can anyone give me the correct ruling regarding dropping within 2 club lengths when taking relief under penalty.

Does the 2 club lengths have to be with the club the shot is to be played with?

NO, everyone normally uses the driver.

thanks John

Clearly I have been misinformed previously by a so-called club member.  (Its amazing how  low some parents will stoop so their kids can win.  Unfortunately for that member i am sure our paths will cross again.)

Does this also relate to the Teeing Ground.

It does pays to get a 2nd opinion.

I now owe one of  my playing partners from yesterday an apology, and i need to inform the other partner we were both incorrect in our judgement.

Unfortunately i think my comment distracted him and he took 4 shots to get onto the green 10 yds in front.  2 duffs put him in bunker, 2 attempts to get out of bunker.  Thankfully It didn't damage his chances of winning.

Colin you should always endeavour to get hold of a copy of the rules (next one due next year) they are normally in the pro shop and are given free.

The book is much easier to read now (especially for simple rules) much more difficult rulings take a bit longer to source but I always say whatever your handicap CARRY THE RULE BOOK........it's a great way of learning as it invariably always provoke a "what if" situation and by looking it up, it tends to stay in the mind

i have one and i had it in my bag but my playing partner did not question it (shame), Since i have not been able to find a reference to club selection and club length relating to this i wonder where this info is. 

I would have thought anyone who ever watched a golf tournament on TV would have known the answer to this question. Its common to see the pros using their drivers to measure 2 clublengths regardless of the club they intend yo use next.

Incidentally if you use a broomhandle putter this can be used as well.

Sadly you cant use that 20 foot extendable ball retreiver that you may have in your bag,

regards,

Michael.

Colin,

I think the other person (parent) was linking two Rules. When you find a Nearest point of Relief for a Drop, you use the Club you intend to use in order to find that NPR. Once you find it you can then use any Club to measure from there.

If you want a good link to help with the Rules, find The USGA Website and go to the Rules & Decisions Section. Put in on favorites because you will be hooked on it.

TheLyth

thanks David

Got it, brilliant.  

I understand it better now, not totally but better.

No wonder it confuses some golfers. 

basically you use your longest club most times unless you need to drop your ball in a small area and don't want it to roll to far into a less than ideal position.  

So be selctive which club to use as same club has to be used to measure distance ball travels after being dropped.

I agree with everything stated. Indeed there have been two USGA decisions confirming that long putters may be used for this procedure.

Does my memory serve me ill but I recall that two things were different in the 1960s:

Under the two club lengths rule the club used had to be one which one was genuinely considering to play the shot with. Although one did not necessary have to finally decide to use that particular club. That was the widely held belief in the club were I played, but we may have all have been wrong.

It is so so long ago now, but I seem to recall that when dropping a ball we had to drop it over one of our shoulders, which is never done nowadays.

Anyone else remember either of the above or did I dream it?

***************************

P.S. Now found a copy of the old rules:

http://www.ruleshistory.com/rules1960.html

Yes indeed we did used to drop the ball over one shoulder. (Rule 22). My understanding of the measuring club to be then used may have been wrong, unless such appears in Decisions of that period.

What i found in the decisions section was that

24-2b/4  Club Used to Determine Nearest Point of Relief Not Used for Next Stroke

Q. The Note to the Definition of "Nearest Point of Relief" states: "In order to determine the nearest point of relief accurately, the player should use the club with which he would have made his next stroke if the condition were not there to simulate the address, direction of play and swing for such stroke." If the subsequent lie of the ball were such that it was expedient for the player to play his next stroke with some other club, may the player use the other club?

A. Yes.

20-2c/0.8  Player Takes Relief from an Area of Ground Under Repair; Whether Re-Drop Required If Condition
Interferes for Stroke with Club Not Used to Determine "Nearest Point of Relief"

Q. A player finds his ball in heavy rough approximately 230 yards from the green. He selects a wedge to play his next shot and finds that his stance touches a line defining an area of ground under repair. He determines the nearest point of relief and drops the ball within one club-length of this point. The ball rolls into a good lie from where he believes he can play a 3-wood for his next stroke. If the player used a wedge for his next stroke he would not have interference from the ground under repair, but adopting a normal stance with the 3-wood, he again touches the ground under repair with his foot. Must the player re-drop his ball under Rule 20-2c?

A. No. The player proceeded in accordance with Rule 25-1b by determining his nearest point of relief using the club with which
he expected to play his next stroke and he would only be required to re-drop the ball under Rule 20-2c if interference still existed for a stroke with this club — see analogous Decision 20-2c/0.7.

As it was expedient for the player to play his next stroke with another club, which resulted in interference from the condition, he would have the option of playing the ball as it lies or proceeding again under Rule 25-1b.

Thanks Colin.

So where does that leave us?

Was such an old decision which has now been reversed to leave us effectively in the present situation as discussed in this thread?

So, my understanding of the rules of the olden days was indeed correct, but that it has now been changed?

Taking a DROP under penalty stroke allows you to drop within 2 club lengths and you can select any club in your bag, but you have to use the same club to measure the distance the ball rolls from where it touches the ground and it cannot exceed an additional 2 club lengths.

Taking a  FREE DROP at the NEAREST POINT OF RELIEF allows you to drop within 1 club length but the club that you were going to play your initial shot with has to be used as the measure.  And the ball can only roll 1 club length of selected measuring club from where it touches the ground only.  But you do not have to select same club after relief has been sought.

Thanks Colin.

I can see why the tour guys carry a rules advisor who jumps out of that large pocket in the golf bag when required!   

i am not so disappointed i got it wrong on saturday, i was nearly right.

Thing was, the ball was situated under the bottom branches of a conifer and the bottom branches were less than 12 inches off the ground, and the ball was about 12 inches underneath the branch.  The ball was directly adjacent to an animal scratching that was a good 2 inches deep and maybe 6-8 inches round, and there was some dog dirt or fox dirt in this scratching and the was right on the edge no more than 2 inches away from the dirt.  The ball was at the far side of the scratching also so any attempt to play a back handed shot from under the branch or he could have puched his body into the tree to allow him to make some sort of stroke at the ball would more than likely have resulted in striking the dirt.  

Question, would he have been entitled to free relief from this scratching or dirt as he could have played some kind of stroke.  In equity would it have been fair for him to be forced to play a shot where excrement could be splattered onto himself.

You just can't make these questionsof the rules up.

The question to ask is when do we take a Drop where both ends of the measurement need to be exact. Most Drops are "within 1 or 2Clublengths of..." a point. That Point being 'Nearest Point of Relief', 'Where ball last crossed a Margin' or 'An Obstruction'.

Then we have the Rules where a ball must be dropped within a set length of where it lies. That measurement can be taken with any Club.

In the 60's the Unplayable Lie relief was very different to todays. Firstly, unless you returned to the original place you played from with a Penalty Stroke, it was a TWO SHOT penalty. You could then drop back 'On Line' or as near as possible to where the  ball was lifted, not nearer the hole.

The Rules will have a New Edition from 1st Jan 2012 and The Decisions are published every year on 1st Jan.

TheLyth 

Another point with regard to Free Relief.

You don't get Free Relief from "an abnormal ground condition", if you are also hindered by something else that doesn't warrent Free Relief. (i.e. Casual Water under a Bush).

There are a number of issues that are not covered within either The Rules or The Decisions and open to lengthy discussions. I am also a member of a Forum that has a number of Tour Officials and Referees on it and you wouldn't believe what is discussed on there.

TheLyth

As for getting free relief for "an abnormal ground condition"  Out from under a bush depends on the golfers determination to get into the ball to play it some how.  I've been there and done it.  Basically a recognisable shot has to be playable, and relief sought for that shot. if you can see the ball and your swing/stance are not unduly abnormal for the shot you intend to play then you have a good call for relief.

Laws, rules, and regulations are invariably made unnecessarily complex in all of life's arenas.

I respectfully suggest that in golf all that should reasonably required is to stipulate that a golfer has, in every case, two choices:

1.  If in bounds, choose to play the ball from where it is located. Or,

2.  Choose to play a second ball and incur stroke and distance.

If you fall on 'Ground under Repair' etc. tough luck - stroke and distance.

Any  game where arguably 99% of players do not understand the rules is beyond ridiculous.

Ivan,

To Play this game within the Rules is easy.

To correctly administer The Rules is a different matter.

TheLyth

why have any out of bounds, just play 2.  Choose to play a second ball and incur stroke and distance.  simple

lets not forget, Laws are for breaking, Rules are to be obeyed.

David,

That sounds profound but let's get down to earth, or rather water:

It's well within the rules to blob one's ball into a course pond. We all do it, we all play within the rules.

But once there we are stuck. What to do?

We have played within the rules, but the rules nevertheless raise their delightful head.

Instead of plain and simple stroke and distance one enters into a debate as to  where the ball crossed the water and (in a major tournament) out comes a rules official, a team of sniffer dogs and a low flying 'plane.  Has there been a muder? Hell no - worse - a golfer has blobbed a ball into the pond!   Major incident!

Any sign of trouble then play a second ball for safety and let's keep the game moving otherwise a round of golf will ultimately take a day and a half.  

This obsession with ever changing rules denotes idiocy and incompetance of the highest order. Any government, or sport organisation, that cannot once and for all fix laws / rules after over a hundred years of trying is at the very least lacking in clear thought processes. 

Nothing has changed over the last 100 years. The water has always been there. Bushes have always had to be dealt with. Golfers have kept hitting their balls into such things. How difficult can it be to simply rule what to do, without having to periodically revise? It's hardly rocket science. 

The one rule I detesed is when you hit a perfect tee shot only to find ypur ball has manged to find a divot to rest in, or sat in the middle of a curled up replaced divot. I think this should be allowed,a drop without penalty. Thoughts?

It's human nature to seek an advantage and thats why the rules constantly change, some little smart alec has found a way round what was previously a problem and thereby created a loophole.

Man only has himself to blame.

For the game to progress the rules also have to progress.

There is nothing stopping anyone from setting up their own golf course and calling it say 'NAKED GOLF' where by there are no rules other than teeing off and putting it in the hole.  play the ball as it lies everytime or take a stroke and distance penalty.  No OB other than outside the land boundary.

Any takers.  all you ball crushers would love it.

Colin,

I'm in, but how did you know that we 'Ball Crushers' are all secret nudists (sorry 'naturists'  )? Who have you been speaking with?   

When I play golf I want to play as a golfer, not as a lawyer struggling with over-complex rules.

I agree Colin that there are occasions when rules need revising (eg. the 'false start rule' in athletics / the snooker 'miss rule' etc.)  but such situations are rare and do not require a new rule book every couple of years. 

No, it's more the case of a latest committee of smart a*ses believing that all of their pre-decessors must have got it wrong and it's time to apply their 'genius.' 

I find it somewhat amusing that I as a lawyer am arguing that most lawyers, politicians, rule makers and the like are over-complex nits and they and most of their constantly changing rules need burning, but am likely in the minority.

Interesting.     

Chapter upon chapter of rules are possibly appropriate for criminals, but not gentleman golfers. We are gentlemen are we not?

this is not directed at you Ivan so please don't take offense,

solicitors, barristers and probably the judiciary live off ambiguityand its because of these muppets that the laws are there to protect the criminal and very rarely there to protect the common innocent man.  The laws were made by the rich for the rich to protect the rich and to maintain the rich.  

As for the Rules, they need to be kept upto date and any ambiguity corrected.

progress, don't stand in the way of it, embrace it, welcome it.

And only when you know it was a mistake tell em so.

A friend once told me you could fill a bag up with all the solicitors and barristers and judges and politicians and  you could stand there whacking it with a bloody great big stickfor the rest of your life, and you know what.............

You wouldn't hit a good'un.

lol

Dave Ley I agree with the Divot statement, nothing worse then driving the ball down the middle of the fairway to find your ball in or wedged under a bit of inproperly repaired turf. You should be able to lift and place within 6 inches no nearer the hole in this situation I feel.

As for the rest of this thread, clearly people misinterpret rules and get them confused so easily. Sounds like the original guy quoting the rule was mixing both Nearest Point of Relief Free Drops and Penalty Stroke Drops. I've seen this happen so many times. The one that always come up time and time again for me is people claiming relief or wanting relief from Animal Scrapes or Rabbit Scrapes. Half the time when I check its not an animal scrape, there is no sign of animal activity (droppings etc) looks more like rough ground under a tree or the divots made by the last hacker chipping out from under there. Yet they still claim relief. I give in and say okay and then watch as they proceed to do one of two things:

1. Pick the ball up and walk out from behind the tree and drop the ball so they have a clear line of sight to the target.

2. They get driver out and start measuring two club lengths again to get them back toward the fairway and a clear line of sight to target.

No one understands the rule that you only get relief from the scrape not the tree. You identify nearest point of relief usually only a few inches from where the ball rests and then measure one clubs length. The tree and the scrape should remain between you and the target on a line of sight.

Funnier still are the people who try to invent rules. Playing the other day ball came to rest against a staked tree. Was about to start taking relief when playing partner pipes up, "You don't get a drop as you can play sideways or backwards. Only get a drop if its totally unplayable." I looked at him amazed before getting the scorecard out and checking the local rules "No sorry mate, rules say I must take relief from staked, caged and young trees". So proceeded to find my nearest point of relief. Noticed this was going to take me into more trouble if I then made a measure with driver and dropped the ball. So got my 33 inch putter out and measured my one club length. Placed the putter's grip at the NP Marker and then when I dropped the ball made sure to drop it as close to that as possible, so I wouldn't be blocked out by surrounding trees. Played my shot and this guy pipes up again, "That'll be a penalty now for not taking full relief." I just ignored him.

Playing the other day ball came to rest against a staked tree. Was about to start taking relief when playing partner pipes up, "You don't get a drop as you can play sideways or backwards. Only get a drop if its totally unplayable." I looked at him amazed before getting the scorecard out and checking the local rules "No sorry mate, rules say I must take relief from staked, caged and young trees". So proceeded to find my nearest point of relief. Noticed this was going to take me into more trouble if I then made a measure with driver and dropped the ball. So got my 33 inch putter out and measured my one club length. Placed the putter's grip at the NP Marker and then when I dropped the ball made sure to drop it as close to that as possible, so I wouldn't be blocked out by surrounding trees.

from how i read the rules earlier i would have judged that the free relief had to be 1 club length with the club that was going to be used to play the initial shot.  Surely neither Driver or putter  were the correct choices.

I thought that the ruling was UP TO 2 club lengths.  I've always taken the full two to give as much relief as possible mind.

Shows how the R & A are moving with the times.  Here's the rules as an iphone app.  Free to download -> http://www.randa.org/en/RandA/News/Features/2010/July/Rules%20App.aspx

Chris,

I think getting your phone out on the course would get you into more trouble

you only get relief from the scrape not the tree. You identify nearest point of relief usually only a few inches from where the ball rests and then measure one clubs length. The tree and the scrape should remain between you and the target on a line of sight.

sorry Chris, from what i read earlier, if taking the relief  gives you any benefit such as having a clear sight to the green or not having to hit over a bunker or water etc then that is permitted and viewed upon as getting the rub of the green, just plain lucky in other words.

Colin ,not to hit over any water would be a huge bonus for Chris.

from how i read the rules earlier i would have judged that the free relief had to be 1 club length with the club that was going to be used to play the initial shot.  Surely neither Driver or putter  were the correct choices.

 Colin relief from a staked tree is done by identifying your nearest point of relief then dropping within one clubs length of that point. So in my case I used a 7 iron to determine my nearest point of relief, as thats the club I intended to play the shot with. My nearest point of relief is where I could make a swing without intereference from the tree. I marked this spot. Now I have to measure and drop within 1 clubs length. This point you can use any club in the bag to measure the 1 Clubs length. Now in my situation had I done what most people do and thats grab driver and go ahead and measure and drop, I'd have been blocked out by another tree. So in this situation I choose to measure my one clubs length with the shortest club in the bag, so when I dropped the ball I'd hopefully have a line to the green.

What my playing partner was probably thinking would have been correct if I'd just used my 7 Iron to find my nearest point of relief and then dropped there, without taking the further 1 clubs length into account. He'd have been right then to penalise me for not taking full relief from the obstruction. Famously happened to Payne Stewart in a competition once, where he incurred a 2 shot penalty because he didn't take full relief from a path.

Again Colin on the line of sight issue, depending on how the ball drops, bounces, and rolls can be deemed rub of green or plain luck. If you're deliberately dropping the ball in a position that removes the obstruction, hazard etc from your line, you are cheating as you're playing the ball from the wrong position.

Colin,

There is indeed a growing feeling in many quarters that criminal law favours the criminals rather than the victims.  

My limited experience of becoming involved in civil proceedings in the County Court is that there is a clear 'left wing' bias by the judiciary in favour of the poorer heeled litigant. The exact opposite to your view. The law was made for everyone, not simply the rich.

Rules can indeed correct ambiguities, but it is the rules which create them in the first place. They would not require so much 'updating' if they were initially tightly drafted! 

You may regard progress as endless rule making and amending such. Progress in my book is learning to do a job properly in the first place. Just like building a vehicle.

I now withdraw from further comment on this thread as these issues are not really pertinent to the core of the matter.

Chris, i only learnt this Rule yesterday and the points i picked up on i am still understanding it, but my understanding is.

You find your nearest point of relief that allows you to use the club you claimed with) and mark it, it is this club that you have to use to measure your 1 club length, and it is also this club that you also measure the distance the ball travels after touching the ground, and that distance can also not exceed 1 club length.  There is no reference in having to drop the ball behind in line with the hole, that is when you take a penalty drop.  You have to imaging you are actually dropping your ball within a half circle.

When you have to or choose to take relief you have to ensure your dropped ball clearly allows you to play your next shot without striking the obstruction that you got relief from.  There is an exception to this, and that is if you opt to take a free drop say from a cart path which you have the option to play from or obtain relief, once your ball is in a position to take full relief with the club you initially sought the relief with, you can then change clubs and and say go from a 7 iron to a longer 4 iron, you can then make contact with the area of cart path that you sought relief from with your 4 iron without fear of a penalty because you had taken full relief.

This is starting to make sense to me now the more scenarios' i analyse.