The Masters stays - women or not

The PGA Tour are not prepared to drop the Masters, even though its Georgia host, the Augusta National Golf Club, continue to exclude women from membership.

And that's official.

PGA Tour Commissioner Tim Finchem made that clear on Thursday when, speaking to the media at TPC Sawgrass ahead of The Players championship, he said "The position of the PGA Tour hasn't changed.

"We have a policy that says that when we go out and do a co-sanctioned event, we are going to play it at a club that is as open to women members, open to minority members etc and we follow that policy carefully.

"But in the case of the Masters, we have concluded a number of times now that we are not going to give up the Masters as a tournament on our tour.

"It's too important and so at the end of the day, we are going to continue to play and recognize them as part of the PGA Tour.

"I know some people don't like that position and I appreciate that and understand their reasoning, but that's the decision we've made."

When Augusta National's membership policy came under fire during last month's Masters tournament, current club chairman Billy Payne toed the club's usual line on membership by refusing to discuss whether change was on the agenda and he continued to do so this week.

Augusta National's membership policy has been a controversial issue for years, but it zoomed back into the headlines after business women Ginni Rometty was appointed as chief executive officer of IBM in January.

IBM, the world's largest technology services company, is a long-standing sponsor of the Masters and its past four CEO's were all granted membership to Augusta National.

But the club now faces the tough question of whether to change its policy and allow Rometty to join them or whether to shun one of their major sponsors.

US President Barack Obama stepped into the debate during the build-up to the tournament in early April.

"His personal opinion is that women should be admitted," White House spokesman Jay Carney told reporters last month, saying he had spoken to Obama about the issue. "We are kind of long past the time when women should be excluded from anything."

Augusta's invitation-only membership has been shrouded in secrecy since the conservative club opened in 1932. Women have been allowed to play on the course, but only when invited by a member, never as a member.

The club does not reveal its full list of members, believed to be in the vicinity 300, but it's good old boys as they are often described is believed to include many of the most powerful men from industry, finance, and law including Microsoft's Bill Gates and Investment Guru Warren Buffett.

Watch this space...

Did they eventually let Bill Gates join? I remember Augusta said a few years ago he can buy anything in the world apart from membership to Augusta national. The only way he would get in was to win the thing.

Dave CAC handed Geordie.

but does it come down to money the tour gets from plying there to me no club should have restrictions on who plays women or even kids

Yes, Karl, in the end your kind of thinking will drag the game down to a level that will make it not worthwhile playing.

now thats makes no sence john, why would my way of think make the game not worth playing, sure if a club does not want women there then the club is sexist and should be brought in the modern world and not back in the dark ages, if the master want to be exclusive to them then so be it and the pga tour for women should play there to prove a point plus kids are the future of any club

Wasted post, David C, Karl is one of those guys who feels that golf owes him, simply because he has decided to start playing it.

His views are not valid in any way, it is him who needs to learn about traditions of this wonderful game instead of thinking that the modern world has made progress, when in fact it hasn't.

Perhaps when he has learned to play the game, when he is a bona fide member of a proper golf club, he will think differently, but I very much doubt it.

How is discrimination within the great traditions of the game? If you exclude anyone for reasons of sex, religion, nationality, then that is discrimination, and that is exactly what Augusta National are doing.

When Augusta National go against their "tradition" of inviting IBM CEO's to become members, simply because Ginni Rometty is a woman, then that is openly sexist and can't be condoned.

Sadly, until high profile golfers start openly chastising this policy and threaten to pull out, then it will be allowed to continue.

I have no qualms against clubs being male/female only, and if they want to go down that route then that's fine. It really is.

Augusta National should be treated differently though because of its high profile. What it's saying is that's okay to say that women don't belong, and that message then goes out to millions of people every year. You only have to talk to golfers at your local club to realise that that opinion is shared by quite a few of them. Maybe they would think like that anyway, but I am sure it is enforced by the views of clubs such as Augusta National.

As a game we should be attracting people from all spectrum’s of society, and while the spectacle of The Masters does more than most to attract people to the game, it's views on women members does little to dispel the belief that golf is still in the dark ages as a game being open to all.

Neville, the dark ages as you call them were the best conditions to play this game. The changes brought about by the introduction of the surge in new course builds over the past 30/40 years is what has changed the way the game was played. This has attracted many new players to the game who have failed to maintain the standards in virtually everything surrounding this game. More players are now nomads, yet still firmly believe that they are golfers. Don't make me laugh.

As the older generation die off, leaving gaps in membership at clubs that always had a waiting list will the current breed take up ther slack or will thery carry on in the same sweet way expecting clubs to accommodate their wishes. Only time will tell, but I fear for the game and its traditions. I have been fortunate to hav e enjoyed the best period in the game. New course design has taken away the shotmaking skills and opened the field to the crash bang wallop guys. Not worth watching on TV anymore, nothing much to watch.

A 'PRIVATE MEMBERS CLUB' is just that, private to it's members. What the members want should be allowed and if you don't like it go elsewhere.

Saying Augusta is wrong to not allow women as members can be twisted through other Clubs. XYZ bank build a course and clubhouse for it's employees and don't allow anyone to use the facilities who isn't. Isn't that the same?

TheLyth

Exactly, Lyth. Once upon a time new players aspired to becoming good enough to join a private members clubs. Now, of course that aspiration does not even come into the equation. Self, first second and last.

David, if Augusta National hadn't made an invitation to Ginni Rometty only because she was black, Jewish, or born in Afghanistan, would that make a difference in your viewpoint? I understand that Augusta National is a private club and can invite who they want, but this wasn't about inviting someone, this was about snubbing someone because of their gender.

And do you not think that as a course that is a highlight of TV's golfing calendar each year, it is very much a role model for the game in much the same way as the players are (or should be), and therefore should be treated differently to other private clubs?

John, when I said that golf was still in the dark ages, I was referring to how it was perceived by the general public. If you asked a non-golfer to name a sport that was all about “blazers, brandy, and brigadiers”, then I'm sure that golf would be right up there when you got your answers back.

How the game actually used to be I can't say, because I've never really been a member of a private club. Why? Lots of reasons, but mainly because I don't have any friends who are members anywhere, and I wouldn't want to be tied down to playing one course all the time. And yes, I know I can still play other courses within this scenario, but membership is a huge outlay that would pretty much eat up my annual golf budget.

Why my views should make me less of a golfer than someone who chooses to become a member of a private club, I have no idea. To me that sounds like the sort of golf snobbery that stereotypes this game.

As for reasons as to why these sorts of clubs are struggling to fill their membership quotas, I would guess it is simply down to what people want from the game of golf nowadays. If these clubs want to attract new members then I'm afraid they will just have to change their ways to make themselves more appealing. I am sure that this won't meet with your approval, but if enough people wanted golf clubs to be the way they were then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Btw, I am not saying that I disapprove of the style of golf club you long for, just that there is room for golf clubs to meet everyone's taste.

Which brings me back to one of the original points that I made earlier, that if you want to encourage new players into playing this game, as a sport that is available to everyone, then it doesn't help to have high profile clubs like Augusta National discriminating against anyone in society.

In my opinion, no-one should be excluded from anything, including golf clubs, solely beacuse of their race, sex, age, religion or sexual preference.  I have no problem with someone being excluded from a golf club because they do not play to the required standard, or if they do not fit with the club's ethos, or even if the club do not feel they will be right for the club, but no-one should be excluded purely because of their background or birth.  That narrow minded view should have ended with women getting the vote and the civil rights movement (yes, that long ago). 

All private clubs have the right to decide on who can and can't be their members, but this should be done 'blind' and with equality, regardless of the individual

I think that Copsewood Grange in Coventry (formerly Marconi Golf Club) built by the GEC would only let senior male employees become members up until the last 10 years when Marconi was around.

now john i would love to know what planet you live on nothing owes me anthing i have opions on things and i say them if you dont like it so be it, i dont have to join a club to know how golf is, just because you live in a cotton bud world and the dark ages you have your opion and i have mine just accept it and get on with it

plus i have played the game for over 10 years and enjoy it when i play, and no matter whas you think clubs need people to keep going, people like you would make the game have old men playing it and the younger people of this world would not play it if you had your way so golf would die

I joined my club in July 2010, 4 months before the equality law came in. When I joined I knew there were different rules for men and women and certain sections of the club house would be off limits to me. I also knew I would pay less money too. I really didn't think would bother me at all but actually it did. I found that I really really hated it. Being treated like the 'little lady' really grated on me.

Unlike most of the ladies I really didn't mind the hike in fees we faced as a result of equality. I much preferred paying the same money and being treated as equal members.

There are 3 main bar rooms at the club and before equality I was only allowed in one of them. As a working girl I liked to spend a few hours at the club on Saturdays practicing and then play on Sunday. I was usually the only lady up at the club so after my round I sat alone in the only room available to me whilst hearing the excellent atmosphere happening in the other rooms. It felt awful. Even when my husband was in there I was excluded and I didn't want him to have to sit in the other room with me.

As soon as equality came in I made sure I used the other bars immediately. It was much easier for me than the other ladies as I was so new but even so for the first few months I got some horrendous glares for being in there. 2 years later no-one bats an eyelid and the men quite happily swear in my presence and even include me in the banter. They have realised their world hasn't collapsed because a lady is present.

I have suffered discrimination because of my gender a number of times and it drives me mad. Even now everyone assumes that my husband runs our company as he is the man when actually I run the company, I am better at it (I would rather be better at golf like him!).

I think until you suffer from discrimination you have no idea of the helpless feelings of rage and unfairness you get so it will be difficult for you to really understand that it IS a big issue.

John - Whilst I do agree with you mostly about the traditions of golf being important to maintain in this case I do disagree. Traditional values is no excuse for sex discrimination. If we were talking about a club hardly anyone has heard of then fair enough, they would be impacting very few. But this is one of the most well known golf clubs in the world and they have a duty to set an example. They should change their policy. As someone else wrote, if the policy was discrimination by race hardly anyone would be defending them.

Judy.

great comments  judy http://www.golfshake.com/scripts/ckeditor362/plugins/smiley/images/regular_smile.gif" title="smiley" width="20" />

Judy, this so called famous club of yours discriminates with its membership fees.

Karl, sentences start with a capital letter.

and that matters in what way john

maybe you should get out and meet real people and not people that live in your golf club and its back in time views that you have as they are just old school views, if your views ment anything then we would have people like gary player, arnold palmer still on tour and not the young people like rory or justin rose who people look upto when they play (i dont know any on the womens tour)

sticks and stones john sticks and stones

Karl, your interpretation of real people is probably nowhere near mine, but that aside, deriding players of the stature of Palmer, Player and those of different eras by praising the young of today, who, I might add do not have the playing skills of those of yesteryear. Do you honestly believe that if Mr Hogan were playing today that he would not figure at the top of the leaderboard.

I can understand your admiration for the better players of this game, especially after having played for 10 years, your progress seems to be a lightyear away for you.

John, like most clubs there used to be a difference in fees between men and women. Women paid less and in return were not full members. We couldn't attend or vote at the AGM and were banned from using the course at specific times and were banned from certain areas of the club house. Since Equality the fees are the same between men and women and the women are now allowed the freedom to use the course in the same way as men are, we can access the other bar areas and we are full members with full rights. There is no discrimination at all, everyone pays the same.

I'm not sure why you say 'so called famous club'. I am proud of my club and it's history and proud that after some fantastic work by the various committees the course and facilities have won over the R&A and regional qualifying for The Open will be held here for the next 5 years.

now john you are making me laugh now,  i would love to know what you call a real player and i am sure people following this would also so lets be having  it

also i may have been playing for 10 years but as i have a wife a young daughter it has not been possible to play as much as i would like as like anything in life family comes first

as for peole like hogan yes he may be top of the leader board if he played today, but he would have the same things available to him as other players today, that is like any sport modern equipment changes things so your point can not be used as things change o look the word change as i am sure you do not have a 1930's set of clubs (then again you do)

time to get back in your bubble wrap world

Judy, I would be pleased to know the name of this famous club you are a member of, if you don't mind divulging it. Many clubs get Open qualifying but that does not make them the best, does it.

Karl, there are many players, including myself who have raised a family and played this game. I am surprised that after ten years you are still obviously struggling with it. Perhaps you are satisfied just to talk about the game.

In respect of Hogan, he would still be at the top using the equipment of the fifties, he would have no need or desire to use the modern sledgehammers.

Being involved with Golf in Leeds for many years, I totally agree that the new Laws have changed most Clubs for the better.

I think that Johns main concern is that people are saying on here that everything should be allowed now. Jeans, Trainers, Sleeveless Shirts along with total beginners being allowed on all courses. That should never happen. If I paid £1000pa to be a member of a club that allowed someone to just turn up, pay and go out and damage the course by not knowing how to conduct themselves correctly, then I would be very upset.

TheLyth

i agree that polo shirt and trousers should be worn at all times like i do when ever i play

joh  in what way am i struggling with the game just because my handicap may say 28 on here does not reflect my game

if you remember that when you join this great site you get and handicap so i am lost why i stuggling with the game,

how do you know what i play like when you dont know me

and for your information my daughter has taken up the game and i make her put on her golf shoes even on the local pay and play

so once again think before you insult people as thease things come back and bite

I agree completely David. Most of the traditional rules and etiquette make the game special and should be retained. No denim, casual wear, gentlemen must wear jacket and tie after 7pm, respect on the course, keeping up with play, letting players thorugh etc - they all have a place in golf.

What doesn't have a place is sexism which is what my only issue is. There is no place for sexism in golf.

i agree that polo shirt and trousers should be worn at all times like i do when ever i play

john  in what way am i struggling with the game just because my handicap may say 28 on here does not reflect my game

if you remember that when you join this great site you get and handicap so i am lost why i stuggling with the game,

how do you know what i play like when you dont know me

and for your information my daughter has taken up the game and i make her put on her golf shoes even on the local pay and play

so once again think before you insult people as thease things come back and bite

John, I am a member of Moortown.

nice club judy think i would have to sell the wife to play there lol

Judy, my recollection of Moortown is of a wonderful course and played at a time when golf was a pleasure to play. 1968 Brabazon Trophy.

I have also played Lindrickl, which I also liked.

Karl, I can sympathise with your domestic arrangements but really they are no excuse for not showing some improvement. Perhaps encouraging your daughter will give you more satisfaction.

o my john you have lost the plot

not showing improvement in what way can you know that unless you are going off whats on here in that case you are as daft as i think,

think you should act your age and not that of a child that has lost his teddy

John - your latest post made me snort out loud! 

I do consider it an honour to be a member of Moortown and I often wonder why on earth they accepted me.

Now I am off to do more practice so I don't get into trouble for not improving!

Not lost the plot at all, Karl. you list your handicap as we all do and I'm sorry, but 28 after 10 years of practice is pretty dismal, to say the least.

Judy, I have just pictured you snorting out loud, good thing it wasn't in the clubhouse, or there might have been some raised eyebrows.

I can see no reason why you should not be a member at Moortown, after all, as you have said, your very low handicap husband is a member.

once again john you have said somthing which make me laugh

just because my handicap may say 28 after 10 years as i have only joined this site in the last year and remember you have to submit card to get your hanicap down also as i am not a member of a club how am i supposed to get a handicap

so once again unless you no the fact best to not say anything about me or any member of the site

it makes you out to be a sad little man

I think that is what John is saying....you aren't a member of a club, so, possibly have no idea of how the internals of clubs run, and with that, the opinions you have on golf clubs are far off the mark.

Myself, I am sitting on the fence (damn splinters)!  If that is the way Augusta is, then let it be...it doesn't affect any of us individually.  My club is a private club, and has female members.  They have a good laugh in the clubhouse with the males and get on.

I also see the traditions of golf, and get very frustrated (even angry) when these aren't adhered to. I do think becoming a member of a club opens your eyes a lot more to what actually goes on, and the traditions of the game...rather than being a nomad, and to fully enjoy the game, you need to be a member 

i might not be a member of a club i have friends that are and the all say it old school and needs to change people in a club should all be treated the same if augusta wants to have male only then thats there right but in the modern world it would be sexist, would love to see what happened if the colour of skin became an issue in clubs

It is a good thing that punctuation is not a requirement in the golf swing, Karl, or you would never make any progress. 10 years and still 28, must be a record.

john you are a sad and bitter  little man

the end

You give up far to easily, Karl.

John, don't you think it's a little harsh to comment on a fellow member's progress when you don;t know them personally?

Karl relax, those of us who have been reading posts on here for some time know exactly how John is going to react to most opinions. The word "curmudgeon" might have been invented for John. His views, however aggressive they appear, usually have some validity - I know as I am pretty well the same vintage as him but, I hope, with a little more sense of fun. Don't be put off enjoying the wonderful game of golf.

thanks liam and james 

he wont put me off the game with his back in time views the worse thng is i could go on for months and even years on a subject but the end of the day life is to short and forums are for opions

so john i dont give up 

as they say let the big dog eat

Got invited to play down at East Brighton on Saturday. Nice course, great views. A little strange though... walking off the course at about 11:00 I couldn't help noticing that they had allowed women to tee off before midday. Shocking!!

maybe because we are open minded forward thinking people down here paul !!!

(i know you were joking)

David, I think that you miss the point, and that is that as a host to a tournament that is very much in the public eye, it has a responsibility to set a certain level of standards. The message it sends however is that it is okay to exclude women.

If I recall correctly, this used to be a "whites only" club that prevented blacks from becoming members, and only ever had blacks on the course to be caddies at its tournaments. Was it political correctness gone mad when that policy was changed? Or is there a difference between discriminating against blacks and women? If Augusta National was still an "all white" establishment, would that be acceptable in your eyes?

Augusta like any other private club have the right to reserve entry into their clubs. If they have never allowed women to join their clubs why should they be forced into it now?

These clubs are acting in the interests of their current members who are paying their yearly memberships year in year out.

Yes Augusta has had a tradition of inviting the CEO of IBM to become a member BUT it has also had a tradition of being an all male club so in my eyes it's not discrimination it's just upholding the tradition which was long in place before IBM started to sponsor the Masters.

When will this madness stop, will people be lobbying to allow girls into All Boys schools or vice versa (I know which gender would prefer that!!)

Sorry, was in a mischievous mood last night; this thread has been quite an amusing read.

Glad you spotted that I wasn't serious Tim.

(I even saw a mixed group the other day!!)

Women have absolutely no place on a golf course unless they are holding a tray of drinks.

ouch david think judy will be after you on that

David Cox - I do actually agree that single sex clubs are perfectly valid - I just think Augusta's unique position in the golf world means they should not be seen to be sexist. If they want the benefits of holding a major golf tournament then they should not be advocating sexism.

David Homer - how about a tray of pork pies - would that be ok?

John Flood - No one's been able to answer this for me yet, so perhaps you'll be able to. If it was a white's only club, and it had a long tradition of being so, would that still be okay for you today? Or is racism and sexism different in some way?

On that note i have been told by friends of mine that when they moved near a private club in cheshire that they do not allow jewish people in not sure if that still stands and he lives witin 100 yards of the club

ps look john a cap O

Fantastic, Karl, just a couple of commas and a full stop and you will be there.

Neville, you certainly are persistent. Augusta was a whites only club, if you remember, and if you can, go even further back to the time when professional golfers were not allowed in the clubhouse.

Do you remember that and were you outside the club with your sandwich board demonstrating the injustice. No. of course you weren't, just hopping onto the bandwaggon in an attempt to stir things up.

Judy - Pork pies would be great. Clearly I was joking, my daughter is a member of the same golf club as I!

John, I'm seriously not trying to be annoying, and my English teacher will certainly be pleased that you aren't pulling me up for my grammer or spelling, but a number of people have come out and said that it is okay for Augusta National to be sexist without ever explaining why. To me it doesn't seem enough to just say "it's okay" or "it's always been that way". For example, you haven't ever said whether it was okay for this club to be "whites only", and if it wasn't then why that is different to "males only".

Btw, I have only written 5 replies (including this one) in this post to your 15, so I'm not sure who is the persistant one here.

Neville, you make a good point and I agree. People should only be excluded if their behaviour requires such extreme measures, i.e. cheating, violence against others etc. If you pay your money and stick to the rules then all should be welcome in my view.

I feel you are completely missing the point, Neville. Augusta Golf club has always been a whites only club and this stems fom the days of the slaves in that part of the world.

The Masters is another closed shop event only open to those whom are invited, but it survives because both players and spectators from all continents support this event. If they didn't then perhaps you might get to see your wish.

My view is that any club can make up the rules themselves and if that affects certain people, then tough.

How do you feel about the Champions golf club in Texas where one has to be 15 handicap or better to gain membership.

Perhaps you could enquire on the forums behalf to find out if Formby Ladies golf club allows men members.

Not making any real attempt to be pedantic, Neville, but the word "grammar" has an 'a' and not an 'e'.

David, I'm not sure of what you're trying to say. I have no idea what it means when you say 'legitimate racism', and you STILL don't answer the question of whether it is okay for Augusta National to prevent non-whites from becoming members. It is not about purely about racism that I ask this, it is to see how you differentiate between different forms of exclusion. Why you think some forms some are okay and others aren't. Maybe you say all forms are?

I have only a few thoughts on whether single sex schools should be banned as it is something I have never really considered as a topic of conversation before. I would say that girls and boys are different through gender, and keeping them apart at school is unlikely to scar them or preventing them from being all they could be. It's purely down to the teaching they get. I have issues with schools being divided by religion or race, but that's another topic entirely.

I truly have nothing against single sex golf clubs. If people feel the need to be in a club of like-minded people, & they aren't hurting anyone, then why would I care?

My problem with Augusta National is as I've stated before, and without wishing to upset John once more with my persistence, it is a very "public" private club that has snubbed a potential member because of her gender.

If they want to be a club of very rich "good ol' boys" then I have no qualms with that, but if they want to be the host of possibly the biggest golf tournament in the world then they have to live up to certain standards. Sexism falls way below that standard.

As for resisting my "forcing your ideology onto society", aren't we both doing that? Or is that only ever one directional and from the left? That's another thing you can not get around to answering.

John. Many thanks for the correction in the word grammar. I was just watching "Frasier" and obviously got confused with the actor Kelsey Grammer. It happens

I am fully aware of the Masters popularity, and for this reason alone I realise that things are unlikely to ever change with regards females being allowed to become members. However, if enough sponsors find that their customers disagree with this policy enough to start withdrawing their custom, then perhaps things might change. I don't see this as likely, but then again I don't see why I have to stay silent on the topic either.

To be honest, this is the first time I have even bothered to write on the subject, but I am certainly enjoying the banter from both sides.

The Champions Golf Club in Texas is quite within its rights to set the standard of play as they see fit, and if a minimum 15 HC is the way they want to go then I see no problem with that. Men, women, black, white, English, French, no one is being excluded simply because of their gender, colour or race, just their ability defines whether they make the cut.

Formby Ladies Golf Club? Try to remind me what major tournament they hold that goes out to millions each year? None? Oh.... Again, I have no issues with them as an all women's golf club.

As for your point that Augusta National has always been an all white club, and I assume that you believe that a valid reason for continuing that tradition, I would hope that in this day and age that we would all be far more enlightened about such things. It may come as a surprise to a good many at some golf clubs, but women are allowed to vote, monkeys can walk the streets of Hartlepool without fear of being hung as French spies, and children are no longer sent up chimneys to clean them. Times change, and ideally golf clubs should too. Or at the very least, the high profile ones anyway.

Wonder if this has the most posts ever 

Neville, it does not matter one iota whether or not we become enlightened, as you so put it. We have no say in what rules any private clubs adopt and pontificating about whether it is right or not is really a waste of time.

I doubt there is anyone on this forum who plays with such a diverse crowd of friends. My regular partners are from two South Africans of which one is black, an Indian (Lovely player) my great friend from Wales Dave Ley, a grenadian and a couple of Chinese. Is that diverse enough for you.

John I think whno should have been WHO, just in case you need help with spelling.

This may help some

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/golf/masters/2002-09-27-augusta_x.htm

So Neville says "I truly have nothing against single sex golf clubs. If people feel the need to be in a club of like-minded people, & they aren't hurting anyone, then why would I care?"

So his argument is "it is a very "public" private club"

So his argument about discriminating is based on him discriminating a public private club as he has no problem with 'quiet' private clubs excluding women!!!

I think it's quite funny

There are all forms of discrimination still going on today in this wonderful world of ours, below are some examples

• Men get charged more for car insurance
• Men get screwed over when it comes to divorce
• Arabs get searched more in airports (do you vetoe against that?)
• NAACP - discriminates against race & colour!!

The list could go on but my point is that no matter what there will always be somone / group etc who feel they are being discriminated against.

Augusta is not breaking any rules as they have always been a single gender club.

The worlds gone mad I tell you http://www.golfshake.com/scripts/ckeditor362/plugins/smiley/images/tounge_smile.gif" title="cheeky" width="20" />

I agree John, there will always be discrimination but that doesn't mean we should not try to change that.

Car Insurance - I'm pretty sure you will find it isn't discrimination it is just a fact that ladies are better drivers in that they have fewer accidents.

'sits back awaiting the barrage' http://www.golfshake.com/scripts/ckeditor362/plugins/smiley/images/wink_smile.gif" title="wink" width="20" />

John Pettitt - I checked the boards at the weekend and the Brabazon you played must have been in 1969. It was a tie finish between Rodney Foster and Sir Michael Francis Bonallack. 

Judy,

By change do you mean forcing clubs / people to change their policies to suit others?

For car insurance every accident I've been involved in was with women who were at fault, the last one I said to her " was you not using your mirrors" to which she replied "yes, how else do you think I apply my make up!!" http://www.golfshake.com/scripts/ckeditor362/plugins/smiley/images/wink_smile.gif" title="wink" width="20" />

With regard to car insurance, sex discrimination to rate premiums will be illegal from late 2012 so watch those premiums rise ladies!!!!  It only needs some bright spark to bring up age discrimination  and we will all be paying through the nose!

maybe we need a mixed pga tour

Karl -John I think whno should have been WHO, just in case you need help with spelling.

There was I thinking that you would possibly be able to tell the difference between an obvious typographical error and a spelling mistake. Obviously you can't. Never mind. Thank you for pointing it out anyway, now corrected.

Judy Owens, thank you for pointing out my error with the year, must be getting senile, I played five in a row culminating at Little Aston Golf Club, Hunstanton, Saunton, Walton Heath, Moortown. I have no doubt you will  tell me the order.

Interestingly I have a matchplay victory against Sir Michael Bonnallack when he was English and Essex Champion. Thornton Cup, Chingford against Thorpe Hall (His home club) 2&1 at West Essex Golf club circa1964

It sounds like you have had a wonderful career John and still going strong. I'm not surprised you mistook the year with all the tournaments you qualified for. The first time I ventured onto Moortown (before joining) was to watch the 2009 Brabazon and it was great to see all the talented players. 

We have the 1836 tour here on Sunday but the one I am really looking forward to is The Open qualifying. Hoping to see some high standard golf.

Next week we have another one of our majors. We have The Ryder Cup qualifying and yes it is a genuine Ryder Cup. When Moortown held the first Ryder Cup this side of the Atlantic (and GB won!) Samual Ryder made a second Ryder Cup and gave it to the ladies of Moortown as a thank you for all the help in putting on the tournament. We play for it each year and one year I am going to win it!

Yes, Judy, I have had a wonderful time playing this game, over forty years with a handicap no higher than six is an achievment I am rightly proud of. What I play now can no longer be termed golf, but it is still nice to get out playing with those who can play.

You will have noticed that my avatar shows me holding the Ryder Cup, this was in 1985 when my friend, Tony Jacklin and Captain that year won it for the first time in 22 years at the Belfry.

Perseverance overcomes resistance, Judy, and determination to win a specific trophy will, in the end, be successful. Mark my words.

I tried to win the Grand Atlantic Trophy at Weston Super Mare for 10 years and although I won the Scratch 3 times it was not until 1979 that I won the Trophy which was a handicap competition and the only one that I used to enter in those days, the reason was that the trophy stood about 3 feet tall with a huge bowl at the top and was valued at £250 in the late 1800's when it was first played for.

John Flood – I could once more repeat my reasoning as to why Augusta National should be treated differently to other golf clubs that aren't in the public eye, but I fear that John Pettitt would have a melt down with me repeating myself, so I will allow you to reread what I have written previously. In many respects it is the way we see a captain of a club, where he has to be held to higher standards than others. Or are you going to argue that point too?

The one thing I would like to say is that after 78 replies, not one person, you included, has even attempted to justify why it is okay to discriminate on gender, yet it isn't on colour or race. Until you have done that to everyone's satisfaction then you are only left with your own strange viewpoint to uphold your beliefs. It really isn't enough to say it's always been like that.

Also, one thing that hasn't been touched on, why would anyone want to be part of a golf club that excludes women? I'd love to hear the answers to that one!

There is a very fine line here. A Club that doesn't allow certain groups to be members, as against a Club that allows certain groups to join and then restricts there involvement. The new equality act deals with the latter only. TheLyth

Maybe they the funny hand shake kind of people.

I think we need a mixed PGA tour

I wouldn't like to play constantly in mixed golf. I do enjoy the occasional mixed game and my husband and I enter the mixed foursomes comp each year but ultimately I prefer playing with my ladies. We play off the same tees and generally go at the same pace. We tend to be a lot less feisty than the men and we accept our duff shots with more grace http://www.golfshake.com/scripts/ckeditor362/plugins/smiley/images/regular_smile.gif" title="smiley" width="20" />.

I know for an fact that the men feel absolutely the same way. They like their competitions without women on the course (except at the back of the field after all the men are out) and they certainly want to keep it that way. Again, they enjoy a few mixed comps during the year but in general golf is much better when competing/playing with the same gender.

I mean, if we played together all the time we might start to be a bit more tolerant of each others style of play and then who would be grumble and moan about in the clubhouse???

Neville,

I think it's funny that you contradict yourself, in one breath your all ok for clubs not allowing certain groups but in the other breath you say it's not right. You can't have your cake & eat it!! http://www.golfshake.com/scripts/ckeditor362/plugins/smiley/images/kiss.gif" title="kiss" width="20" />

Discrimination is still going on for gender, race etc, see my list of examples. I'm not justifiying I'm saying that if those are the rules of the club why should we force them to change??

Are you going to lobby for women to be able to play in the premier league?? Based on your current argument then this is just as big as the Masters tournamount.

Tell me where this would stop if people with your beliefs had there way??

"Also, one thing that hasn't been touched on, why would anyone want to be part of a golf club that excludes women? I'd love to hear the answers to that one!"

If you can't answer that yourself then you've never been married!! http://www.golfshake.com/scripts/ckeditor362/plugins/smiley/images/lightbulb.gif" title="enlightened" width="20" />

John Discrimination has no place in this world I know it goes on but it should not do until the powers that be stamp it out it will go on, we do have a femal linespearson in the prem league so thats a start in that sport,

Plus i think Agusta should change and the only way they would do if people did not play in the masters like groups did not play in sun city many years ago, but many still played as they got paid vast sums to do so

You have to realise, Karl, that the world is made up of many different races, all with entirely different views on everything and what you are asking is impossible.

In fact the majority of the world would slit your throat for a few bob.

Augusta should not change at all, if it does not wish to. You sound like a dictator.

A dictator hang on just fell on the floor with that daft comment john, yes the world is full of strange people just like you but no one person who lives in the western world should not be allowed to do somthing just because a club says so it may be there right but its not right and as you can see with people posting on here

Yes, Karl, there are many on here with a rose tinted spectacle view of the world, but there are also just as many who do not subscribe to your views. This is what life is all about, everyone has differing views. We all know that in all the Northern Cities and Scotland, that the Conservatives are pretty thin on the ground and there are many reasons for this, which I will not go into as this is a golf forum.

You always talk about progress, but have you ever stopped to think how this so called progress of yours has made things worse in so many fields. Has education improved? not one little bit.

How on earth does Augusta and what it stands for interfere with you. It doesn't, you are just getting up on your soapbox to make a little mischief.

Here's a new one. Just seen a local bus offering travel for �1 to students and Doctors or Nurses! Normal travel price is about �3.20 for everyone else.

Get the students part but how come the medial profession get a discount, is this not discriminatory ? For reference the bus route is near the hospital, never seen the one near the police or fire station offer cheap fares.

John Flood - I don't believe that I am contradicting myself at all, and I think that you realise that yourself. You just try to twist my words because you realise that your arguments are flawed, otherwise you wouldn't resort to silly analogies like women playing in the Premiership. That might work if I was telling you that women should play in the PGA, but no one is saying that.

My argument all along has been that we have different expectations depending on the prominence, and that is why Augusta National should be treated differently.

For example, we all expect that MP's and teachers should be held to higher standards as human beings, simply because of the roles they have in society. Should they be seen at the local lap dancing club? It may be harsh, seeing as it is a licensed and legal establishment, but I think that most people would say that they shouldn't be allowed to visit such a place. However, that doesn't mean that Bob the builder shouldn't be allowed to spend his money there. Why is that? It is simply because we have different expectations depending on the profession. They may not actually live up to those standards, but that is why MP's will get the pelters in the press while your average builder can carry on without fear of reprisals.

And yes, I know that MP's have done themselves few favours recently. However, that simply proves my point. If they were bakers who were fiddling their expenses would it have even made a front page of a single newspaper?

Would I expect a waiter at the Ritz to be wearing jeans as he serves me my food? Of course not, but that wouldn't even be considered an issue down at the greasy spoon. Again, the expectations are different.

I am assuming that you can see how these aren't contradictions so far, yes?

Augusta National is in a position of prominence and therefore it should be above reproach. Currently it isn't due to its discrimination against women members. Again, if it was just a little KKK club in some little backwater town in Georgia, carrying on its business without hurting anyone, then it wouldn't be in a position to influence people. That's the difference: Expectations. Again.

You may say that no one gets hurt by Augusta National banning women, but here's a thought. Next time IBM are looking for a new CEO, do they make sure that they choose a man, simply because he gets a membership at Augusta? Getting business colleagues onto the home of The Masters must be a powerful draw, so perhaps a more deserving female misses out next time.

I do think that it's kind of sad that there are people out there who seem to think that it is okay to discriminate simply because a) it's always been that way, or b) because the club rules allow it. Things change and club rules aren't written in stone, and I'm happy that not everyone has such a view of the world when it comes to looking the other way at injustice.

Now john if you had your way the golf world would be full of people with zimmerframes on the course and then what would happen to golf clubs, as for agusta yes it has no affect on me but as others say like me it is not right, and for your information there is plenty of conservatives in northern towns remember not just city centres they are big places towns, also PC has made this country go down hill thats why if you look outside your club you will see other clubs are moving forward in time and not staying in the dark ages like you want to

Please Karl - could you at least attempt to use punctuation and grammar in your posts. It is extremely difficult to read and interpret the meaning when sentences run into each other.

Karl, is it right that there is a Black Police Officers Association yet white Police Offers cannot have one. Also the white Police Officers cannot join the Black Police Officers Assc.

Neville, Spin it how you want but if you think it's ok for a small club to ban female members but not a BIG club then you truly don't fully support your own argument.

All of those expections you mention above are what we as a society impose upon them, it's narrow minded people who think that if you go into a lap dancing club you are a low life pervert. I personally don't care if an MP goes into one of these in his own time spending his own money. You obviousley do & that's where we differ!!

"Next time IBM are looking for a new CEO, do they make sure that they choose a man, simply because he gets a membership at Augusta? Getting business colleagues onto the home of The Masters must be a powerful draw, so perhaps a more deserving female misses out next time."

Do you really think this time around when they appointed a female they thought Augusta would change their rules?? Come on get real.

well john for once i might agree with you on that but you can go on about race in things like they have the mobo awards which i think are for black singers only which i would love to see what happens if they have a white only awards in pop, it is not right but it happens, if you called someone black you get called racist but they call you white its ok for them to do it and people do not make a fuss, it should not matter what colour your skin is or if your male or female everything should be the same

John Flood � So if you had a 6 year old daughter and you knew her male teacher was spending 2 or 3 nights at a lap dancing club, you'd be okay with that? Or maybe if the teacher was female and actually getting her kit off on stage, that would be okay too? Or perhaps if they had appeared in porno films during the previous summer? All of it is allowed legally, yes?

Hmmm, I think a lot of parents wouldn't agree that that's okay for them to do that and then look after their children during the day. I am not sure whether I would call them narrow minded or just cautious, but you obviously think it is the former.

I mean, you say it's okay for MP's so it must be okay for teachers too?

And as you say, those expectations I mentioned previously are all part of the rules that society imposes on us. It is no different to the ones where we're expected to shower once in a while, or to not laugh at a funeral. It's kinda part of what makes us different from the animals.

I remember being on Glasgow buses back in the early 70's and they used to always have a sign inside the bus saying �no spitting�. Nowadays you don't see those signs any more, because you simply wouldn't be expected to spit on the bus, but it was done back then. Based on your comments thus far, I am sure that had you been a regular on those buses back then, then you would have protested the right of people being allowed to carry on, simply because it had always been allowed previously.

Maybe in your eyes society is worse off for not being allowed to smoke in pubs and restaurants? Those damn PC people interfering in the enjoyment of others, eh? I mean, smoking is legal, isn't it?

As for IBM appointing a female CEO this time around, I don't think that the Augusta membership was perhaps thought of as an issue at the time. Now it has been highlighted I would suggest that next time it might be. But that's okay, because it's okay to discriminate against women, isn't it? Well, until someone makes a stand against it anyway.

neville, now this is my opion if a teacher wants to go to a lap dancing club (male) then what he does when not in school time is his freedom also if a female teacher work at night in a lap dancing club then thats her right just because she may be looking after a child during the day far to many techers have been removed from schools for doing things outside of school time even posting pictures on facebook

Well written, David, some real truths at last.

David Cox - I have already said that I don't see anything wrong with single sex schools. I assume you are just agreeing with so, er, thanks, I guess.

Tiger at the Masters. Seriously, do you think that they could have got away with it if they had refused to allow Tiger to play? That script wouldn't even have made it on to an episode of Fantasy Island! I don't believe that I have said that they are racist at the club, that would be hard to prove one way or the other. Waiting until 1991 to allow your first black member suggests that they were, but only they would know for certain.

I have said that there is no difference in exclusion through gender, colour, or race, and no one has come back to give me a single reason why that isn't correct. And yes, I know why you would want men fighting a war rather than have a woman doing that, and there are many other examples that can be brought up, but we're talking about membership of a golf club.

As for your, and I struggle to think of a word more suitable than �ramblings�, about the left, well, that just went completely went over my head. Probably a lack of a posh all boys school in my youth, I guess. Are you saying that I am leftist, and am only advocating the inclusion of all races, colours, and creeds, because I am racist? I don't understand to what purpose that would serve me, or any of my other comrades(!) for that matter.

As for the elitism of Augusta making the event what it is, it's the course that people tune in to watch each year. Yes, the club pays the money to make the course what it is, and I'll agree that the mystique of the place plays a part, but without the course it would just be another golf event. That's it pure and simple.

And yes, part of my agenda is to make a note of everyone who disagrees with me so I can annihilate them all. I have your names and you guys will be first against the wall come the day of reckoning! Seriously, Dude, you need to get out of that stuffy men only golf club and let some daylight in.

I will leave you with a quote made famous by Woolfie Smith: Power to the people!!! (Damn, just gave myself away...)

Btw, I am posting another reply to ensure that I get the 100th post to this thread

Neville, I notice how you refer to a 6 year old daughter & not a son, you obviously assume all male teachers prey on young girls & that boys are safe? This is the narrow minded I referred to in my previous post. As for what they do in their own time that is their business. Anyone wanting to start a profession which involves looking after children have to be cab checked, as far as I know this doesn't include any questions about visiting lap dancing clubs or appearing in adult films unless you can tell me otherwise? I don't see how you can fully back your claim up when you thinks it's ok for one club to not allow women but not ok for Augusta. Regardless of if Augusta is a bigger club surely the same ethics & rules you believe in should apply?

As I have said before I have been involved with Golf in the Leeds area for many years. In a small area of north Leeds you found two Clubs with totally different membership criteria. A Jewish only Club and a Club where you had to be a 'professional person' to be a member. The thing was, even though the membership was restricted, the only criteria for visiting the course was that you were a member of a Club and held an official hcp. You were then made very welcome by the members. Today, the Jewish Club now welcomes all. I was involved with a group who made fun at the "Gin Soaks" at some clubs. Moortown and Garforth GC come to mind. Judy will like these. Garforth held a Prize Presentation in their main lounge where women were not allowed, even for this. We had wives and girlfriends with us so we placed tables in the doorway and the ladies sat on one side and the men the other. Moortown was about Dress Code. Men couldn't wear Denim (jeans), yet the women could. So for one of the local comps a gentleman entered the clubhouse in a smart evening suit with the right leg of the trousers missing. He spoke to several officers of the Clubs for about an hour before he was approached about his attire. "Where in the Rules does it say I can't wear trousers with only one and a half legs?" was asked and no answer could be given. He went and changed. point made.

John F - I mentioned a daughter simply because if a person is heading to a lap dance club then they're more likely to be interested in females, but yes, it certainly doesn't mean that boys can't be likewise at risk. I don't think I was being narrow minded, I was simply trying to keep the typing down to a minimum by not going through all the different scenarios.

I believe that you're right about the CRB check, in that it simply checks convictions.

I have tried to explain why I think that Augusta should be treated differently, but I guess that however many replies we're unlikely to change each others opinion on the subject.

I do think that Augusta National will eventually be forced into accepting women members in the same way that, in my opinion (I have no evidence to back this up), they were forced into accepting black members. If/When that happens, it will be because of its position in the world of golf, while other less prominent male only golf clubs will be allowed to carry on unscathed. As I have said all along, it's because those at the top have to set/uphold the higher standards of society, and that's why they need to be treated differently.

I have read this thread over the past few days, like many others it appears and here is my 2 pennies worth. I fundamentally have a problem with excluding anyone from anything on the grounds of sex, colour, age, religion etc. If it can be shown (like single sex education) that it benefits those using such a system, then i dont have a problem with it. Can anyone tell me how it would benefit my golf game to play only with men from now on ? As somebody else has already pointed out, it is just a matter of like attracting like. As much as i would love to play on some of the male only courses, it doesnt matter to me as i would never want to be a member of a club whose other members held such traditional / outdated views. Why would you not want to mix with women in the bar ? it is beyond me ! There will always be those that hold different opinions to me and they are just as welcome to them as i am to mine.

Why would I not mix with women at the club bar, easy, Tim, they do tend to go with their own and they can be heard wherever they are like a load of old women knitting.

The only time they ever put themselves forward to mingle is when a function is on, otherwise, forget it.

They might wish equality but do nothing to enhance the status quo.

I might add that this is much more prevalent in the last thirty years, before then, at my club in Somerset, everyone mingled. Strange don't you think.

Many Clubs in the past that had restricted access for women in certain areas, also had areas restricted to women too. Any man who dared to enter the Ladies Lounge on a Tuesday or Thursday at a certain Golf Club had a lucky escape if he wasn't seen.

Thanks, David. I do think that sportsmen are generally fairly self centred when it comes to their careers, and will frequently do what is best for them rather than what's best for others. From what I've seen about Tiger in the Hank Haney book, he would happily have taken a green jacket from the KKK if it meant another major on his mantlepiece, and to be fair it is not a cause that has ever reached the heights of freeing Nelson Mandela.

Hey, if only Augusta National had had Nelson Mandela locked up instead, perhaps the club might be open to everyone by now

I'd just like to add that I have enjoyed the verbal sparing with yourself and the others who have contributed to this thread. Even if I haven't agreed with everything people have said, it is good to be shown an alternative view once in a while. Hopefully I haven't upset anyone with any of my comments, as I realise that sometimes the things I write to amuse can be read a little differently to the way that they're writen. No offence was ever meant.

PS I still know I'm right

I think I've stumbled on the real reason that Augusta don't wish to alter their policy on women members: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-I3qREbKqLw&feature=related

It's all change!!! http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/golf/19323577

Great to see, just 3 venues on the Open roster to change their stance now

http://www.golfshake.com/news/view/4503/Augusta_National_admits_two_female_members.html

Just read you post about Moortown and denim David. Denim is still not permitted at Moortown for either gender! Never has been and can't imagine that changing anytime soon. I don't know why someone said it was ok for women. I've seen both men and women asked to leave because they were wearing denim. I was told a story by a lady member who has been there over 30 years. At Moortown the bar runs through through 2 rooms, the mixed lounge and the mens bar. Proir to equality Ladies sat in the mixed and men could go in either. About 30 years ago the bar was only in the mens room and there was a little hatch on the wall in the mixed lounge. If the ladies wanted to buy a drink they had to knock on the hatch and then wait until all men had been served and then they could buy a drink!

Even to this day married women can't open their own account in the pro shop. If you are married and both are members then only the man gets an account. That doesn't bother us as we have joint everything but not all marriages are like that.

Why on earth would anyone want an account in a Pro shop?

Hi John - it is where your winnings go. If you win one of the monthly competitions you win cash which can only be spent in the Pro shop so it goes on your account. In our case my husband tends to keep winning rather than me! Although I did contribute �50 by getting to the mixed foursomes final!

'the people making the fuss are those with a political agenda and we should resist them as much as possible.' I think that David Coxs' comment should not be lost. Most people will respect other clubs/institution rules if they want to participate and if they strongly disagree will not bother. There is discrimination of every type all around us and if we think we are eradicating it then we are being blindingly naive (the discrimination simply 'goes underground)'. Live and let live is about the best we can aspire to. The Masters is traditionally a mans competition. If womwn want a masters then great, let them form a womens masters, I for one would like to watch it. After all most sports have a womens and mens section. The trouble with the masters is that it is one of the most famous competitions in the world so consequently you'll get every chancer wanting to get in on it. Lets not dilute the beauty of the masters. PS some of these so called egalitarians I've met sometimes let their guard down, and are secretly the worst bigots of all.

One thing I see at every private club I have played at is that the women seem to be able to wear pretty much anything they like on the course whilst men have to adhere to the strict dress codes. The one that springs to mind is women wearing t shirts that aren't tucked in, why are they allowed to do that?

It has possible escaped your notice that women's bodies are different from men's - this tends to be the underlying difference for the different attire.

Men wearing tucked in shirts look smart Women wearing tucked in shirts can often look awful because of our hips.

This is why we have different dress codes.

Women are allowed to wear their collared golf shirts untucked if they are designed to be worn that way.

I've never seen anyone wearing a tshirt on the course - tucked or untucked.

Judy, I don't accept that as a valid reason. It may have escaped your notice but not all men are shaped the same either so men wearing tucked in shirts can also look awful. Do you really have different dress codes or is it just that the club are more 'relaxed' with womens attire?

A collared golf shirt can also be known as a t-shirt (derived from the shape of the garment, not it's intended purpose!)

Regarding winnings, Judy, at my club we have a choice, either the Pro shop in the form of a voucher or on ones bevy card used in the clubhouse for drinks etc.