Forum > Rules and Etiquette

Chris Perry

Yesterday we had a "debate" about this one and I can't figure out the answer from reading the rules. 

My second shot wasn't particularly good and rolld into some dense bushes.  I searched for a few minutes and due to fading light gave up and dropped a substitute ball which I played.  One of the guys in our group then found my ball 10 yards further back than I'd been looking. 

Am I right in thinking that as I had played the substituted ball my original is no longer in play and I am to hole out with the substitute? 

Wayne Santorini

**Am I right in thinking that as I had played the substituted ball my original is no longer in play and I am to hole out with the substitute?  **

No Chris, you go back to play the original ball.

it's your mate you need to sort out because if he hadn't found it you could have played with your provisional

Chris Perry

Actually I wanted to play the original as I overclubbed and put the substitute in the brook that guards the back of the green!!!  I insisted on playing the original, to massive calls of 'cheat!' from the brother-in-law, who also calls me a cheat when I swap between high and low spin balls depending on the hole lngth (but never during a hole).  We agreed to check the rules when we got home and I actually think he was right. 

HOWEVER, as I put the substitute into the brook, I did the right thing by playing my dropped original from the same spot for a one stroke penalty. 

David Marshall

Wayne...You are so wrong it hurts. !!!

As soon the club hit the provisional ball, that ball immediately became the ball in play. No matter if you found the original ball. The original ball is deemed lost and no longer in play. You would not be allowed to play the first ball, under ANY circumstances. What infact Chris should have done is go back to where the last shot was played from and played the provisional from there.

Oh Boy am I going to have fun with Santorini in the Algarve !!!!!!

That means all of your previous 999 forum replies etc. are now suspect..Only solution...

Start again from 1

Chris Perry

So the penalty is stroke and distance? 

So in my case, this was my second shot (after my only decent drive of the day) and I should have: -

1. Gone back to where I played the second shot from
2. Dropped another ball (for a one shot penalty)
3. Played the dropped ball as my fourth shot

Is that right?

Also, if I had played a provisional from the point of my second shot (before going to search) and subsequently found my first ball, I believe I could have picked up the provisional, as long as I had not played it after it had gone beyond my original ball with no penalty.  Is this right?  That's my interpretation of Rule 27-2b and the defintion of a 'Lost Ball'. 

David Marshall

By George...I think he's got it..!!

Yes to all of the above.

Depends also Chris, how long you take to look for the first ball. You are allowed a MAXIMUM of 5 minutes, after which time the ball is deemed lost. If you find it in 5 minutes and 1 second, then it is LOST. No exceptions.  AND  wave the group behind through when you start looking, don't keep the match behind waiting.

Cause if  I were behind you when all this was going on, you would end up with 2 black eyes and only the head of your driver showing....If you get my drift.

Also....Don't take any bull......t  from Santorini on 22nd.   He knows Diddly Squit !!

Chris Perry

Cool.  Now I'm starting to get the rules, now all I need is to learn how to play. 

Also, am I right in thinking that the five minutes does not include any time I take playing my provisional (classed as the 'wrong ball' if I find my original).  It's five searching minutes, not five minutes from playing the stroke.

Wayne Santorini

David Marshall

Chris..The instant you play a provisional ball, you are in fact saying that your first ball is deemed to be lost. Therefore you do not continue to look for the first ball.

You can look for the first ball for a maximum of five minutes. Then you play a provisional. But if you play your provisional ball, in say 2 minutes 30 seconds, then you continue playing the hole. And not continue looking for the first ball for another 2 minutes 30 seconds.  

John Pettitt

David is correct in everything he has posted on this topic with the exception of calling the ball dropped and elected to play "a provisional". It is not, it is the ball in play.

Once a provisional ball is deemd the one to played it is no longer a provisional ball.

A provisional ball is played before any attempts to find the first ball are made.

David Marshall

John...

Didn't I say that as soon as the provisional ball is struck, it becomes the ball in play ?

I mean for example, you might drop a provisional ball just as somebody finds your first ball. In that case you would be allowed to pick up the the dropped provisional ball, provided you have not played the shot, and play your original ball. Assuming also that this all takes place within the alloted time.

Or is that not correct ?

John Pettitt

This is what you said, David:

You can look for the first ball for a maximum of five minutes. Then you play a provisional.

A provisional is played before one commences to look for the ball, it is because it may be lost that one plays a provisional in the first place. So, by saying that once the five minutes is up that one can play a provisional, is incorrect.

You would be correct in stating that even after dropping a ball, providing a stroke has been made that it would be permitted to play the found ball, provided of course that it was within the five minuite regulation.

Once the time has run out or the player deems the ball lost, it is dead and buried and normally the player would have to return to the spot where the original shot was played from, thus losing stroke and distance, unless of course the ball is lost in a hazard where other rules apply for this situation. 

Chris Perry

So, if I have this right. 

1. If you think you may have lost your ball (including out of bounds), you hit a provisional from the same place as the original shot, but not unless you first inform the group you are playing with that you are doing so.  If you don't inform them, it counts as playing the wrong ball and you take a penalty stroke (and then have to hit another provisional). 
2. You may play the provisional until it reaches or passes the point at which you believe you lost your ball. 
3. You now have five minutes to find the first ball you struck.
4. If you can't find your ball in the alloted time or it is out of bounds, it is deemed lost and your provisional becomes your ball in play.  Your stroke count is now however many strokes you took at the provisional ball, plus the strokes you took at the original ball, plus one penalty stroke. 
5. If you find your first ball in the alloted time and it is not deemed lost, you pick up the provisional and play the original ball with no penalty.  This is because the provisional was not in play as your original ball was not officially declared lost - UNLESS...
6. If you take a stroke at the provisional when beyond where your ball was lost i.e. closer to the hole, then the rule at 4. above applies, even if you subsequently find it. 

I think that is it.  God these rules are more difficult the game itself!

Chris Perry

John Pettitt

Chris,regarding your comment No.1 which I will paste here:

1. If you think you may have lost your ball (including out of bounds), you hit a provisional from the same place as the original shot, but not unless you first inform the group you are playing with that you are doing so.  If you don't inform them, it counts as playing the wrong ball and you take a penalty stroke (and then have to hit another provisional). 

The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball.

If he fails to do so and plays another ball, that ball is not a provisional ball and becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1) ; the original ball is lost.

Chris Perry

Ah, so if I play a provisional without informing the relevant parties, I am effectively declaring the original ball lost immediately and revoking any right to search for it. 

My discussions with the brother-in-law continued today (with more claims of cheat!).  We have reached an agreement that our regular Sunday four-ball will agree what is fair amongst us by majority decision in future if were unsure.  We will then check the rules at a later date so that we "know for next time".  As we're all of a similar standard (and none have us have been playing more than two years) we agreed that this was fair for a social game where the only competition is with each other for bragging rights. 

John Pettitt

Exactly, Chris.

It is nice to hear that some golfers are keen to play by the rules.

Wayne Santorini

David Marshall

John....Now you have confused the hell out of me...Unless you have missed out a word in your sentence.

"You would be correct in stating that even after dropping a ball, providing a stroke has been made that it would be permitted to play the found ball, provided of course that it was within the five minute regulation".

I have highlighted where I think the error is...Namely, you say the stroke has been made....Don't you mean when the stroke has NOT been made?

The other bit you mention about when to play the provisional ball is correct, and is what I thought I had meant. But obviously I put it across incorrectly. The reason being, sometimes you might not be fully aware that your ball is lost in which case you would not necessarily play a provisional ball.

Oh flipping heck.....My brain hurts.....

Solution..........Don't lose the ball in the first friggin place 

John Pettitt

 Yes David, my typing is as bad as my brain.

I think we both know what the situation is in respect of a provisional ball, just that we have got our wires crossed somewhere.

Tony Dunn

Chris

    Why do you swap balls on longer/shorter holes?

David Marshall

Tony Dunn

David Marshall

Chris Perry

Tony,

Like most high handicappers I have a fade which increases with club length.  For me, this is normally related to having a wood in my hand.  A lower spin ball (typically a Titleist NXT) when using a wood off the tee helps get me closer to the fairway. 

I do have the ability to impart some decent backspin with all my irons off the tee (and anything 8 or shorter off the fairway) so I use a Pro V1 on 140 - 170 yard par 3's and a Pro V1X on shorter ones as I can aim to drop it as close as I can to the pin without fear of hurtling off the back.  Very useful with an island green!

David Marshall

Ahhhh....The dreaded fade.....Colin Montgomery plays most of his shots with a slight fade.

I too have a fade. Caused by an out to in swing plane. I have been trying like crazy to cure this, finally it seems to be working.  Its the draw I am having trouble with, no matter how hard I try. But it's getting there.

A slight fade is not too much of a problem. Its when the fade turns into a slice you have to worry! 

What worries the doodles out of me is if a 24.6 handicapper can impart backspin on 170 yard par 3, and then have the bloody cheek to say.."By the way I get a shot on this hole" 

Danny Brant

Chris Perry

Wayne Santorini

Chris Perry

Hello seeenoir, I like your seeester......

If only that were true my dear boy.  If I cold get a consistent round where I play to my ability on every stroke, I'm probably 10 strokes better than my handicap suggests.  Problem is there is always something not working.  On Sunday, it was anything longer than a six iron.  Then when it is going well, I lose my head as I put myself under pressure to keep performing that way.  I've carded 42 going out, added up at the turn and lost my head, carding 54 in.  When I'm scoring well I try to chase the game, try too hard and my course management goes out of the window. 

I'd love to break 90 but 94 is the best I've carded. 

Wayne Santorini

We'll see on the 22nd sunshine!!!!!!!!

And leave my sis out of it, Nat ain't interested in anyone yet????

Chris Perry

Bring her down on the 22nd, I'll charm her with my sombrero and poncho. 

I hope you do think I'm a bandit on the 22nd 'cos that means I will have played well.  I aim to get to the end of the round without a sore throat from shouting "Fore Right!" too much.  Which brings me onto the new topic I've just posted.

Wayne Santorini

Glad to see your aware of not going off topic and posted another one.

I do hate people that stray from the theme

Tony Dunn

David Marshall

Wayne Santorini

Tony Dunn

David Marshall

Tony....You left yourself WIDE open to that one.

I'm sorry 

Robbie Allison

What's all this...??

I spend most of the week in bed with flu and my hairy headed partner is abused and reduced to tears. We have just come from a nightmare round and not even my regular cuddles could halt tony's sniffles.

And it is so close to father christmas coming too - Of course us Northernites  believe in things like Santa and fairies at the bottom of the garden.

Not to mention 300 yard drives and eyesight sharp enough to spot backspin from 170 yards...

Wind up merchant - me...??

Wayne Santorini

Steve Morgan

Just to get this topic closed can I correct one error in the posts above.

 There seems to be some confusion about provisional balls & substituted balls but, putting that aside for a moment, it should be pointed out that once you have dropped a substitute ball it is immediately ball in play (ie you don't even have to have hit it).

 Different for a provisional which only becomes the ball in play if the original is Lost or OB or you play it past the point at which it should have been found.

 For example - you go to look for your ball for 2 mins (without playing a provisional) walk back to where you originaly played from and drop another. The 2nd ball is now the ball in play. If someone finds your original ball before the 5 mins has elapsed or before you hit the substituted ball it doesn't make any difference - it's no longer the ball in play!

David Marshall

Sorry Steve you are totally wrong in your statement.......

I have attached the rules regarding a provisional ball, and it proves what we were saying is in fact correct....

b. When Provisional Ball Becomes Ball in Play
The player may play a provisional ball until he reaches the
place where the original ball is likely to be. If he makes a
stroke with the provisional ball from the place where the
original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than
that place, the original ball is lost and the provisional ball
becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance
(Rule 27-1).
If the original ball is lost outside a water hazard or is out of
bounds, the provisional ball becomes the ball in play, under
penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).
If there is reasonable evidence that the original ball is lost in a
water hazard, the player must proceed in accordance with
Rule 26-1.
Exception: If there is reasonable evidence that the original ball
is lost in an obstruction (Rule 24-3) or an abnormal ground
condition (Rule 25-1c) the player may proceed under the
applicable Rule.
c. When Provisional Ball to be Abandoned
If the original ball is neither lost nor out of bounds, the player
must abandon the provisional ball and continue play with
the original ball. If he makes any further strokes at the
provisional ball, he is playing a wrong ball and the provisions
of Rule 15 apply.
Note: If a player plays a provisional ball under Rule 27-2a, the
strokes made after this Rule has been invoked with a
provisional ball subsequently abandoned under Rule 27-2c
and penalty strokes incurred solely by playing that ball
are disregarded.

Also...The point you made about provisional ball and substituted ball.

There is NO difference.... The word "Substituted" is in fact the American term for a "Provisional" ball

Steve Morgan

David,

 I'm not normally interested in getting into pedantic rules arguments but when I get told that I'm TOTALLY WRONG I will respond.

Firstly, Provisional Ball v Substituted Ball - TOTALLY DIFFERENT DEFINITIONS IN THE RULES OF GOLF - as you are quoting from the rule book above I will presume you have a copy to read.

 A provisional ball is not in play until it is in play as per your definition quoted above.

A substituted ball is always in play.

 ie Nothing to do with our friends over the pond - their rule is exactly the same.

 Secondly, I'm not sure what point you were making by highlighting certain parts of the rule but  everything I said in my original post is PERFECTLY CORRECT.

 You have shown your ignorance of the rules in the following statement :

"As soon the club hit the provisional ball, that ball immediately became the ball in play. No matter if you found the original ball. The original ball is deemed lost and no longer in play. You would not be allowed to play the first ball, under ANY circumstances. What infact Chris should have done is go back to where the last shot was played from and played the provisional from there."

You can NEVER go back to play a provisional ball - once you have walked forward the option of playing a PROVISIONAL ball has gone and you can now only play a SUBSTITUTE ball.

John's statement below is also incorrect - once a substitute ball has been dropped or placed it is in play eg it is not when you have played the shot :

"You would be correct in stating that even after dropping a ball, providing a stroke has [not] been made that it would be permitted to play the found ball, provided of course that it was within the five minuite regulation."

Chris Perry

• A 'provisional' ball is played as a "just in case" and effectively saves you taking a long walk back down the fairway if you don't find your ball.  You can play your provisional up until you reach the point your original ball came to rest/was lost.  It only becomes the ball in play (i.e. a 'substituted' ball) if you play a stroke at it beyond that point or you declare your original ball lost, whichever comes first.  If you find your original ball, you can pick up your provisional at no penalty. 
• A 'substituted' ball replaces the original immediately and is in play from that point.  It is only used when the original is declared lost.  It is played from either the position that the original ball was played and lost (stroke and distance) or as defined otherwise in the rules.  If you find your original ball after playing at a substituted ball, tough. 
• A 'provisional' becomes a 'substituted' immediately the original is declared lost or when it is played beyond the point at which the original ball came to rest/was lost.  
• The stroke count is no of shots at the original, plus no of shots at the 'substituted' ball, plus one stroke. 

Wayne Santorini

"Rock on Chris"....................

Chris Perry

Steve Morgan

"You wouldn't go back and hit another unless you had already decided the original was lost, so that declaration would make the replacement a substituted ball anyway."

I've often seen guys walk back after 2 mins saying "give me a shout if you find it before my 5 mins is up" so this scenario can easily happen.

ps as I'm sure many of the rules guys will have said before - you cannot 'declare' a ball lost. It can only be deemed lost by another action ie putting another ball into play or exceeding 5 mins search. eg even if you say "I declare that ball lost" if someone finds it within 5 mins search you still have to play it.

David Marshall

Steve.......

I assume you are have a dig at me and accusing me of using a 1980 set of rules!!!

Point 1....

I have refered to, and use, the CURRENT rules....The 2008 rules are effective in 35 days time!!

Point 2....

I have checked, as I always do, that my facts are correct.....

Perhaps it is you that needs read the rules..

I have taken the extra trouble of providing a ling for the CURRENT rules as written by R&A 

Chris Perry

Steve, I'm confused.  In your first post you say: -

"For example - you go to look for your ball for 2 mins (without playing a provisional) walk back to where you originaly played from and drop another. The 2nd ball is now the ball in play. If someone finds your original ball before the 5 mins has elapsed or before you hit the substituted ball it doesn't make any difference - it's no longer the ball in play!"

OK, I follow that.  But in your last one you say: -

"[A ball] can only be deemed lost by another action ie putting another ball into play or exceeding 5 mins search. eg even if you say "I declare that ball lost" if someone finds it within 5 mins search you still have to play it"

I apologise as I'm reasonably new to the game, but it appears contradictory to me.  Am I misunderstanding?

Steve Morgan

Chris,

 These rules can be quite confusing ! Put as simply as possible..

You cannot 'declare' a ball lost.

A ball is only LOST if

1. you have searched for over 5 minutes

2. you have but another ball in play (substitute ball) (this is what some may call 'declaring' the ball lost - ie they don't bother looking for the original and hit another ball off the tee as their 3rd shot (including the penalty))

3. you have hit your provisional from a point past where your original ball may have been lost.

Therefore, a ball is NOT lost until one of the above has been met (this is as per the definiton of Lost Ball in the rules of golf.)

Steve Morgan

Chris,

 These rules can be quite confusing ! Put as simply as possible..

You cannot 'declare' a ball lost.

A ball is only LOST if

1. you have searched for over 5 minutes

2. you have but another ball in play (substitute ball) (this is what some may call 'declaring' the ball lost - ie they don't bother looking for the original and hit another ball off the tee as their 3rd shot (including the penalty))

3. you have hit your provisional from a point past where your original ball may have been lost.

Therefore, a ball is NOT lost until one of the above has been met (this is as per the definiton of Lost Ball in the rules of golf.)

Steve Morgan

David,

1980's reference certainly was not meant for you - I haven't a clue how old you are.

The rules you seem to be getting wrong weren't even correct back then !

In answer to your comments....

"I have refered to, and use, the CURRENT rules....The 2008 rules are effective in 35 days time!! " Snap - but you don't seem to understand them, I do.

"I have checked, as I always do, that my facts are correct....." That may be so but your understanding of how to take a drop from an unplayable lie in a bush is completely wrong. And your statement that a provisional is the same as a substituted ball is also completely wrong. Please feel free to let me know what your have got correct.

Maybe when you check your facts you should take the blinkers off.

"Perhaps it is you that needs read the rules.. " Sorry but I had to do that when I did my referees exams and passed with the highest score of that year.

"I have taken the extra trouble of providing a ling for the CURRENT rules as written by R&A" Thanks for the link - I'll be sure to add it to my favourites if it's not already there !

David Marshall

"I have checked, as I always do, that my facts are correct....." That may be so but your understanding of how to take a drop from an unplayable lie in a bush is completely wrong.

So how would you take a drop from a bush then, Steve?

Chris's original point was that the ball rolled into some bushes, but he could not find it. Therefore he could not take a line from where the ball lay, as he did not know where it lay !

Consequently you take the line from where the ball entered the bushes. And my intrpretation of the rule is correct, which is why I posted the exact wording of the current rules and highlighted it in the first place

Steve Morgan

Here we go again ....

You said "Chris's original point was that the ball rolled into some bushes, but he could not find it. Therefore he could not take a line from where the ball lay, as he did not know where it lay !"

Therefore it's a LOST BALL not an UNPLAYABLE BALL - why are you going on about unplayable balls ? Yet another complete misunderstanding by yourself.

How can you claim that the ball is unplayable if you can't even find it.

Please let me know where you play so that I can (a) warn your playing partners or (b) come along and play you in matchplay - at this rate I'd be able to claim every hole for some rule break or another !

 Has anyone played with David ? If so I'm sure you'll be on your guard next time !

Steve Morgan

So how would you take a drop from a bush then, Steve?

I would actually find the ball first, that's a good starting point (Otherwise it's a LOST BALL) Then I would mark the point where it is, and then proceed to carry ouit one of the 3 options open to me.

None of the options for an unplayable ball mentions anything about taking a penalty drop near the bush if you cant find it.

 Apologies to everyone else if this is getting boring but once David understands the rules it will be better for all concerned.

David Marshall

Steve Morgan

Oh flipping heck - someone help me here !

 Play from original position, go back on line from flag keeping position of ball between you & flag, or drop within 2 club lengths not nearer hole.

David Marshall

Some body help me here too....Apart from using slighty different words, That is what I had originally said.

We are obviously at cross purposes here. So hopefully we can only agree on that.

John Pettitt

David Marshall

John Pettitt

I am sure you were correct within your own mind, David, just that steve picked you up on your interpretation of the line.

I understood what you meant.

David Marshall

I know.....

It was also the bit he said about dropping the ball...i.e. as soon as the ball is dropped it becomes the ball in play.  Whereas the rules say as soon as the ball has been struck, and not just dropped that got me.

Then when I highlight the point, by pasteing the rules, he says he doesn't understand why I did it. Then goes into a barrage of abuse, which is usually the sign of somebody losing their side of a conversation.

Steve Morgan

APOLOGIES UP TO YOU ALL FOR THE LONG POST !

 Firstly may I apologise to David for any 'abuse' I may have given & I will try to keep this one civil so that I can get my points across without any dispute as to who is right and who is wrong.

I'll take one point at a time and see if we can clear it up - this may include reference to another thread. Red quotes are all from David's previous posts so I am hoping that these are not in dispute !

"You can look for the first ball for a maximum of five minutes. Then you play a provisional." - John Pettit has already pointed out this mistake so hopefully this is not in dispute. John at least you weren't told you were wrong by David (or anyone else) so I'm assuming that it was accepted.

"Also...The point you made about provisional ball and substituted ball. There is NO difference.... The word "Substituted" is in fact the American term for a "Provisional" ball " - This is incorrect as per previous posts, see the definitions of Provisonal Ball & Substitute Ball in Rules of Golf

"It was also the bit he said about dropping the ball...i.e. as soon as the ball is dropped it becomes the ball in play.  Whereas the rules say as soon as the ball has been struck, and not just dropped that got me." - this highlights my point about confusion over provisional & substitute balls. What I was trying to say (maybe unsuccessfully) was that a substitute ball is in play as soon as it is dropped (immediately it is dropped in a place that is allowed by the rules). You would be correct if Chris's ball (original post) had been a provisional but it wasn't so you were not correct. It was substitute - therefore it was in play as soon as he dropped it. I hope this makes sense.

"If your ball goes into the bushes, you are allowed to drop the ball back on the line it entered the bush as far back as you like (not nearer the hole) and you incur one penalty shot. As long as the bushes are not out of bounds." - This is also incorrect. If you find the ball you can mark it's location and use that as a reference for any of the available options but if you do not locate the ball (even if you know it went in there) you cannot use the unplayable ball rule, you must use the Lost Ball rule. Therefore the ball is LOST not UNPLAYABLE and the only option is to return to the last shot location.

It does seem as though you are fully aware of the rules (and are using the latest version) but unfortunately seem to be applying the wrong rules to the situations described.

 I hope that this does not sound abusive in any way but, as stated originally, I do object when I am told that I am "totally wrong" as I'm sure anyone who reads back through this and a couple of other threads will be able to see. My abusiveness was as a direct result of a refusal on your part to accept that you were even slightly wrong, never mind totally wrong.

I am a fully qualified rules official and was just attempting to clear up any confusion over the words that were used on some of the previous points. As we all know, these posts could easily be quoted next Sunday on any course across the land and it is best if they are correct!

I admit you did wind me up with your refusal to accept that you made a couple of errors and I hope that you will now see where I was coming from.

I also hope that next time I point out an understandable mistake that you will not tell me that I am totally wrong (unless I actually am !)

Tony Dunn

David Marshall

Steve.....I apologise......You are correct in all you say..

My errors were as you quite rightly highlighted 

Danny Brant

So if I play a provisional off the tee, thats still only a provisional until I play a shot with it, past the point where I believe I've lost the original ball?

This scenario.

Tee off, into the trees. Play a provisional, middle of the fairway. Play 2nd with the provisional. Wallk a bit further, and my 1st ball has bounced out into the rough, its not lost.

Can I play the 1st ball? 

David Marshall

Yes....

You have to abandon the provisional ball if you find you first ball.

Attached rule:   Steve or John....I HOPE I have got this correct ?

c. When Provisional Ball to be Abandoned
If the original ball is neither lost nor out of bounds, the player
must abandon the provisional ball and continue play with
the original ball. If he makes any further strokes at the
provisional ball, he is playing a wrong ball and the provisions
of Rule 15 apply.

John Pettitt

David Marshall

That reminds me.....I have several Top Flite Z Balata golf balls.  If you still play that brand, you are welcome to them..No charge...

Chris Perry

I noticed last week that they sell those in Asda now John if you're struggling to get hold of them. 

John Pettitt

Wayne Santorini

I don't know what all the fuss is about, only to say if Steve Morgan joins one of our Golfshake days out I want to be in his 4ball with Davina and Dazza.

Steve Morgan

Sorry, haven't been on all day but nice to come home to an apology.

Thanks David. (I knew we'd get there in the end)

And you are correct in your answer to Danny's question !

Steve Morgan

Wayne,

I'll try to get along to one sometime ! That should be fun !

Maybe I'll just come along as official referee and you can tell me which groups you like me to keep an eye on ! Watch out David !~)