shot will go.

John Pettitt

You hit a good shot off the first, Matt, just not long enough, like mine to see the green.

I hope we didn't intimidate you as we like to think we are a friendly bunch.

When you realise that you don't have to make any pars off your current handicap and then play the sensible way that I showed you then you will find that the scores will come to you. You have a pretty sound swing, that is powerful, but your course management leaves a lot to be desired at this moment in time, but I am sure you will soon get that handicap tumbling.

Chris Perry

John Pettitt

David Marshall

Gerard Keeley

ALL OF THEM

David Ferris

a draw i'd have to say as im a natural fader. probably cos ive never gave it any sustained practice as ive been to busy concentrating on turning my fades into straight shots which ive started to do really well now this last while. think ill go back and practice till i can draw the ball because theres a few holes ive played where a draw from the tee would be the ideal shot.

also im not great at bunker shots as my local wee course doesnt have any so its not a shot i get to practice much but the course is currently being revamped and on the front 9 which is currently closed as they are still working at it a couple of pons and loads of monster high fronted bunkers have appeared so i should be getting plenty of practice at them soon enough

Ray Lawlor

I'd revise my opinion on this and say that my toughest shot is on a mad lie - ball above feet on an uphill lie, or ball below the feet on a downhill lie...

But all your points on the mental end of the game - being asked to play through etc... are so true...

A tough shot: The hardest par three. There are three balls already on the green and the pressures on not to stick it in the water/trees/bunker.

Mally Grief

Alps .

At the moment for me Im struggling with those 3-4ft putts.......oh and also with those 15ft+ putts !!  however i think the hardest shot overall is the first one off the first tee, this is when everyone is watching just wanting you to mess up, talk about pressure !!!lol