I played in a texas scramble at my club in a charity event at the weekend, the second place team which consisted of the above handicaps came in 3 under par!!

Now we had a great round (7 under) our handicaps 6,9,12 and 18.

Am i being bitter or does anyone else think that these guys could not possbly hit a score like this even in texas scramble format?

Or to look at it another way, with an average handicap of about 26 they shot 29 under their handicap!!

Does everyone else get frustrated with these kind of scores in competitions?

Cheers Angry Chris

Or to look at it another way, with an average handicap of about 26 they shot 29 under their handicap!!

Am i right to calculate that your team had an average h'cap of about 11 and your group shot 18 shots under your handicap!!!!!

???????

I don't mind if they've played every week and thus their handicaps are a true reflection of their ability. Every dog has their day and just occasionally when they're playing together.

if only Brian ....

if they've played every week and thus their handicaps are a true reflection of their ability

Chris, what were the competition rules regarding handicaps.

I played in a Texas Scramble the other week, handicap for the team, 10-13-16-28, we hit 8 birdies, playing of 1/5 gave us 21.4 under par, only enough to finsh second. The winning team had a combined handicap of 90, 18 shots leaving them after the round on -24

Even high handicappers hit the ball well enough now and again, so when there are four balls to choose from then I would imagine at least one would be in the fairway each time, 70% of GUR and just maybe the putting that kept the score down.

If I'm reading your post correctly, you were 4 shots better than the team who were second. And you are questioning their handicaps!

Robert

what would have been the result if alll of the combined handicaps had been Divided by 10 instead of 5.

I don't have a great deal of experience regarding Texas Scramble's but i would have thought that the team handicaps should take into account the actual ability of all those playing in the comp. especially the lower handicap golfers.

Getting the format right for a Texas Scramble is down to each organiser as there is no perfect solution, all i can say is that this game should be more about participation and competition rather than the actual winning.

There are numerous ways to calculate a team handicap, and there should be a handicap limit so that the higher handicap golfer does not get an unfair advantage.  the drawing of teams is probably the fairest way so you don't get a team consisting of all low, middle or high handicappers.

I think like Robert says 'even high handicappers can hit a good shot'  so when you have 4 balls you are just relying on each player having 4-5 good holes each.

I've just had a look at the results from the Golfshake Open and the top 4 players had a gross 67 off handicaps of 18,11,5,13 which would have been 53 points!

and the first group out, although was only 3 players, had handicaps of 5,13,11 and shot a gross 69 (2 under) which stableford points of 46

we have always played off 10% of handicap total, Scrambles usually won by a team of Cat 1 players returning 12-13 under Par.  If your Club is giving a team of 4 two shots on some holes what do you expect.!  Neither of your scores would have been in with a chance. 

Well i guess this is making me look like a miserable b***tard!!!

I just find it hard to believe that you have two single figure handicapers who are playing very well on the day shoot 7 under gross that you can have a group averaging at 26 shoot 4 under gross.

I don't take anything away from peoples abilities and it wasn't very long ago i was playing off a 22 handicap, but only 3 strokes different? really? come on this is why we have a handicap to judge abilities. I know for sure last year when i was off 22 i was not even close to the scores these guys say they put in.

It was done 10% of total but the scores i am talking about are gross not net.

it was a charity event so i wasn't too bothered i just wondered if people agreed with what i believe to be an unlikley score??

No - not unlikely. It is quite common for Texas Scrambles with 10% of combined handicaps to produce sub-60 scores on par 72 courses.  Your single figure handicappers played well on the day but if a high handicapper plays well, he is likely to be playing more shots better in relation to handicap than the single figure guys. It's a fact of life that a high handicapper is much more likely to play 5 shots better than handicap than a Cat3 golfer and even more so for a single figure player.

Chris, I didn't read it as you're a miserable barsteward. It is frustrating when you know your team is made up of better players but that's what the h'cap system is all about. I used to get really cheesed off with the feeling I just couldn't compete in some events. Then one day I posted an unbelieveable 46pts in horrendously windy, rainy, conditions playing off 4. Does that make me a bandit?

I now just accept that exceptional scores happen and I will have another day out like that one day.

Colin,

Just had a quick look on Master Scorecard and even on 1/10 hcp our team score would have still only managed 2nd. One team went round -11 gross, but due to having 3 single figuere (4, 7 and 8)handicappers in the quartet they only had 9.4 shots.

Chris, sorry i'm getting confused

What were the Gross & NETT scores for your team and the 2nd team

Chris, I wasn't calling you miserable either.

Robert am i correct in assuming that at 10% your team would have lost by just 0.3 of a point.

You could have won with 1 shot less or if they played 1 shot more.

my fourball had a combined hc of 67  and we finished -8 gross,

1/5 = 13.4+8 = 21.4under

1/10= 6.7+8 = 14,7under

winners had a combined hc of 90,

1/5 = 18+6 = 24under

1/10= 9+6 =15

although had 1/10 been used, we would have been down to third

one group shot  -11 and would have recieved 4.7 giving them the win on 15.7 under

due to this result I picked up my first brown envelope with the tidy sum of £6 in..lol

I guess it's a start

Right guys i'll try to sort any confusion.

Forget any handicaps these guys went round 3 under GROSS!

They apparently shot 5 birdies 2 bogeys and the rest were pars

We went round with 7 birdies 1 eagle 2 bogeys.

Brian i'm glad you understand, the whole day was for charity and i had a great day we all enjoyed ourselves but i can't help that feeling that people cheat!

For me days like this are just for the enjoyment and as the pro said when we handed our card in 'wow great score guys but don't expect to place anywhere 60% of these players are from other clubs and we don't know them'

With this statement we realised we weren't in for anything but i still cannot get my head around why people cheat?

The guys in front of us said the players in front of them were shooting from the forward tee's for 7 holes until they noticed and told them! their answer was 'well its too hard from back there'!!!!

It's not sour grapes i just wish everyone was honest, i guess i have chosen a sport where self regulation leaves it all wide open to cheating?

Grumpy Chris 

You know that cheaters will cheat, even when they are being watched. Nothing changes there.

TheLyth       Although taken from another thread i find this comment appropriate.

it sounds like all these golfers are nomads who go around playing comps.  These people are out there and always will be, best advice is stay away from comps where outsiders are playing.  As for some playing from wrong tees, that should have been reported to organiser and action taken. 

At the end of the day you do not need to compete against this type of person (i won't call them golfers because they clearly openly cheat and do not possess and ethics or morals and therefore can not be classed as golfers).

If someone needs to cheat to win then that is all you need to know to judge the person. 

Don't allow yourself to get caught out like that again whether its for charity or not, when you see a cheat deal with it do not ignore it.

Stick to club comps. in future where the bandits have less shots on their handicaps.

And YES you do have a genuine gripe against such scores.  But again, it is down to the organisers to have a limit on the shots allowed (sounds like it would not have stopped them winning) but if a team of 4 are only entitled to have 2 players above 20 in the team then that also helps by forcing them to have lower handicaps. 

I have seen nomads on my local course in these types of comps. and have to say i have not been impressed with what i have seen, and i will not play in any comp. that allows such cheats to compete without better supervision.

Seems your problem lies with your Organisers,  how could those players have beaten you when they only recorded scores on eleven holes ?.

In a Stableford,  the 7 holes played from the wrong tees return zero points, in a Medal they are disqualified.

If you or the Group in front of you (who observed this) did not report them for playing off the wrong tees then you shouldn`t complain.

If the Ctee had been made aware of this then they MUST apply the correct penalties.

I don't feel that their score of three under should be queried. As you are well aware from reading these forums the majority of 28 handicappers hit the ball 300 yards and having four attempts at every shot, then anything is possible.

Don't forget the four attempts for each putt on the greens and you will realise that their score was not out of the way at all.

When we play a texas scramble at our club the winning team are normally around the 58 - 59 mark.

Having four high handicap players going under par wouldn't bother me that much.

Russ

In 4 ball scramble's i've played the group that is going to win is usually going to need finish in the late 50's nett, off 10% combined the winning group in this case finished on about 61 nett, doesn't seem too outrageous to me

I think what Chris is trying to say is that he thinks a team of 4 with an average handicap of 26 that shoots a net score of 29 under par are badly handicapped.

That equates to nett 43 on a Par 72 course.  That is a wee bit under the 58-59 mark now.

All i can say is, you should gte there names and post them on this site for all to see.  I would be interested to see their handicap certificate and which golf club is responsible for these golfers handicaps.

Next time you play a round on your own Chris, give yourself 4 chances on every shot. You should go round under par. Thats the way it is. All it takes is for one of the four 25+ handicappers to hit the green in regulation, they've then got 4 chances at the putt, reading the line every time. Texas scramble is all about birdies, not pars. They should have played off 10.6, so 3 under gross isn't great. Just a quick link to our last 4 man scramble results:

http://www.masterscoreboard.co.uk/results/CompetitionTeamResult.php?&CWID=2129&Competition=409

I played in a 2 man scramble with my 12 year old son as my partner who plays off 23. Coming down the 17th we were even par, we ended up 2 over gross and came 5th so good scores are achievable with just 2 players.

Colin i realise that 3 under gross seems a long way offf for an individual playing off 26 but that's why it's usually 10% handicap allowance for 4 balls and even then the winner is usually, as stated previously, well under that. Really, i don't think you can infer any banditry to this result.

I think Colin seems to have grasped exactly what i am saying!

I am quite surprised that a lot of people here seem to think that is not too hard to believe, no one at my club that i have spoken to about this has made any of the comments some of you guys have made.

I'm surprised at John's comment about a 26 handicapper being able to hit a ball 300 yards? i for one have never met one who can! and if they could can they do it every time maybe one in 18?

It's pretty clear that we are all not going to agree on this, i will leave it with this comment:

our average handicap 11.2

thier average handicap 26.5

difference of 15.3

they shot only 4 strokes more than us

We had what we considered a very very good round (in extremely windy conditions)

Mildly irratated Chris

Chris

We play quite a few Texas Scrambles at our club over the winter months but have very specific rules about teams and handicaps. 

First off, the teams are always done by draw and are normally made up of 1 player under 10 handicap, 2 players in the range 10 - 18 and 1 player up to 28.  This evens out the teams nicely.

To prevent one dominant player taking over we specifiy that you have to use each persons drive at least 3 times and also each player's tee shot on one of the par 3 holes has to count.  The player whose ball is selected can't then play the next shot so apart from the tee shot you only ever have three people playing.

It makes it quite tactical deciding when to use the higher handicap golfer's drive (unless they hit it 300 yards ?!?!?!) and it can get edgy towards the end when 1 or 2 players still need to get a drive in with only 2 or 3 holes to go!.

Handicaps are worked out as 1/8 of the combined total.

I have to say this system works quite well.

I'm surprised at John's comment about a 26 handicapper being able to hit a ball 300 yards? i for one have never met one who can! and if they could can they do it every time maybe one in 18?

A tongue in cheek comment, Chris, which you did not pick up on because you have not been on this forum very long. Exaggeration in claimed distances is very common on this site.

"As you are well aware from reading these forums the majority of 28 handicappers hit the ball 300 yards "

Not Johns opinion guys it's what many high Hcp'rs have claimed on here over the years,he was joking.

I,d be miffed and i'm sceptical of the score given the hcp's ,but nothing suprises me these days!http://www.golfshake.com/scripts/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/whatchutalkingabout_smile.gif" title="indecision" width="20" />

When ever i've played in club orgainised scrambles it's usually the cat 1's that  dominate.

cp's When evereWwwwcvvwevv

Edit: didn't realise you'd posted JP

Chris and Colin seem to have ended up as a besieged minority obsessed with the average handicap. The average handicap of the 4-man team is pretty irrelevant as they are not playing as individuals. A 28-handicapper is going to play lots of bad shots but as long as one of the group can make a good shot out of the 4 made, then there is a chance of a good score. Many of the other posts show that sub-60 rounds with 10% of combined handicaps are pretty much expected and if a team of high handicappers can manage it, good luck to them.

i have to say that i have tried to understand the actual scores of these golfers, and i have found it difficult to come to a credible score that these 4 played.  

Chris states - Or to look at it another way, with an average handicap of about 26 they shot 29 under their handicap! &  Forget any handicaps these guys went round 3 under GROSS!

This has clouded the facts for me as it misrepresents the facts.  Chris must surely be meaning a Nett score of 3 under.

This team must have had a Gross score of  7+, but had a joint handicap total of 106 divided by 10 giving them a revised handicap of 10.6 shots.   The difference between player handicap of 26.5 and 10.6 only equates to 15.9, which is about half the 29 shots Chris initially thought.  A team of 4 high handicap golfers should be able to shoot 16 under their average handicap in a texas scramble if a couple are decent golfers as they should be able to play nearer to the 20 mark.. 

for this format the handicap that the group has is 10.6

they shot 3 under gross

therefore 13.6 better than handicap on the day

29 better is a nonsense

if a group of cat 1 of handicap basically 1 for these purposes shot 13 better then they are also nett 59

Seen it before, will see it again.

Colin

Chris confirmed in one of his posts that the score was 3 under gross. Assuming a par of 72, this would be a gross 69. The normal 4-man team handicap is 10% of the combined which, in this case, is 10.6. Their nett score is then 58.4 and that is pretty much in line with other winning scores mentioned in posts on this subject.

I have checked historical Scramble results at our place and a nett 58.4 would not have been out of place. We have had winning scores better than 58.4 and all players had genuine current handicaps and one of the teams had lower handicaps than Chris's team.

"Then one day I posted an unbelieveable 46pts in horrendously windy, rainy, conditions playing off 4. Does that make me a bandit?"

YES IT DOES http://www.golfshake.com/scripts/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/shades_smile.gif" title="cool" />

james, confusing scores provided allow bothof us to assume different scores for the team of 4, which is understandable. 

i have said earlier that Gross score has been mistaken for the Nett score, and if you review your calculation again you will find that if the 4 man team scored 3 under gross less there 10.6 handicap shots this gives them 13.6 under par and 1st place because with nyour calculation Chris's team shot 7 under less there 4.5 shot allowance only gives them 11.5 under par and 2nd place when calculated your way. 

So the winning score was Nett 7 under and the 2nd team hit Nett 3 under which are no where near the extravagant scores first thought.  Thats my understanding of the figures provided anyway.

2 things

Should all entries of a Texas scramble not be spread out so all the low handicaps are apart as are the high handicappers as good as is practicable.

In texas scramble, can the rest of your team look down the line when you are putting to get a read. This is not allowed in singles. Or is it a total golfing no no.

Dave CAC handed Geordie.

It is usual for the groups to be selected with a mix of handicaps.

Any amount of checking line of putts is allowed I think, as it's your putt as well. The R&A of course don't recognise texas scramble so a club or society can make up rules at will!

If you are getting upset about a score in texas scramble then maybe its time to have a few weeks off! Surely its just for fun. 

A technical question about hcp allowance. When it's 4 man Texas Scramble and the organiser, me, has to allocate a hcp allowance for an odd 3 man team, what is the answer. For instance if the 4 man team gets 1/10 should the 3 man team get 1/6 ? ( I balance the teams as much as possible )

1/6 or 1/5 with a mandatory 5 tee shots each.

Sorry, there is no fun without rules; there isn't even a game without rules.

The kid who picks up the ball during a soccer kick around because things are going badly for him and then accuses everyone else of being too serious is in fact the one who is really serious.

Formality is fun; dressing up in evening clothes rather than just being a slob. 

Playing golf with people who are not playing by the rules is tiresome; not fun at all.

Thanks for quick response, J.T.

Whether it will keep people happy is another matter.

You won't keep them happy. If a 3-man team wins, the 4-man teams will say unfair handicap allowance. If they don't, the 3-man team will say unfair as they only get 3 goes at putts.

We had the '1 group of 3' dilemma for an informal comp a few weeks ago.

We played 1,2,3 Stableford format (1st hole 1 shot to count, 2nd 2 and 3rd 3 etc etc). Our group of 4 were on fire and we got a massive 94 points and were very happy with that playing off 3/4 handicaps. Especially as we had 3 higher handicaps which means we lose a lot of shots.

Couldn't believe it when we didn't win! The group of 3 (off full handicaps) got 96 points!  Still - to win they all had to play very well on the 3 shot holes so fair play to them. I'm not bitter - I got my cadbury's creme egg consolation prize!

David, I posted this when the original thread was started -

We play quite a few Texas Scrambles at our club over the winter months but have very specific rules about teams and handicaps. 

First off, the teams are always done by draw and are normally made up of 1 player under 10 handicap, 2 players in the range 10 - 18 and 1 player up to 28.  This evens out the teams nicely.

To prevent one dominant player taking over we specifiy that you have to use each persons drive at least 3 times and also each player's tee shot on one of the par 3 holes has to count.  The player whose ball is selected can't then play the next shot so apart from the tee shot you only ever have three people playing.

It makes it quite tactical deciding when to use the higher handicap golfer's drive (unless they hit it 300 yards ?!?!?!) and it can get edgy towards the end when 1 or 2 players still need to get a drive in with only 2 or 3 holes to go!.

Handicaps are worked out as 1/8 of the combined total.

For three man teams, the handicap allowance is reduced to 1/6.  However, all three can play each shot (the same as a four man team after the tee shot).  It seems to work pretty well judging by the results over the years. Occassionally, a three man team might win but not too often.

Richard

Thanks, Richard, I've taken notes and will indeed put it into practice next winter if needed. David