Hi,

I recently played with someone who had a skycaddie....GPS device.

I was very impressed with the product and i can really see the advantages of using this type of product for the someone who is serious about golf. Although the price is a huge negative.

However i was just wondering what peoples experiances or views were. I guess they have the marmite touch(love em, hate em). Given the crazed marketing and gimic approaches of golf manufactures today i really can see these becoming a standard piece of equipment for most players in years to come and wondered whether i am alonein that thought.

Has anyone got a similar product, are they as good as they seem ?

hi Oli

cant see the point of them myself (im sure others will disagree) but Id rather spend the cash on a shiny new club lol

I guess they are helpful if you are skilled enough to perhaps attack the flag etc - i dunno- im just happy hitting the green and then praying for a 2 putt all the time

 

The main benefit that i saw from it was that you actually get the yardage to the front back and middle of the greens enabling you to hopefully hit more greens, taking the focus away from attacking the flag on every approach.

Plus the yardge to carry hazards etc.

I still havent made my mind up on them but feel that the extra information cant harm. However it is pointless knowing this info if you cant put a swing together to take advantage of it.

Thanks for the reply

One of the courses that i play has them built into buggys so ive used them on my more lazier rounds.

Im still in to minds about them, on one hand im a techno freak so i can see the plus points and where it would help your game (Hazards, pin yardages, carries etc) . But on the other hand, i think that it takes somthing out of the game (call me old fashioned) as knowing your yardages and being able to read the course is a skill in itself. 

Having said that i honestly think that its going to be a standard feature in the comming years.

Also What does the rules say about them? just out of intrest.

Unfortunately, Danny, the rulemakers, in their wisdom, have deemed them legal.

i belive they are legal on the provision that they only provide yardage reading.

Some are now programable to read inclines and height variations, others can sugest clubs based average shot recordings etc etc. These additional facilities are all deemed illegal.

Having just checked the rules.

These GPS devices are allowed for general play. But not in any form of competition.

The R & A has ruled that scores shot using a GPS system are permissible to post for handicapping purposes. However, under the Rules of Golf, the use of the GPS system in a competitive event would be prohibited.

Thank you, David, for that up to the minute info.

I only have 1 comment.

 

I've used the GPS Buggy devices which are very useful for knowing the hole and the possible hazzards. 

 

I've only used them twice and that was when playing in our Company Golf Days and don't know the course. 

GPS Devices are Legal in Competition John and David just that Comittees must make it a Local Rule. Trouble is the 'Old Mind Set' comittees aren't warming to this useful and beneficial technology so most aren't allowing it. Fortunately all clubs near me do.

The PGA have recently annouced they are going to allow them in all Professional Competitions from this day forward as in tests during the last few months have shown they help to dramatically improve speed of play. And with Slow Play being a big thing at the moment anything that can improve that is being well suppoorted and recieved by the games governing bodies.

I've been using the SkyCaddie since September and think its a great tool and everyone I've played with has liked it and enjoyed the benefits of the device. I recently just got a SG2.5 model as its a bit smaller and more compact meaning it intereferes less during the swing when clipped on my waist. Plus its faster and more accurate then earlier models.

Our club has GPS on the buggies so I suppose it must be allowed at our place.

I don't think they speed up play at all, it is the length of time some golfers stand over the ball, rooted to the spot for what seems an age, before they actually hit it. This also spreads to their times on the greens, whether it be a 30' or 30". Then you add in the leaving of the trollies in the wrong place around the green and the slow amble up the fairways.

 

I have frequently seen people pacing off distances from sprinkler heads or 150 markers. I can certainly see that it would help speed up this type of play.

I also agree with you John, that no matter what gadgets come out it isnt going to eliminate the 15 practice swings that some people see necassary or the baffling pre shot medatation that some adopt.

 Chris, what model did you use before the SG2.5 ? I take it that you are happy with accuracy and amount of courses that have been mapped ?

Chris...

You may have the rule back to front. The R & A Rules 2008 - 2011

The devices are illegal, but the committee can deem their use acceptable ?????????

Rule 14 - 3 Artificial Devices, Unusual Equipment and Unusual Use of
Equipment
The R&A reserves the right, at any time, to change the Rules relating to
artificial devices, unusual equipment and the unusual use of equipment,
and to make or change the interpretations relating to these Rules.
A player in doubt as to whether use of an item would constitute a
breach of Rule 14-3 should consult the R&A.
A manufacturer should submit to the R&A a sample of an item to be
manufactured for a ruling as to whether its use during a stipulated
round would cause a player to be in breach of Rule 14-3.The sample
becomes the property of the R&A for reference purposes. If a
manufacturer fails to submit a sample or, having submitted a sample,
fails to await a ruling before manufacturing and/or marketing the item, the manufacturer assumes the risk of a ruling that use of the item would be contrary to the Rules.

Except as provided in the Rules, during a stipulated round the player
must not use any artificial device or unusual equipment, or use any
equipment in an unusual manner:
a. That might assist him in making a stroke or in his play; or
b. For the purpose of gauging or measuring distance or conditions
that might affect his play; or
c. That might assist him in gripping the club, except that:
(i) plain gloves may be worn;
(ii) resin, powder and drying or moisturising agents may be
used; and
(iii) a towel or handkerchief may be wrapped around the grip.
Exceptions:
1. A player is not in breach of this Rule if (a) the equipment or device
is designed for or has the effect of alleviating a medical condition, (b)
the player has a legitimate medical reason to use the equipment or
device, and (c) the Committee is satisfied that its use does not give the
player any undue advantage over other players.
2. A player is not in breach of this Rule if he uses equipment in a
traditionally accepted manner.
PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 14-3:
Disqualification.
Note: The Committee may make a Local Rule allowing players to use
devices that measure or gauge distance only.

I think they will take away the skill and fun of the game. The skill required to judge distance is  learnt over long periods, like an apprentice learns his trade. Satisfaction and praise from fellow competitors on a perfect shot will be lost, beacause this gadget told you how far to hit the ball.

This will create lazy golfers who will not be thinking about playing the game and course, they will  just be looking at the gadget to chose their next Iron.

The fun of playing a new course is not knowing whats round the corner, it makes you think about your shot, do we want each course to provide us with a fly by video of each hole at every Tee Box?? - It may happen, then we will see how slow play is.

Technology is great but lets not take away the fun and banter between us when the wrong club is selected, this is a game of fun. We are not going to make the ryder cup team this year, so what's it matter if we under estimate the front of the green by 10 yards?

We may as well all go and play indoors on simulators, banging the balls onto a projection screen.

 

I might have this wrong here.. But if the R & A say the use of such equipment is illegal, then why can a committee ruling say they can be ? Therefore if an outlawed driver is banned by the R & A, could the Committee then make it a Local Rule that you can use them?

Surely this is crazy. Either they are legal or they are not. Why make it so ambiguous ?

David see your own post:

Note: The Committee may make a Local Rule allowing players to use
devices that measure or gauge distance only.

The R&A Rulebook you quoted states the Committee may make a local rule to allow artificial devices to be used if they wish. If you look on Page 140 of the Rulebook Item Number 9 the R&A even tell the clubs what wording to put into the local rules. A GPS is no different to a strokesaver or course planner except its more accurate and a lot faster. Only devices that are illegal are those measuring wind speed or direction, temperature, elevation. Pure distance measuring from point to target is not illegal.

At the end of the day they must now be legal as the Professional Golfer's Association are allowing their use in all Professional and Amateur Competitions that they run.

To answer Oli's question, before I got my 2.5 I had an SG4. I've found the SkyCaddie system to be very good so far for mapped courses. Every Course I've played in this country is on their and everyone I've played in Spain and Portugal are too. So much better then using Strokesavers or Course Planners to play. Really is great abroad as you can leave the measurements in yardages to keep things simple. The thing I've really enjoyed about the unit is it lets me see how far I'm hitting my clubs, so I can keep a good yardage check on all my clubs. Right now its telling me I'm losing distance with all clubs, probably because I'm not hitting it right, but at least I'm not kidding myself that the ball still is going my normal distance.

Chris..

2 points if I may.

The section that I highlighted RED in my previous post states

b. For the purpose of gauging or measuring distance or conditions
that might affect his play

To me that says that a device for measuring distances (i.e. GPS) is illegal.

The you say that a GPS system is the same as a Strokesaver or Course planner !

The GPS system gives you exact precise measurements, whereas the strokesaver and course planner booklets may tell you the distance and the layout of the hole being played, but unless you know exactly which part of the fairway you are standing on, or pace them, in relation to the booklet you could be several yards out. So how can a GPS be the same?

My main point though is. How can the R & A deem them illegal, but allow a Committee to make a Local Rule basically over ruling the R & A and saying they can be used?

Ask the R&A then David. I'm sorry but I read the rulebook the same as you and it does sound like it contradicts itself. But I think the use of these devices is becoming more and more common and with the Pros using them now they'll get more attention. So maybe by 2012 the R&A will have them legal from the start and not have the committees making the final decision. The only other thing I can think of is that when the rulebook was finalised and sent to print the results from the testing of these devices wasn't in so the R&A was still on the fence somewhat about them, which is why the rule is written the way it is.

The GPS system gives you exact precise measurements, whereas the strokesaver and course planner booklets may tell you the distance but unless you know exactly which part of the fairway you are standing on, or pace them, in relation to the booklet you could be several yards out. So how can a GPS be the same? 

Okay maybe they aren't the same but similar. The GPS is just the evolutionary step of the yardage book/strokesaver/courseplanner and is far more accurate and detailed then the books. The main advantage is the speed and preciseness of the measurement. No more pacing about, trying to work out which tree a measurement is from or how much to allow extra for being on an angle. I think these devices will be great for saving time. In the Pros events last year where they were used every group completed the round inside the recommended time. Some groups were over 30 minutes inside the recommendation. I know Pros are better equipped to use that information then any of us, but if it saves groups just 5-10 minutes a round that'll be a benefit.

I agree Chris...

But what I am trying to get at is. If the R & A publish The Rules of Golf, and then say that the Committee can alter the rule, then it is not a rule at all.

Next they will be saying. These are the R & A rules, but if you want to play by another set of rules, then you can.

 

Because the rules go on to say   (c) the Committee is satisfied that its use does not give the player any undue advantage over other players.

So my argument would be. Unless everybody in a competition has one, then yes it would give the player using one an unfair advantage. 

I started to read your post Dave, the you added different colour text nd I got confused and lost the will to live.

Is that better now?

Still to many wordy things.

It's not my fault that The R & A ramble on. Rule number whatever, subsection b and d with clause e & g thrown in for good measure just to confuse the issue. Then Decision blah, and then Note pooh bah.

Chris,

 Did you change to the SG2.5 for size over function.

I have noticed that a SG5 version has just been released by cant see any extra funxtion over than a colour screen which in my eyes doesnt justify the extra money.

Just hoping that you could shed some light with regard model preference as you have experiance with them.

SG3 and SG4 are identical units, only difference is the SG4 has a built in rechargeable battery. SG3 and SG4 are quite bulky units really think back to 1999 Mobile Phones they take up some room and are quite weighty. Noticeable when clipped on your waist. I also happened to find my unit was always a bit slow at aquiring signals when turned on so the '10 Minute' start-up process really did take that long. Also Depending on the Strength and Quality of Signal being received the yardages quoted by the units could vary a little. Think this is due to the units not having an external antena. I also found the connective means of hooking the units to a PC or to the mains for charging to be a bit cumbersome with the cable and screw system.

Then the SG5 came out which was a much slimmer and lighter unit with a colour screen and now recently upgraded to show 3D Graphics. A Colleague got one of these and its operates much quicker on start-up and when moving, very fast response by the GPS Receiver and it doesn't seem to be effected by sudden signal drops, still reads the same information. Which is good means you can trust the device which is he problem I had with the SG4. The connectivity is made simple by a USB inteface which also doubles for charging so much easiser now no more fiddly wires and connectors with a screw.

Then just last month Skycaddie launched the SG2.5 which is a smaller more compact version of the SG5 without the colour screen at a great entry price of £169. Function wise its exactly the same as the SG5, so unless you really need a bigger unit, bigger screen and a colour display you might as well have the 2.5. Both myself and my colleague Pete got these a fortnight ago and we've both used them for three or four rounds now and just can't fault their ease of use and the information they offer. I love the fact the unit can hang on my belt and not be noticeable or interfering when I'm swinging.

A few points around GPS they are in fact as exact or precise and accuracy is limited to a few yards.

On top professional tours the pros often do not use your standardscourse planner yardage books but professionally prepared very detailed course planner/yardage books. These have an amazing amount of detail must more than your standard course planner available from your pro shop(I have anb example from the last ryder cup and it is nothing like the standard K club course planner).  In adition for each round they information as to the pin position location in yds on the green.

The R&A suggests the follwing wording for permitting use of distance measuring device (this is contianed in the latest rules of golf publication).  Yes they do speed up play, so are a great idea.....

9. Distance-Measuring Devices

  If the Committee wishes to act in accordance with the Note under Rule
  14-3, the following wording is recommended:

  “(Specify as appropriate, e.g. In this competition, or For all play at this
  course, etc.), a player may obtain distance information by using a device that
  measures distance only. If, during a stipulated round, a player uses
  a distance-measuring device that is designed to gauge or measure other conditions
  that might affect his play (e.g. gradient, windspeed, temperature, etc.), the
  player is in breach of Rule 14-3, for which the penalty is disqualification,
  regardless of whether any such additional function is actually used.”

Hey David here's a reply from the R&A regarding how GPS Devices can be against the rules yet allowed by a Committee:

Dear Mr Watmore Thank you for your email of 8 March concerning distance measuring devices.As you are aware, the use of distance measuring devices during a stipulated round remains contrary to the Rules of Golf, however, a Committee can permit them via a Local Rule - see the specimen Local Rule at Appendix I, Part B.The ability to allow such devices by Local Rule is no different to that of other Rules that allow something that the general Rules do not, e.g. embedded ball through the green , winter Rules, etc. It is considered appropriate to allow individual Committees the ability to decide whether to employ such Local Rules. Yours sincerely

KEVIN BARKER
Assistant Director - Rules
The R&A, St. Andrews, Fife, KY16 9JD, Scotland
Tel. +44 (0) 1334 460000   Fax. +44 (0) 1334 460003

 

Still any the wiser? I'm still going carry on using them, don't see whats wrong with it. If its good enough for the Pros its good enough for me.

Thanks for that Chris.

But here is where the rules contradict themselves, when they say this:-

the Committee is satisfied that its use does not give the player any undue advantage over other players.

Therefore unless all the players are using them, then there is an unfair advantage.

 

Having trawled though numerous golf sites, it seems apparent that there are only relatively few Tour Competitons that allow their use for the moment.  Time will tell no doubt. 

I must admit that I've been thinking of buying a GPS for golf, mainly as I'm dreadful at judging distance. It has come to the point that I try to lay-up at the 150 yard marker, as at least then I'll be sure how far I am from the green!

Up to now I've been looking at the SureShot GPS, but it is rather expensive. Chris's comments on the SkyCaddy 2.5 has me intrigued, but I'm curious how it deals with doglegged holes; I'm also a little concerned at how few courses that I play are actully mapped with this product.

Cheers

Keith

Keith,

One point that i may make is that the Sureshot is not aloud in any competition as it has the function to suggest what club to use. Wether a local rule has or has not been passed it is illegal. This is my undertsnading, i could always be wrong.

I am in a similar situation to yourself, i.e im considering buying one. If you look on the following website you can search all of the courses that they have mapped(relating to skycaddie). I am playing in a society match at a course that wasn't on there so i emailed the company to ask what the process was. I received an email later that day stating that the would do it within the week. The kept to their word and had it mapped within 3 days. I havent even bought one yet but was quite impressed by the service. I assume this is part of their justification for the price and annual subscription price.

I believe that the Skycaddy doesnt have a birdseye view of the hole, but purely provided distance hazrds on the hole, carry distance for each hazard and front middle and back distances to the green, irrelevant of approach angle.

Sorry, forgot to add the link.

 

http://www.skygolfgps.com/

If you asked me the yardage of any hole on my course I cold not tell you as I have never looked. I stand on the tee, no  matter what course it is and take in all that I need to know for the first shot, when I get to that I use my eyesight again to see what my options are and proceed accordingly, it might mean  a lay up short of a lake, or a shot to one side of the fairway to allow an easier shot for the next, and if I feel that I can reach the green without having to force it then I will take it on.

John,

I guess that is one luxury that you can afford given the fact that you know this sport better than most people will in a lifetime,

Dogleg Holes on a SkyCaddie are very simple as it'll give you yardages to the end of the fairway at the dogleg and other points on each hole and it'll suggest a yardage to use as a layup to navigate the dogleg. I.e. It tells you how far to hit the ball to leave yourself a view of the green.

As for the number of courses mapped these are being added to all the time. You can always speed up the process for your local courses by requesting them to be mapped via the SkyCaddie Website.

I have issue 82 dated March 2008 of the "Tee Times" magazine and on page 24 there is an article which is headed "Electronic rangefinders get the go-ahead Magic Eyes are legal in PGA events.

It then shows all the different makes including the sureshot and skycaddie, even their latest model which comes with 'IntelliGreen' TM as standard, allowing players to view all aspects of the green from any position.

Whether this ruling is going to apply to amateurs or not I do not have a clue especially after reading the email to Chris from the R&A.

Chris...This letter/e-mail you got from Kevin Barker. 

I would reply as follows:

As you are aware, the use of distance measuring devices during a stipulated round remains contrary to the Rules of Golf,
  however, a Committee can permit them via a Local Rule - see the specimen Local Rule at Appendix I, Part B.The ability to allow such devices by Local Rule is no different to that of other Rules that allow something that the general Rules do not, e.g. embedded ball through the green , winter Rules, etc.  This is the bit that gets me confused. The rules state that distance measuring devices remain contrary to the Rules of Golf..   Then he goes on to say that Local Rules are there to allow something that the general rules do not.   My argument would be that the general rules do not allow the use of distance measuring devices. This is quite clearly laid out in Rule 14 a & b
  It is considered appropriate to allow individual Committees the ability to decide whether to employ such Local Rules.

 Then how do the R & A get around this rule? 

the Committee is satisfied that its use does not give the player any undue advantage over other players.

 

Try sending this off to Mr Barker and see what response you get 

I don't buy into the argument that it gives players an unfair advantage over those who don't have devices. You could make the same argument for the latest £300 Driver thats just come out. Not everyone will have one so is it right to stop those who have bought one using it? Why punish the people who are embracing new technology and trying to make an effort to improve their games and their scores. As I said earlier for me its no different to having a course planner in your hand or a buggy with the screen in it. Its just the next step forward and in a few years these devices will be as common on the course as tee pegs.

That argument is the same we got last year at another club in the area. They'd gone to the trouble of having the course mapped and setup for GPS and then wouldn't let members with devices use them. Their committee felt much like you I guess David that not everyone can afford or not everybody wants a GPS Device so therefore those that do have them must be punished.

The guy I was with put back a good argument of his own and said that members of the committee wouldn't have a problem spending big money on a Driver or a Set of Clubs if they were told it would change their gave, give them more distance or speed up play. When in actual fact they probably wouldn't make any difference to their games at all. However with a GPS and the knowledge of how far you have to hit a club to reach a target and how far you hit your clubs, you will almost certainly play better, play faster and possibly score better.

Having read Mr Barker's email a few times it does make more sense. There are so many rules in the golf book that committees can overrule to make playing better. As he says the implementation of winter rules being the example he gives.

I am with you, Chris, on this as I have seen these devices in action and quite honestly they do not appear to help the average golfer. The reason is that even though a player may know the distance he hits the ball on a nice calm day, he does not know how far the club goes in a 10mph wind, a 15mph wind or even a thirty mph wind, as well as all the different combinations in between and directions of the wind.

I would rather play with the method I have always employed and that is to judge the distance with my eyes, not by yardage, but by the club necessary to do what I intend. That might be a variety of different scenarios depending on how I see the shot.

From what I have seen of my friend with all the gizmos including a sureshot is that the only knowledge he gains from it is the distance, his problem being that he cannot hit any club a consistent distance, or play a shot weighted to the conditions at the time, he just lacks the feel.

I am all for new technology Chris. But remember back a few years when technology made drivers that supposedly made the ball go further. Then they got banned!

The winter rules is a necessary implementation, as it is fair to all and does not cost anything and does not rely on artificial aids. So to compare one with the other is not correct 

John I see and understand your point. Only the most consistant golfers will really take full benefit from the GPS devices. However even some not as consistant yardage wise should have the chance to know the exact yardage to a target or to clear a hazard so with that information they can make a better judgement of what to do.

An example of this would be the people I played with in Saturday's medal they said everytime they get to 16th Hole they go for the flag with say a 7 Iron and usually finish in the Pond. I was able to show them that to reach the front of the green they'd have to hit the ball 153 yards and its 149 yards to carry the water. The courseplanner they were using or the yardage marker on the tee quoted 144 yards. That to me would be the middle of the big double green, not specifically the 16th. With that information these guys realised they were completly wrong clubbing the hole and in fact realised they would have to play safe to the left of the water with their club selection. With a 7 Iron they played left onto the bigger putting surface, took the water out of play and then had a long putt but at least a chance of making par. With more club and confidence they could probably take the flag on next time.

I'm not the most consistant striker of the ball at the minute myself however these devices give me the information I need to make the alterations. Usually for now thats taking more club to make sure a bad shot won't be too much short and a good shot if I hit one will only be a bit long, which is rarely a dangerous place to be. When I get my swing going again and can use the information much more accurately then I'll be laughing.

I'll admit I struggle to judge distances by eye and this saves me a lot of hassle and as opposed to a course planner I don't need to waste time debating if I'm reading the distance of the right tree or the correct part of a mound or something. Plus the intelligreen system orientates the green to how I would see it from where I'm approaching from. Great for knowing how much green you have to work with.

I happen to agree with John. Often I will even ignore the on-course yardage markers. All depends on the conditions and how I feel I am hitting the ball.

I won one in a comp' and use it in the driving range now and again, but on the course.. never. To me , its me against the course any help working round the rules of golf is just not golf. The rules should just ban them on the course, FULL STOP.  

the pros have used gps systems for years.  they use caddyaid which gives the huge amounts of info that pros want.  it's also the dearest i've seen.

for ordinary mortals the gps should help speed of play and boost confidence and that improves your game.

sureshot gps was warned against because it has facilities built in which are not permitted, even if turned off.  guess golfers are not trusted after all.

in my opinion the r and a  should have said either yes or no and not sat on the fence.

progress happens - clubs,balls etc.   deal with it and move on.

i am biased as i just bought a skycaddie 2.5 and even on my own course it has given me some different perspectives.  my opinion - it will be ratified and one day we'll wonder what all the fuss was about

rant over

That's settled, I'm gonna get myself one, rather than a shiney new driver. I can afford to hit the ball slightly shorter off the tee with the equipment I have (Ping Ti), and have accurate yardages to the clear the bunker on the right, or to the front/centre/back of the green where the shots are picked up or dropped

After careful consideration, I feel that a GPS system would give less help and direct advice than a professional caddie.  If the R&A feel a professional caddy is OK, then I feel so should a basic GPS system.

I also fail to see how a GPS such as the SureShot, which can advise on a club choice, is any different in advantage than a professional caddie ..… who do that but to a higher level also (they know the course like the back of their hand and will also take into consideration the weather and any ground elevations).

So I have bought the SkyCaddie2.5.  At the end of the day I still have to hit the ball and make the shot, I am totally on my own with that.

Cheers
Keith

how much are these contraptions?

I got my SkyCaddie SG2.5  from American Golf for £169

completegolfer.co.uk sells the skycaddie 2.5 for £159

American golf at irvine also at this price.

they are v.popular and selling out quickly

I know I could get them cheaper (though £159 is a very good price!), but I was in the store and impatient.... the money was buring a hole in my pocket.  I nearly walked out with the new Nike Sumo2 5900 as well, but I resisted.

To anyone with a Skycaddie unit purchased between November 2007 and March 28th 2008, please be advised that Skycaddie are recalling the Power Adaptors that came with the devices. Apparantly there is a fault that causes them to get excessively hot and then pose a fire or electric shock risk. So charge your devices using the USB cable and PC Method until they contact users and offer a replacement charger.

Just looking at buying a Sky Caddie 2.5 but my local course isnt on the list and neither can I find it on the request list. Any ideas how I can request this before I buy or maybe someone could tell me if I'm just stupid and College Pines Worksop is on

Hi Mark,

Once you buy the device and register it, you can ask them to survey any course for you and they usually complete it within a couple of weeks. I know this because I went through the very same process to get a couple of courses mapped (West Malling's two courses).

Cheers
Keith

Only place I can't get them to Survey is Woodhall Spa. Apparently that course won't allow itself to be mapped. Despite being the National Home of the PGA, and seeing as how the PGA are the first to push the boat out and allow GPS in competitions, it seems odd Woodhall is being rather tetchy about being mapped by the Official Rangefinder of the PGA the Skycaddie.

Okay folks, here's my two pennies worth.

I don't disagree with people going and using these on the course but if you can only use them when it states you can, is it really worth it??

As the R&A state, a Committee can permit them via a Local Rule - see the specimen Local Rule at Appendix I, Part B.

I have to ask this following question:

Would you only play golf under  "preferred lies" if you preferred to play like that. There are going to be (lets face it, most of the time) where you are never going to be able to play preferred lies. So why get used to playing a way and then not being able to play like that more often?????

I non comprenda!!!!

I will always play golf the same way (yes WS, not good) but at leasat I know wherever and whenever play, I will be within the rules of the game.

Would you carry 16 clubs around with you on a weekend game with your mates and then forget to take out the extra 2 for the competition game you play the following week???

Too much like hard work for me. Use the tools that are agreed by the R&A and play by the rules. If an amendment is added to be governed by the local committee, then surely that shows it is not going to be accepted 100% of the time. I don't see how this type of equipment would make you feel that you had beaten the course and succeeded where no other previous golfer had, when you realise you may have saved 3 shots in a round.

Referring to Mr Perritt's previous statement, I would like to ask this:

"Can you guarantee you will always be able to use the GPS or can you guarantee you will always be able to use your eyes?"

I for one, don't need to charge my eyes and can't forget them. So I choose to use the old fashion method of using me to battle against the course.

Happy golfing! 

Hi Dave, thanks for your comments (you ol' traditionalist you). Please read the following in the good will and good humour in which they are intended:

We have to remember that the rules of golf change every now and then, whether we like it or not (or whether we agree with them or not). My 81 year old Dad who has been playing for over 40 years is astoinded by some of the other rules which have come out this year.

GPS's are within the rules if the rules are followed correctly.  Any course that allows itself to be GPS mapped or has their own GPS devices on their buggies are therefore in my opinion allowing the devices to be used within the rules of golf.

Another way to look at it:  these devices are offering far less help and advice than a professional caddie.  Ban caddies totaly (including on Tour) and I'll side closer to your argument against GPS's.

It is also worth mentioning that the new rules appear to say that I can now discuss with anyone on the course the yardages to points on a golf course whilst playing the hole; whether they are my playing partner, my opponent or a man who happens to be walking past with a dog on a lead.  So again how is a GPS offering me any greater advantage than that? 

At the end of the day, no matter what a GPS or a caddie (or passer by with the dog) tells you, it is down to you to pick the club and make the shot. 

I think we should focus our attention on players who play miles outside the rules rather than arguing over something that is new and a little left of centre. i.e. Playing balls OOB, dropping balls back into play when it went OOB, or dropping a new ball at the point where a ball was lost .... all instead of playing a provisional ball from the point of where the original shot was made.

And on a my final word ("thank God" you are no doubt thinking): I bet you like the rest of us follow and play by all the other local rules of the course whilst playing. Many of those local rules are either additional to the R&A rules, or in some cases going against the R&A rules.  If we wanted to, we could examine the first rule of golf and deem that local rules are actually against the R&A rules of golf.  Therefore if a course allows GPS's under their local rules, why should this local rule be seen in a lesser light than a local rule that says that you can take free relief under a certain situation which the R&A book says you have to play the ball as it lays.

Cheers 

 

Keith,

I have no quarms with your opinion, as I hope you did not have with mine. Let me just strengthen a couple of issues you stated please.

You stated "GPS's are within the rules if the rules are followed correctly.  Any course that allows itself to be GPS mapped or has their own GPS devices on their buggies are therefore in my opinion allowing the devices to be used within the rules of golf."

The only point I would make here is that I have yet to find a competition that will allow you to play in a buggy. I am under the belief that it is not allowed, R&A rules or local.

The other point is a well mentioned point about players who don't play by the standard rules ie don't play the "provisional" from the tee, if suspicion falls that the first has been lost.

If I am playing with mates or even just friendly, I will always allow for mulligans, non provisions and some times better lies. BUT if I was in a competition then it is a completely different matter. Rules are there to be adhered to when you are in competition. I hear you saying, well why can't I use the GPS then when not in  competition? Not my point, my point is why would you want to when you can't use it in competition (most competitions)?.

I will not buy into the GPS handhelds, although I did use a buggy with one in once and it was great. One step that would have made it even better, in my eyes, would be if you could programme in the distances you hit your clubs and then let it tell you which club to use, then maybe later, ask it to take the shot for you. Then, like all other sportsmen, we could blame our tools even more. :-)

Ole traditionalist yes, if that makes me boring or a pain in the arse, then sorry for that. But I enjoy making the decisions, guaging the distance, choosing the club and then hurling abuse at the club :-)

I wouldn't want another item to blame.

Happy golfing!

Perhaps a gps would help with your spelling of my name, Mr Doncaster.

Tell you something else John.

 

Earlier this same person criticised Colin for a spelling mistake. Yet he has made several.

Pot calling the kettle, and all that! 

Ah, there you see .... I've never played in a competition.

Must admit that I've not seen a rule in the R&A book against buggies.  Anyone else throw some light on this one?

I note with a wry smile on my face the irony of your comment that in a friendly game you allow Mulligans, non-provisionals and better lies.  But you are against a GPS in the same friendly because: "why would you want to when you can't use it in competition (most competitions)?."  Couldn't the same be said of the rule breakers you've listed?   ;-)

I too am a traditionalist, but I must be more of a pain in the arse than you (with respect): I don't allow Mulligans, non-provisionals and better lies (unless it is a local winter rule).  But I am also a dreadful judge of distance and my GPS helps me with yardages.  I still have to decide which club to use and how to make the shot .... often getting it wrong as I too am a high handicapper.

At the end of the day, I still want to know to what extent does a GPS give me an unfair advantage when compared to me asking my golfing mate the yardages (he is usually spot on) or a professional caddie knowing every blade of grass on the course and advising on which club to use and how to shape the shot; all of which is legal under the rules. 

Going back a bit, am I taking the game too seriously by not allowing my playing partners mulligans or non-provisional balls when out for a friendly game?   You've got me worried now Dave, but up to now I've viewed these rules in the same light as someone playing football and being allowed to score a goal by hand-ball.

Cheers 

 

Mr Pettitt,

I sincerely apologise for spelling your name wrong.

David, you Sh#t stirrer :-)

Keith,

I see no advantage over all. I feel I make the yardages right, just can't get the club selection right. I hit a club a lot less distance than I used too. I need to adapt for that.

As for the friendly games, just remember the title, "friendly". I am not competetive any more. I enjoy the game of golf immensely. I want the partner to enjoy it as well and aid that process by making the round less formal and more friendly. If giving my partner a couple of shots and him ending up winning by a couple of shots, then so be it. As long as we both enjoy the game. After all, if I told the wife I was going out with my mate for 5 to 6 hours for an evening drinking, she'd frown, but going out on the golf course with him is allowed :-) I intend to make sure we both enjoy the time. This is just my opinion and we are all welcome to our own.

My mate does not play consistent golf, therefore he makes a lot of little rubbish shots, I try to bring his head back up by letting him off s few shots. After all, we are there to enjoy it and we always do.

Happy golfing! 

In response to Dave's comment about buggies not being allowed in competitions. I have played in many comps using a buggie. Nothing wrong with them imo. Anyhow, we digress slightly.

I've commented before that a GPS system is just like having a caddie stood with you. It offers less information than a professional caddie has at his disposal, as he is given an additional sheet each day with the exact location of each pin on the greens, which is something a GPS device can't tell you. I myself own a SkyCaddie 2.5.

If it was illegal for a course to plant 150yd stakes, or coloured disks on the fairway at 200/150/100yds out, then I would agree that a GPS device was a breach of the rules and should be frowned upon, as all of us would need to use our eyes. But lets face it chaps, we can all use a yardage chart on a course, and these GPS devices are just more accurate and do all the calculations for you instantly.

If it is your opinion to be against this new technology then that's operfectly fine, but it is my opinion that they offer a slight advantage to a Strokesaver chart, and a disadvantage when compared to what pro caddies have in pro tournaments, that is all.

Jonathan,

I have never been in a competition where buggies are allowed. I used to be a club member and played many competitions home and away and they were definitely never allowed. This may be different at "local rules" regions.

As for the GPS, good luck to all that use them. I choose not to. I also choose not to trolley, that's through choice. I am not under the belief that they are making people cheats, just that I see no advantage to getting used to using something and then, like most technology, them not working at times and having to resort back to good old methods. This has always been my way. I don't use calculators due to believing the batteries may run out.

Good and Happy golfing to all those that wish to advance with modern technology.

Dave,

I am also unsure about your comment on buggy's not being allowed in comps. How would people with walking disabilities or those much older than us be able to compete???

I can believe this in a Tour event etc but not an amatuer comp??

 

John. 

I have a playing partner that is so against technology that he feels powered trolleys should only be allowed to be used by: women, senior players, frail or handicapped players. LOL

Perhaps my strict views on playing non-competition games stems from years of playing golf with my Dad whose attitude to golf is, all games of golf are competitions and there is only one golf rule book. But then again if I were to go to the park for a friendly kick-about with a football there is no way I'd stick rigidly to the FA rules; that would kill the fun aspect.

I think I'll take this quandary to the forums and start a whole new message string on attitudes to flexibility of the rules with 'friendly' games.

Cheers

I was surprised when watching the PGA the other week.  A viewer sent in a question asking why the caddies carry the bags rather than using a trolley.  I always assumed that trollies weren't allowed in professional comps because they hammer the grass flat.  However Peter Allis said they didn't use them because they were too awkward to manoeuvre with so many people around implying that there was not a ban on them.  Anyone know if this is correct.

On GPS it is not something I would ever use.  150 yard marker and a bit of pacing will do for me.  As someone else pointed out there are too many other factors like wind, lie of the land, softness of the ground that come into play to make exact yardages worthwhile.  Also while watching the PGA I was amused by one golfer discussing with his caddie whether it was 109 or 110 yards to the pin. 

I'm 100% positive trolleys are allowed. I once saw a PGA comp on the telly and one of the caddies was a small-framed girl, so she had to use a pull trolley to get the huge tour bag around the course. Peter Allis didn't stop moaning about it being a bad image.

Ive also seen lesser games on the telly where very few pros had a caddy, most were using a powered trolley or at least a pull trolley.

Cheers

I have caddied on the challenge tour and trolleys are widely used there.

 

I use an SG-5 sky caddie its only an electronic course planner . It can only tell you yardages so i see no issues with legallity, it cant help you swing the club.

It's a lot quicker to use than a course planner ,waterproof  more reliable than some maker posts ,which keep being moved by green staff when mowing,and then guess where it was when replacing it!Even with a gps gadget  compared to pro's  our course info  is miles behind theirs . We play a new course we play it as we see it with or without a planner,They on the other hand know where the pins are going to be for the four days, have practice rounds where they hit several different shots into each hole , putt from everywhere so they know the best place to land for for easier putts.Play week in week out on immaculatly prepared couses , greens and bunkers. Also Pro's are allowed to use range finders that give you exact yardages to pins a gps unit can't do that. 

 How can something that gives you the same info as a course planner be considered  illegal?? my thoughts are that it can't.

I must admit i probably  dont rely on it much on my own course but find it a god send on new  or infrequently  played courses.

I said it all along, the rules are stacked in favour of the tour pros. <shrugs>

I have had a Sureshot GPS unit for about 6 months, and i would say any make is very useful. The shame part, is that different makes have mapped different courses and they are not interchangable. Sureshot comes with a years subscription, other makes you have to pay for courses from the first time of using i think.

What are the benefits?

1. How many times do you wounder if the yardage marker is to the front or the centre of the green.

2. How many times have you stood there at a 150 marker, and said "no way is that 150"

3. They DO speed up the game, as you are not looking at score saver books or pacing out distances.

4. Score savers cost around £3, so depending how many courses you play, it will end up paying for itsself.

5. You can edit a course, so if the club has added a feature etc, you can put these in to the unit.

6. You can make out a course from scratch if its not already been done.

7. You get the distance from where you are at, which takes in the angle you are coming from.

8. Not all courses have good marker posts in the first place,  so trying to hit a green becomes a guessing game at times.

9. When you play a new course, it helps you understand where things are, rather than hitting over a hill, bot realising there is a ditch the other side.

10. If i'm honest, they save about 4 shots per round from my experience. The same as having an electronic trolley rather than pulling a cart or carrying a bag.

The bottom line, is they are now being used on the pro tour to speed up the game, as long as the club selection option is not on.

Allan

 

I'm thinking about getting one of these when I go back to the states next month and for half the price of the UK where I now live.  I just started to research this product tonight and am looking for information on the SG5 model.

 

But as I try to read through all this for information on the skycaddie device itself, I found more discussion of the rules, etc.

 

Why do pros go out with a yardage book full of notes and yardages?  They measure it right and use it in competition.  Most of us don't have caddies that walk around and measure these courses so I see nothing wrong with using one.

 

I am not a long hitter and rarely hit a tee shot over 200 yards on a good day.  So my second shot becomes even more important to know yardage because I know how far I can hit all my fairway woods (when I actually hit the shot I intend).  And most of the courses I've played in the UK don't have any markers on the course so I'm completly at a loss as to how far from the green I am on most holes. 

 

Anyway, back to my research.... 

Hi , I use the Shotmiser and find it terrific for exact yardage to the green everytime and extremely useful on unknown courses for distance to obstructions,trees,bunkers,streams etc you can even select your own point to measure too if you want to lay up. It comes with 100 courses of your choce and no annual charges. it even gives the distance and view if you happen to overshoot the green or are on the wrong fairway ( heaven forbid ) overall a very good buy and no annual fees. and they are totally within the rules of golf, unless your club has a local rule which are few and far between.

ive been using the shotmiser gps for over a year and found it to be very acurate and course download is simple, gadget stores around 30 courses at any one time and if your serious about golf and more importantly know your club yardages (lots of people dont have a clue) there an invaluable tool

I'm not fond of GPS much rather the laser range finders. Very accurate, and there's always the chance of losing signal on a GPS device which would get on my nerves. If you need layouts of courses then the course guide in the pro shops are a much cheaper option to find out carry distances but when it comes to attacking the flag got to be the Bushnell.

Where is the course you lose GPS signal on ?  it must be in a very built up area, with lots of high rise all around to block a signal coming from inner space, my sat nav is fine even in cities between high rise buildings when on a journey !!

As the hole is the ultimate target, I have always attacked the flag, when required, even without a GPS or a Bushnell. I cannot see how either of those two devices are essential to attack the flag.

Hi, The advantage comes when you measure 150 to the centre of the green, if you know you hit your 7 iron with 150yds of carry, there is no uncertainty in your mind as to whether you have enough club to reach the pin, so can just concentrate on making a clean strike and you should be adjacent to the pin. I used to think I could judge the distance quite well, but soon discovered I was wrong, with the GPS on my trolley even some of the yardage markers on the course were found to be  incorrect.It is still the mug on the end of the club that gets it wrong, but the GPS certainly made a difference to my game .as would a laser if I preferred it .

Martin, if you are happy playing the game with the help of these aids, then who am I to argue with you.

I just canot see any advantage in even knowing the distance, as I have never played that way in my life. I use the tools that all golfers of my years were brought up with,

The eyes are a great judge of distance once trained, my golf swing is not  constant in the speed or length but is geared to how I see each shot and how much weight I feel I need to get me the correct distance.

Being capable of playing a large variety of shots with an iron, I probably play the game entirely different to you, but I bet I get more satisfaction.

Hi Oli

New to golfshake.com and I have just read your post and I thought I would offer my two pennies worth into the mixing pot so to speak. I have used GPS on golf carts, which are no longer available on the courses I have played,  and I have seen hand held GPS's out on the golf course, but to me, they are only as good as the golfer using his tools of the trade of hitting a ball into the hole!!

My honest opinion is that the GPS is a very useful tool if you are going to a new course and you want to know what your chosen club will do on that course, but it is quite pointless to use on your regular course because you become quite familar with your choice of club to achieve your objective.

The other thing about GPS is the expence. Rather OTT!!! I would rather use my i-phone and download the program and use the device (minus the sounds!!) and have an inkling on how far I need to go to hit the fairway or the green.

Finally, the GPS, in my opinion, should not be used in any of the competitions you play in.

 

Hi Oli, I've just come back from Spain where all the markers were in Metres - doesn't seem like a problem add 10% to change to yards, but when marker posts say 100m and fairway markers (on sprinkler heads) nearer the green say 121m what do you do?? At home I use an app on my phone which when it locates a satellite is very good speeds up play because you can take a club to go that distance, it doesn't make you play better but it helps you relax because you know you're not going to be short or long, I'm in favour :-) PS. didn't use phone app. data roaming charges would be cheaper to by a dedicated gps device.

@Lawrence Lee, if you have unlimited internet usage on your i-phone account and you can download the softwre package, there is no charge, except maybe the loss of power to your mobile depending on the setting you pick!! The package I found on the internet, not only gave me the yardage to the green, but it also enabled me to log the score, calculate gir and fairways hit and tell me how many putts during the round I had. I used it the once so far and it has gained me 4 points already!!