Exactly what the title says.  What should be allowed?  What is making the game more about science and less about sport?

• GPS - You can pace it out so is it really making a difference
• Cavity backed irons - Is it stopping players learning how to strike the ball properly or just making the game more enjoyable for the masses?
• Massive drivers - Are they replacing ability with science?
• Electric trollies - Are they just for the lazy?
• Multi-layer balls - Why?  A rubber ball with a plastic cover works, why do we need 3, 4 or even 5 piece balls?

Just some starter subjects there.  Feel free to add your own and debate.  ALL OPINIONS ARE VALID.  Don't get personal with each other.  Sensible debate

GPS, adds nothing to the game whatsoever, the average player is not skilled enough to be able to take advantage of the knowledge.

Cavity backed irons do make off centre strikes look reasonabley good, but give very little satisfaction.

Massive drivers should be banned.

Electric Trollies slow the game up, but then, no one wants to play golf at a reasonable pace anymore, anyway.

Multi layer balls are not new, a return to wound balls and balata would really make the game interesting again.

Umm well looks like the only one I don't use is an electric trolley. Where's the door?

This though is clearly why I am not yet a tour player and need to rectify this omission pronto Or I guess I could pay somebody to lug them round for me, clean them, line up putts, tell me yardages, positions of bunkers, operate the GPS etc. etc.

Seriously I just saw on Twitter the editor of Golf Monthly is calling for a ban on long putters given the latest win with one just now by Webb Simpson over in the USA so we can stick that on the list too. Being 6'4.5" a long putter could well suit me anyway! Do they help too much then? Never seen anybody using one.

Another crime to golfing purity of mine is owning a 4 iron hybrid and currently lack a 3 iron in my bag altogether. Sure I could go on - supposedly waterproof Nike golf shoes.

Interesting and at times amusing remarks:

Chris,  Are you of a mind that  modern drivers, through science, enable one to drive better? I would not argue about longer - but overall better? Modern drivers are 3-4" longer now than there were in the 1960s and largely today's golfer does not possess a driver swing. The club is swung like an iron and so naturally, with such a long club,  a slice ensues.  Also, players of every ability level find it much harder to hit a 460cc driver head centre face than a much smaller counterpart. A large head shrouds the ball  and makes alignment judgement difficult. Likely totally opposite to what most players imagine to be the case.   Most of today's golfers would drive much better with a 42" long driver, having say a 360cc head.

Tim, have  you encountered problems vis a vis falling out of trolleys?   I could sell you special golf tie in rope at £4. / metre. Would such help?

The 'restricting technology in sport' argument is an interesting one on many fronts:

Essentially all sports embrace most new technology with open arms.  But golf is not unique in restricting it. We see this in other sports too and memorable examples come to mind.  In 1970 Formula One's ban on the Chaparal 2J sucker car, and in my mind the tragic change to the construction rules concerning the javelin.  Such wiped out Uwe Hohn's world record of 344 feet. Imagine holding a world record only to have it taken away from you by a Rules' Committee not because of anything done wrong by you!

The intrinsic problem with restricting new technology is that most of it is restricted post facto. In other words various sports have inadequate pre-clearance rules and procedures in place. New technology is introduced usually after  substantial investment has been made on design, patenting, set up, production and marketing costs. When post facto banning takes place (through no fault of the designers / manufacturers)  fortunes and jobs can be lost at the stroke of a pen.

The 'stroke of the pen' is never undertaken by a single person, but by a committee. Committees are by their nature generally spineless and middle of the road. Consequently the vast majority of new technology is passed and any restrictions relatively minor in the overall scheme of things, with new technology gaining more and more inroads through the 'snowball effect.'

Just as Formula One racing bears no resemblance to what it was fifty years ago, nor does golf, or indeed many other sports.  Is such a bad thing?  That is an extremely difficult question to answer.

Today’s sportsmen have no recollection of ‘how it was,’ nor do they largely wish to know. They live in a high technology world, embrace it at every opportunity, and possibly get confused by anyone suggesting that it does not belong on the golf course. It belongs in all other parts of their lives, achieves an almost godlike status, and to suggest banning God in certain areas appears to them essentially ridiculous.

Banning new technology on the grounds of safety possibly has some merit. But, the honest ones amongst us will admit to watching motor racing hoping to witness a crash, and the more crashes the better.  See an air ambulance land  – even better.  Arguably, how can one reasonably ban it on any other ground?  

Because it fundamentally changes the game and provides an unfair advantage?

Well every game has already been fundamentally changed and the snowball effect has become the status quo. Unfair advantage? Well everyone can potentially buy.

The whole question involves such deep philosophical issues that often these override any significant new equipment  effects, and any new restriction amounts to no more than token meddling.

Look at each new invention on its merit?

Possibly, but we are far past the point of being able to ‘see the wood for the trees.’

Does it really matter? I personally think that, at this late stage, no it does not.    

Chris,

All of the above you mention in the right hands will help / improve your game. Times are changing & even the R&A are acknowledging this by changing / adding new rules all the time.

I think before people criticise them they should try them, how else can you base an informed decision??

I'll continue to use whatever I see fit to make this game enjoyable, in my opinion, & won't be swayed by anyone.

John,

Are you saying that you will use non-conforming equipment? I doubt this, but such is what your post suggests as 'anyone' includes the R. & A.

GPS - You can pace it out so is it really making a difference.

You can pace it out if you have reliable markers and guides, which at the majority of courses I play we do not. The gps gives you the yardage as you approach your ball so in the right hands speeds up the game.

 Cavity backed irons - Is it stopping players learning how to strike the ball properly or just making the game more enjoyable for the masses? 

It's reasonable to say that without the revenue from the masses, golf courses would close and become the luxury of the wealthy. Personally I play bladed irons, but also carry a hybrid...diff tools for diff jobs imo.

Massive drivers - Are they replacing ability with science?

To some extent yes, but I don't think that's a bad thing if more people enjoy the game. There is equipment for everyone if you look beyond the mass market replicas of each competitor.

Electric trollies - Are they just for the lazy?

Don't use one myself but don't have any issue with them tbh. Helpful for those who would struggle to carry. 

Multi-layer balls - Why? A rubber ball with a plastic cover works, why do we need 3, 4 or even 5 piece balls?

That's a little like saying a Daewoo Matiz works fine, why would you want something else?

•GPS - Never seen the value in it myself. Working out yardage and taking other factors into consideration is all part of the fun to me

•Cavity backed irons -Both probably. I have moved from cavity backs onto Pro Combo as i want to move my game along. However, i wouldn't expect a new starter to start trying to play with blades. They are more forgiving and help improve scores, but they aren't going to turn anyone into Tiger Woods. They improve enjoyment for beginners which are ultimately the lifeblood of the game, so i take them for what they are and will never criticise anyone for using them

•Massive drivers - As above for me. There needs to be a limit somehwere but the games has moved on with technology. I don't think many would like us still to be playing with wooden shafted clubs? Calling for all new technology to be banned begs the question "where in time to you revert back to".

 •Electric trollies - Not for me, i need the exercise. If my playing partner wants to use one, i call him a girl... but there are plenty of people who couldn't get around the course without one so no problem for me

•Multi-layer balls - Why not use feathers wrapped in leather? As with the driver argument, the game moves on. if it didn't it would die.

• Hybrids - i use three of them. Ideally i'd use long irons but can't hit them consistently at the moment (I am working on it). Id rather enjoy my game with a hybrid than not with an iron - accepting that to improve to where i want to be i'll need to be able to hit long irons well.

Now i am not saying that all new advances are good and there need to be assessed and restricted where appropriate. However, the clubs and balls don't make players great, their technique and what they do with the tools do.

I'm find it quite interesting how some players think that switching to bladed / progressive bladed will improve their game?

I think if we were to look at the majority of the pros on the European tour they probably don't play with bladed clubs??

There is a member at my course & he switched from cavity back to the Pro Combos. He did this because his handicap was dropping & he was enjoying his golf. Six months down the line his handicap has increased & he is at the verge of giving up because he can't hit them!!!!

Before switching I would recommend custom fitting. Works everytime

John,

I'm find it quite interesting how some players think that switching to bladed / progressive bladed will improve their game?

You also might find it interesting that when only blades were made that the standard of play overall was far superior to that of today.

I think if we were to look at the majority of the pros on the European tour they probably don't play with bladed clubs??

This is because the modern game is played through the air and only straight shots are needed.

There is a member at my course & he switched from cavity back to the Pro Combos. He did this because his handicap was dropping & he was enjoying his golf. Six months down the line his handicap has increased & he is at the verge of giving up because he can't hit them!!!!

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought I could remember you yourself playing with the Nike Pro Combos, or am I mixiong you up with Wayne.

Before switching I would recommend custom fitting. Works everytime

Probably good for ones ego, but will not make that much difference to anyones game.

John,

Can't agree with you that proper club fitting does not make a difference.

Off the shelf clubs are not even spine aligned. For the benefit of newcomers the following MPEG explains:

http://www.clubmakerschoice.com/page1.html

Here's Tom Wishon's comments on the subject:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbIRBJ2Seds

Ivan, so what you are trying to say is that I would have been a better player than scratch with all this newly introduced technology. I doubt it. I really cannot see a spine aligned club  making me able to shoot 63 instead of a 64 at The Berkshire (Red).

This technology might be necessary in the world of Long Driving, especially when your fairway is only forty yards wide and you have to be on it to score.

John,

You are correct I was playing with the Pro Combo's & my game wasn't going anywhere. Don't get me wrong, good shots were good but slightly mis-hit shots were very bad. That set had the S300 shafts in them which was totally wrong for me.

I got custom fitted for the Ping i15's & I've never looked back. This combined with lessons has seen my handicap drop a hole shot & if not for a few bad course management decisions would of been a lot more.

Can't disagree that the game years ago was probably better played but the game has opened itself up to the masses which can only be good for the sport overall.

Until people of my age are in their box, we will always have these differences of opinion, John.

No one would be more thrilled than me to see you really move your handicap down, but I have now known you for four years and, even with all this new equipment that you seem to rave about, you have not taken that great leap forward into single figures, which I know you are well capable of doing.

Perhaps your course management is the problem.

I really would like to see you down there before I pop off.

John,

If I was to enter all my 'social' games into golfshake I would probably be near to single figures. The problem is being a member of a club the monthly medals are only every month from April to October.

So even if I can make all of these dates, & bearing in mind the courses are recovering from the winter in the first few months, I need to be shooting under my handicap under medal conditions. You also have to take into account the SS on the day. Some months I have shot a few under my hcap but the SS has been lowered so really no big change.

I have just moved clubs & there is almost a qualifying comp on every weekend so I'm hoping to play a lot more competitive golf so I'll see what I can do to make your wish come true

John, I remember your game improving with the Nikes,you certainley hit them very well when I played with youhttp://www.golfshake.com/scripts/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/broken_heart.
gif" title="broken heart" width="20" /> . Nothing like falling in love with a new set though is therehttp://www.golfshake.com/scripts/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/heart.gif" title="heart" width="20" /> Never thought Id find love in a 23yr old set!

Don't think I will ever play a cavity club again, mind numbingly boring !! (you have to be a blade player to understand that statement)http://www.golfshake.com/scripts/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/regula
r_smile.gif" title="smiley" width="20" /> Thaks JP.

I want the chalenge of having less forgiveness. I had some old Wilson deep cavity clubs and to be honest it was getting a bit easy (now nowhere near scractch but confidently into single figures for most rounds). My handicap is going up now, but i certainly feel like im playing with a better club. I can work the ball a lot more, and i rightly get punished for a bad contact. I'll take the higher scores, and only the low ones when i deserve them. Not saying that this should be everyones view, just mine.

I had a 23 over the other day, with the Wilsons probably would have been half that... but then where's the fun. Being a sportsman for my whole life i want to feel the highs and the lows that are coming, and work on improving to cut out the lows.

Saying that, if i could get my bloody putter to start working again (43 in a recent round) maybe i would be back in the single figures!!!

John P.,

I do not know what you could have scored in the past with equipment tuned to your game.  But I would very much enjoyed caddying for you that day.

What I am saying is what I said to you on this forum several months ago:

If when we next meet you show me any driver which you currently use I guarantee that I can build you a replacement which will enable you to hit significantly longer with the same amount of effort.

Should I fail (and you would be the sole arbiter) I will present the driver to you at absolutely no cost.

I'm not willing to pointlessly argue, particularly with a good  friend. Instead I will back up everything I claim or pay the price. Enough said.

Ivan, I am not using a driver, currently, as I have no faith in the ones I possess.

I will have to pop up to you soon, as I know you would be able to help me.

Technology makes a difference for us mere mortals but in reality our h'cap negates the opportunity to knock it round in less than 60. There is the odd amatuer who knocks it over fairway bunkers, and most pro's, but courses are getting longer to compensate. Again, go back 30 years and some amatuers and most pro's knocked it over anyway.

Blades 'v' cavities; blades make working the ball a lot easier, assuming you're capable but the modern ball also resists going off line... I must have a bad batchhttp://www.golfshake.com/scripts/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/cry_smile.g
if" title="crying" width="20" />

Big headed drivers; they help the higher handicappers more, and good luck to them, but its harder to work a ball of the bu99ers. The one you find you can fade with is invariably harder to draw with.

GPS makes little difference to us amatuers but hey, just like belly putters et al, they add to the hype and fun.

Elec trolleys; thank god for them. At 18 I could do 54 holes a day carrying. Now, thanks to age and infirmity I can manage 54 holes a month and thats with using an elec trolley. If it wasn't for elec trolleys I wouldn't still be playing... but why the macho who carrys and who trolleys anyway??

Again, have to disagree that GPS makes little difference to us amateurs, I suppose it depends on the make & model, my Skycaddie SGX is superb.It's like having a little caddie with you

@Dave Ley - Was hitting the Nikes well when my game was spot on, the problems started when I wasn't firing on all cyclinders.

I do take them up the range now & again as I do think hitting a ball out of the middle of a forged club is a sweet feeling.

@Sanders - yes, only use things allowed by the R&A.

The only Technology I think that can really help your game is the amount of slow-mo swings that are available to watch, be it putting ,chipping or full swings . Visualisation is paramount in our ability to learn we're born with it unfortunately as we get older it's not so natural ,but can be tapped into.

I have a few questions to ask all you gps supporters.

Can you all hit the exact yardage that your gps gives you everytime?

What is your strike rate for being within 5yds either way for the distance you are hitting?

Hiow close do you get to the flag with all your shots into the green?

What was your strike rate for the above when not using gps and just calculating or wildly guessing the distances?

Colin , I think you may be waiting sometime for answers on this one , http://www.golfshake.com/scripts/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/devil_smile.gif"
title="devil" width="20" />

Their handicaps tell you the answer, Colin.

Hi Dave,

i know, but i was told you sometimes have to be cruel to be kind.

As for stopping technology, you have to let technology develop at its own pace, all you can do is design the golf course to penalise the big hitters if they are not accurate.    As for gps- ask courses to put discreet distance markers on the course at 75, 100, 150, 200, 250.  That should reduce the need for the gps and would quicken play for some..

Buggy's amd trolleys are required for the lazy, unfit, elderly and incapable.

Golf club technology should be readily available to all other competitors after 6 months, All Patents should expire after 6 months.  Yes,  before you say it, that would cripple the golfing industry as we know it today, but it would make it more consumer friendly.

With a very gullible public, times will never change when it comes to the latest model of golf club with all the marketing hype attached to it.

It is interesting that the better strikers of a golf ball can hit my very old persimmon, the exact same distance as their 460cc monstrosity, Dave Ley will confirm this, as he has used my old wooden clubs.

Of course with the shortages of persimmon wood and the available craftsmen capable of making them, manufacturers, in their infinite wisdom, decided on the metal race, and that is exactly what it is, a race to keep one step ahead of the opposition. The game, and the new players to this wonderful game have suffered for this. There is no such thing as finesse as it cannot be produced with the equipment of thye day.

Of course if one has never played with the old equipment they do not realise what they have been missing.

I haven't been on these forums for a while and I now know why. The lack of respect for other peoples opinions is poor to say the least. Live and let live, be that with a trolley, gps, blades blah blah blah.

Yes I could carry my blades, persimmon and balatas around in a bag that tugs on my shoulder, scratching my head to find a yardage, I might even like it. But ill pass this time.

Exactly the attitude that has dragged this game down.

Colin,

I think I have answered most of these questions in the other thread so I won't repeat them again.

Hiow close do you get to the flag with all your shots into the green? On some occasions about an inch like tonight when I almost eagles our par5 3rd. 

What was your strike rate for the above when not using gps and just calculating or wildly guessing the distances? Not as much as it is now which is why I use it. But at least I can answer this, you on the other hand only have experience of not using one so can't give a biased opinion.

Are you going to stop using your hybrid as they are obviously for the lesser player who cannot hit long irons??

Anserwed quick enough for you?

John, I know we've touched on this before, and I dearly love my Titliest persimmon, but I'd rather fool myself into thinking I'm still half decent and play with modern technology. At the end of the day golf is about the lowest score.

However, the feel of a sweetly struck blade is just fantastic but sadly one not struck quite right doesn't do any favours. I wouldn't go back to blades but I'd like to, and I just wouldn't go back to a persimmon driver full stop.

The game hasn't been dragged anywhere. Its just not the preserve of the elite any more, surely a good thing.

It never was the game of the elite, Dave. I was a trucker, hardly an elitist job, wouldn't you say.

Brian, I am quite sure that with your current handicap you would most certainly be able to still play with persimmons and blades.

I parted with my blades only about a year or so ago and they went to a good home. our own David Ley now uses them and he is a beautiful striker of a golf ball. If only his short game could match his long game.

Thanks for your reply Floody, appreciated, i was wanting some other gps suporters to come in with their assessment of how much the gps has improved their game but still waiting.

As for thequestions i asked,

Can you all hit the exact yardage that your gps gives you everytime?

What is your strike rate for being within 5yds either way for the distance you are hitting?

Hiow close do you get to the flag with all your shots into the green?

What was your strike rate for the above when not using gps and just calculating or wildly guessing the distances?

I don't doubt your reply Floody, but i have to ask. have you only ever finished close to the flag courtesy of your gps?

Only you know the answer to this, Why did you find it difficult to effectively calculate distances manually because i have calculate distance in my pre-shot routine so i don't forget.  if it works for you Floody then fine use it, but, personally and i think a few others on here believe that their is no justifiable need for these so called aids, unless a player has great difficulty calculating distances or is a very good player who needs exact yardages.  If it has really helped you - GREAT, i hope the cost is worth it, but how much improvement has it really brought you that you could not have gained by other means.  I know TIME available to play and practice is an issue and if this device compliments the way you play then continue, all i can add is that these devices have to surely take away some part of your game.

Golf is a hand-eye coordinated sport, remove the visual processes that calculate distances by using a device has got to be detrimental to this process, and you are only replacing this process with a number that your brain now has to learn to identify with and coordinate swing instructions to your hands and arms etc to hit that stated distance.   Outcome is Robotic swingers.  Where is that instinctive feel for the shot, feel has to come from using all your senses available.  I do not deny gps can at times provide you with a more accurate distance, undeniably true, but is it worth it for how many times this occurs in ant given round, hit the centre of the fairway, see the 150 marker, bang, lay-up or hit into the green, simple.  Now, hit off line and have no idea of distance because you don't use your senses then gps will have to be relied upon.

Not as much as it is now which is why I use it. But at least I can answer this, you on the other hand only have experience of not using one so can't give a biased opinion.

Are you going to stop using your hybrid as they are obviously for the lesser player who cannot hit long irons??

As for using my 15* hybrid and not a long iron, i very rarely use this club, i play Driver, 5 wood and 6,7,8,9,pw,sw,lob. I do have a 5 iron in my bag for selective shot making when the wind is a problem, i can hit every Par 4 in 2 with the above clubs,  so i have no need for 2,3 or 4 iron and my 15* hybrid presently is in my bag as a last resort for the par 5's if i need a long low shot, but placement is usually the requirement and the 5 wood-6-8iron are there to lay-up with.  I am considering looking for a good fairway 3 wood so as to take out the hybrid but money tight so i'll have to wait.  I can hit into every Par 4 with my preferred clubs without the hybrid.

As for myself hitting long irons, i use to play down to a 2 iron (240 yds) but had to change my swing and approach to playing, now i very rarely go for max distance with all my shots, i prefer positional play off the tee and into the fairway, lay-up before bunkers if needed, and look to play 180 ish into greens on Par 5's.  It was only in the last couple of months that i put my Driver back in my bag, was using a 21* 5 wood off the tee.  As for me being a lesser player, i confess that is true, but i am a lesser player due to my body being ready for the knackers yard years ago.  But i am only a lesser player to myself because i have not managed to maximise my own potential from my own abilities within.

JP - maybe its more about atitude rather than status.

You may well be right, David.

David,

I concur with JP: Golf was never a game for the 'elite' although in the past it may have been wrongly perceived as being such.

What it was (certainly in the 1960s) - for me - was a far more relatively expensive game with equipment costing far more money. As a lad I always had around four part-time jobs and my non-matching set of irons were replaced one club at a time. It took me around a year to complete the set.  Then on reaching the age of sixteen years, and my club's junior rates ending, I just could not afford to continue. My then annual salary from East Midlands Electricity Board being a mere £305. per annum. A working man on a good wage was in a far better position to fund his game than a young office trainee.

Golfers then were far more committed to the sport and generally worked hard to progress, and their average handicap was far lower than nowadays, even though equipment was not up to today's standards. 

Whatever one's background, when at the club, ALL golfers behaved as gentlemen and there lies a fundamental difference to today's 'players.'

P.S. Does any GolfShaker own any of the Scottish made 'Forecastle' irons which I saved up so hard to buy so many years ago?

Whatever one's background, when at the club, ALL golfers behaved as gentlemen and there lies a fundamental difference to today's 'players.'

You have hit the nail right on the head there, Ivan.

read somewhere recently that 30 years ago the average club golfer had a handicap of 17 and today with all the technology etc the average club golfer still has a handicap of 17 ! so cant of made that much difference. Personally i think if you get enjoyment from something its a good thing, jsut bought myself a new putter, not made any difference to my putting ability (dire) but gave me a nice warm feeling when i bought it !

I would have to agree on the behaviour point of view. I have just joined a new course to save a  few quid and althrough it is nice and close to home, the standards are low, not in play but behaviour. Players jumping in front of me to play from any tee near the club house that was "free" at the time.  I fear it might be a little to early to make a complaint to the club secretary!

Back to my point, I have ben criticised for embracing new technology, I don't understand why. Are some of the players that love the old equipment still hand washing their clothes or using a horse and cart to get to work. No.  Times do move on and a little mutual respect goes a long way in my book.

I don't think anyone is criticising you David, just differing opinions on whether the new technology is making any difference, apart from out of your wallet.

The new players to this game do not wish to hear about the history and records of this game down the years, no one is interested in reading about Henry Cotton whot shot 65 round Royal St, Georges in 1934, it is just dismissed out of hand, yet this alone goes some way to confirming the belief that the game, with all its new technology still cannot better those of yesteryear.

In fact, if they were still competing today, they would still be at the top.

As regards to hand washing I have quite a few items of clothing that have never seen a washer or drier. They tend to last longer that way. Old army boys know how to do a bit of dhobying.

I don't own a GPS and wouldn't buy one. If I am playing with someone who has one I might ask the yardage but if my eyes tell me different I'll go with my eyes. They are fun if you wallop a drive to see how far it goes. That's about it for me.Rather than embrace new technology I am actually more keen to try out old wooden clubs. They are harder to hit but lovely when you hit them correctly. If and when I get to single figures I am going to try and get my hands on blades. Also looking for that thing of the past, a 1 iron.I love technology and gadgets, but when it comes to golf I am a traditionalist!

I had the pleasure of Alex Hay's company a number of years back. I'll let you youngsters Google who he was. We got to discussing modern technology and the differences it has made down the years.

I can't quote him exactly so please excuse my paraphrasing.

The biggest difference in golf in the last 40 years was going from the 1.62 ball to the American 1.68 size golf ball. If you could play the 1.62, playing the bigger ball made the game so much easier.

But what about the new drivers and cavity irons?

As with everything, technology will make virtually no difference if you can't swing the club properly.

For me that nails the argument. Take whatever you want out on the course but if you haven't got the skill you aren't going to post the numbers.