This is a link to a Hogan vid showing loads of clips of his swing....It's a great vid with some good music. But how easy does he make it look!!!!  and some of the shots go like bullets !! Look at the shot at 1:07 - I see things like this and do wonder how a man with such natural ability and understanding through self learning would do in the modern game. Tiger will prob go down as the best ever.....but will anyone get close to the wonder and mystique of this man's swing?

When I look back at my swing compared to this....I feel like my swing is made up of 17 different planes and that I need to oil up my joints

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNgMNK3CtWU

Thats fantastic.. I could watch that for hours..

One of the comments from a user struck me

"Do the thought experiment of Ben Hogan on the practice line next to TW with those swings...instead of playing for second best, this guy means business(1:00).

It's almost a shame he obtained such perfection on courses pros today would refuse to play on (1:46)...

It adds up to this: what he accomplished and the level he achieved in such times is even more remarkable, esp. given his injuries. TW is shattering all the golf records, but this is one man that in some ways cannot be surpassed."

I'm so new to this game I've only known about Hogan for a couple of months....but for me he really stands out!

sec 55......amazing shot !!

I keep on watching it

None better to base your game on Lewis. He was a great player and would be the one to beat in the modern game as he used to hit GIR consistently.

I have a DVD of him playing an 18 hole match with Sam Snead on a course measuring over 7000 yards in Houston, Texas. He hit every green in regulation figures, something which is so rare these days that when it happens it is almost front page news.

A good example of a man who figured the swing out for himself; nobody worked harder than Hogan.

Must admit he sure was hypnotising, such a sweet swing

I put this clip through CSwing to check out his form...............he was very good !!!!!!

but one thing that stood out was that at impact his shoulders and hips are very open.....in some instances he is nearly facing completely forward at impact!!

Is this really a good thing to try and do? I think I have the opposite problem where by I don't start the downswing with the knees/hips so I go over the top on the downswing - but surely you can go too far the other way.....can't you?

It worked for him Lewis, which is all that counts.

May work for you too, or it may not.

but one thing that stood out was that at impact his shoulders and hips are very open.....in some instances he is nearly facing completely forward at impact!!

Lewis, I suggest you slow the swing down and stop it at impact and you will find that he is closed at impact, or the worst square.

David L's avatar is at impact and nowhere looking like shoulders open at impact.

The speed of the swing through the ball is deceiving you.

0.05 is a classic, as is 0.36

not to make too much of a point of this....and I wish we could put pics into our post so that I could show you.

 I've put the video clip through Cswing2008 and went through it frame by frame and whilst yes it does vary (quite alot actually) at impact he sometimes has his hips basically facing forward at impact, and his shoulders are more than just alittle open....these seem to be on the swings where he is really going for it

I changed my avatar with a screen grab of what I was saying, I put hip,shoulder and ball flight lines on it also. If it isn't very clear then you can see it in my profile media

Doesn't show Lewis - try uploading the picture to imageshack and putting the link here.

Hogan was open at impact, both hips and body are open to the target.

NO he wasn't, jonny, right elbow is still way inside the left arm.

The placement of your right elbow has no bearing on whether your body is open or closed to the target John - especially when they are bent like hogan. You know this.

Photos do not lie.

Interesting photo that does not tell the whole story to anyone who does not understand the basics of shotmaking. This is the 13th (Azalea) at Augusta and Ben is playing from the right had side of the fairway/rough which you should well know will give him a lie with the ball above his feet, so, like any really good player he has compensated for this in his set up to minimise the risk of pulling the ball left.

Bob Rotella will not tell you this, jonny.

Just a few links that might help you understand.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mim0HFI/is653/ai86204865/

http://ww
w.golftoday.co.uk/proshop/tuition/lesson3.html

http://www.articlesbase.com/golf-a
rticles/5-golf-tips-on-driving-better-off-the-tee-989934.html

And the camera angle is not directly behind and between him and the ball!!!!!

the camera doesn't need to be directly behind to determine line angles......whilst perspective will play a small amount of tricks on the eyes, not so much here.

I think John.P may be right as to why he is so open.....a ball above the feet creates a draw effect, so opening up the stance and holding the club face open through impact will help keep it straight to the intended target

John, Butch's cure for a slice doesn't mention whether Hogan was open at impact.

Look at this animated gif, it clearly shows the body and hips have rotated open - you can even see the left shoulder at impact where as you can't see it at address.

Wayne - this one is right down the target line if that helps you view it better.



Link

I had no problem viewing the original one Jonny

You need to go to specsavers, jonny, that animated gif shows nothing of what you are saying it does. The shoulders have not moved out of line at all. Put your cursor on his right shoulder and you will see that it stays dead square.

 if nothing else...look how the club is in the exact same position/plane in both frames !!!

Draw an imaginery spine down his shirt - if you don't notice that you can see the left side of his shirt appear in the second frame you need to go back to school, becasue the only way you can do this is by turning left; and Hogan turned left harder than anyone.

Interesting that your comment complements today's Thought of the day (17/11/09) Lewis

.....that's purely coincidence Jonny, I haven't read the thought of the day today yet!

It is a waste of time attempting to discuss something that should be obvious.

Strange as though it may seem, the arms are attached to the shoulders and when both hands are on the club the unit is one. This means that the path taken by the shoulders has direct bearing on the doirection the hands are being swung.

In order for the ball to be hit straight then the shoulders must remain square to that path, what they do after impact is just a ntural progression of the swing.

Any movement causing the shoulders to open on the downswing is immediately changing the path of attack through the ball and cannot possibly hit a straight shot.

John, the problem with your theory is that golf shots are not straight, they are either left to right or right to left, no matter how small the deviation, a straight shot is nigh on impossible.

Google the book Science & Golf: They studied 51 PGA tour players back in '94 and found that address position and impact position are not the same. They claim on average the hips AND UPPER BODY are 20 degrees to 40 degrees more open at impact.

Tiger is correct here as well. No wonder he is a great player.

At impact they are all square and at the pace of the swing it is obvious that the impression they are open is because once past impact then the right arm has to pull the right shoulder open.

Tiger has not moved anything apart from his arms and hands through that clip I have just posted. Still perfectly square even fractionally past impact.

I look forward to our next game where you can demonstrate to me your new top half of the body open at impact, is this the secret to your rapid improvement into single figures?

John, the problem with your theory is that golf shots are not straight, they are either left to right or right to left, no matter how small the deviation, a straight shot is nigh on impossible.

Of course golf shots are not perfectly straight and that is because we, as humans, are not able to repeat exactly the same movement each time when we swing. Those who do it the best are the best players. The plane of the swing is bound to vary fractionally every time we swing and of course that will mean that the clubface will not always be 100% square at impact but because of the path, a fade or draw will be the result. The extremes of course we see on the course everytime we play with the higher handicappers slicing pretty badly. If only they could keep square at impact.

Tiger has not moved anything apart from his arms and hands through that clip I have just posted. Still perfectly square even fractionally past impact.

John, this was about Hogan being open at impact - I agree Tiger less open at impact, but he is still a degree or two open in a lot of clips I have; most pro's are.

Here are a few more - Crane and Badders - ps: a great swing there.

Tiger swings it very differently to Ben, so they are going to be very different at impact. Tiger's body slows down and he likes to get his arms and hands infront of his chest to square the club - this is something he has spoken of many times.

Hogan had his arms further behind this line becasue he kept his right elbow close to his hip through the downswing and rotated hard left to square the club.

Old school teaching was all about square shoulders, but now we can put sensors on a player we have seen that most are open at impact - that is my only point - I have no view on what is a correct or incorrect method.

I look forward to our next game where you can demonstrate to me your new top half of the body open at impact, is this the secret to your rapid improvement into single figures?

Ignoring this type of detailed analysis of my own swing is the only thing I have changed about my golf swing and as a result I hit the ball much better. I am not bogged down by trying to hit certain positions or get my limbs in certain places and funnily enough the swing flows a bit better as a result. I am not aware if my own shoulders are open or closed at impact and it's not a position I strive for.

Look forward to playing you again as always!

I give up.

Hogans main weakness in the early days was a viscious hook and he practiced very hard to eliminate this working on a firm left wrist at impact. ( Hogans book 5 lessons-only swing book you need to read, might have to work on the flexibility to acheive certain positios though)What the videos don't show is what shot they were trying to play.

If I want to hit a soft draw from a square stance I will keep my right shoulder back more, to hit a fade I open the shoulders. Slight adjustments can then be made with the hands to either close or open the clubface.

You will see a lot of top players doing this on course in order to get to different pin positions or adjustments made for slopes and wind.

If I want to hit a soft draw from a square stance I will keep my right shoulder back more, to hit a fade I open the shoulders. Slight adjustments can then be made with the hands to either close or open the clubface.

Steve, do you do this by only aligning the shoulders for the shot you want to play or do you do as I do by opening or closing the stance to whatever degree of draw or fade I am looking for which automatically aligns the shoulders for you.

I notice that you said that you also make adjustments with your hands which tells me that you have a feel for what your swing is doing. I used to hit an open stance draw which required feel for where the club needed to be to achieve it.

Lewis, like you I am in awe watching Bens swing. The thing I find most common of all the greats of the past (and a lot of present) was the very smooth tempo of their swings. To my mind, the tempo of the swing is one of the most important aspects. If one could master that, then one is well on the way to lower figures in my opinion.

It is one of the main areas I intend to work on this winter (along with putting!).

Paul,

Mr Hogan's swing and life story are absorbing.

My swing with my bigger clubs is the first thing in my hobby so far that I feel is holding me back..... I need to sort out my downswing sequence and timing. I think if I could get an average good swing I would cut 10 shots off my round easy. My first group of 7 lessons is over and they helped me loads to get started, I'm now thinking after next payday I'll need to get 3 or 4 lessons purely on getting my path from the outside to the inside and starting my downswing from the knees/hips up instead of my right shoulder.

Strangely my putting is the one thing that has been good from the get go, right now it is only 2 or max 3 times a round I three putt, a few times I've never three putted. All I have is a very cheap Wilson putter that came with my beginners set.

My putting is what has helped me stay under 100 most times so far.......no if only I could stop the slices with 3 and 4 iron and my woods.

Oh and I've yet to develop good feel around the green......but that will come with practicing

But how good is that video clip at the start of this thread???!!!!!    I keep on watching it!!!

Hey John, When I am looking for subtle movements I tend to just use my hands through the shot, this is generally enough to get the ball spinning the correct way on landing.

As my swing path is pretty neutral it is easy to make these fine adjustments. When playing a game I will generally aim at the middle of the green and then shape the ball one way or another towards the pin. The only time I fire straight at it is if I have 9 iron or less in my hands or if there is not too much danger off the green where the pin is cut.

It would be interesting to know everyones view of where they aim when they can reach the green, is it at the pin or the middle of the green. This year I had a pro friend of mine aim at the centre of every green regardless of where the pin was. He said it was the most stress free round of golf he had ever played. If there was no flags in the green where would you aim?

In response to your shot shaping using body alignment, then yes I do this, but only when I have to move it 10 yards or more such as round a tree.

As my swing path is pretty neutral it is easy to make these fine adjustments

My swing (now after my course) is in-to-in, and yes I can hit a straight shot, my alignment and grip determines the draw or fade needed.

It would be interesting to know everyones view of where they aim when they can reach the green, is it at the pin or the middle of the green#

I now aim for the centre and have found the last 5 rounds have resulted in better scores by far, however I have to add my short game has improved by 100% after knowing what I was doing wrong!! and it was to say my short game that kept my handicap artificially higher than it should have been.

Since reading T.J Tomasi's book "30 second swing" and the importance of pin prick aim (again taught on the course i did), I now fear no hazard or predicament when I executethe shot needed, I use the rule "can i hit this shot 90% of the time" if I can't i club up and therefore play a more control swing.

In response to your shot shaping using body alignment, then yes I do this, but only when I have to move it 10 yards or more such as round a tree

I find that aligning my body on the path of the swing (but the cludface towards the target) works for me as I long as I keep the face open for a power fade and obviously rotate the arms for a power draw.

Lewis, a good swing tempo comes into play even more with the longer clubs. My biggest problem is letting the club do the work it was invented for. The longer the club, the harder and faster I seem to try and swing it. At the moment the longest club I use is my 4 hybrid off the tee, in fact most times I use my 5 or 6 iron to tee off. Even with these mid clubs, there are very few par 4's I cant reach in 3 shots and very few par 5's I cant reach in 4. This has resulted in me controlling my swing tempo so much better and also helped me reduce my handicap.

My short game is reasonable as I practice my small pitches and chips in the garden quite often.

My one piece of advise to any fellow high 'capper or new beginner is to forget distance and work on timing and accuracy. The distance will increase automatically as you progress.

Very true Paul.