Forum > Any other business?

Ian Cook

With the passing of the equalities bill in Parliment there are likely to be some huge changes in golf clubs across the UK.

In order that we don't become the first test case...we are exploring what we will need to do to comply.

the main issue we believe will be " Despite the uncertainty we need to start considering the legislation and its implications to HGGC and our membership struction for next year  Once the legislation is implemented the implications are we will not be able to have separate mens and Ladies sections/membership."

 The legislation is being supported by the English Golf Union (www.englishgolfunion.org) and the English Womens Golf Association (www.englishwomensgolf.org).

 
The latest position is stated below
 
On 8th April the Equality Bill received Royal Assent and became the Equality Act 2010. It is not yet in force. The Act brings disability, sex, race and other grounds of discrimination within one piece of legislation, and also makes changes to the law. The Act does not apply to Northern Ireland.
Most of the Equality Act 2010 will come into force in October 2010, as intended by the previous Labour government. After some uncertainty about the position of the Coalition government, the Government Equalities Office issued a press release (link to equalities.gov.uk) on 3rd July to clarify the position.
Some parts of the Equality Act will come into effect later than October, and some may not come into effect at all.
 
see www.equalities.gov.uk for further information
  
Some clubs have already started to revise their structures to take into account the legislation.  Any research/background anyone can do to look at some of the initiatives undertaken would be worthwhile for all and provide good input.

This will affect every golf club that has different sections and more importantly membership costs which we interpret will not be acceptable to have lower charges for ladies and senior members....its simply a 5,6 or 7 day membership and all Saturday mens club competitions will have to be open to all lady members, playing off the tee of the day.... that's the implication of the new laws.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this or has your club started to take action to change things.

Christopher Watmore

I agree that there shouldn't be any difference in pricing between Gents, Ladies, Seniors etc Memberships, everyone should pay the same fees to play.

I don't agree with Ladies being able to play in Men's competitions or vice versa. The only way that could work would be a complete shake up of the Handicap system, so Ladies have the same maximum handicap as the Men and play off the same tees, i.e. There are no Ladies Tees, Gents Tees or Medal Tees. One set for all. This just wouldn't work as many ladies wouldn't be able to compete on equal terms.

How does this rule effect competions that have an age requirment i.e. Seniors Competitions. Always thought this should have been reviewed when the agism laws came in a few years back. The Seniors section of my Club has 48 qualifers in addition to the 32 club ones. I can't participate in many of the club competitions but could make the Seniors ones, sadly as I'm 27 years too young I'm not allowed to play.

John Pettitt

You and I both know CHris, that the whole system is a total mess. This will not make it any better either.

It is about time that it is recognised that the game of golf is for all players, male or female strong and weak young and old. but the system only caters for standards that are only applicable to Professional and very good amateurs. The rest of us have to try and compete against the most ridiculous odds and a handicap system that certainly handicaps me.

I was asked to fill in on Sunday for a match against another Crown course - Oak Park. I partnered Darren A and he had to give 5 shots to me 6 to a 19 handicapper and 1 to a 12 handicapper.

They started with gross birdies on the first and second and a nett birdie on the third, so quickly we were three down. I did not help much but Darren was out in 2 over par gross and we were 5 down they had a 5 nett 4 on a par five I cannot reach in three shots so another hole gone and then they made a birdie on the 12th and 13th so game over way out in the country.

The 19 handicapper was level after six holes with one birdie and one bogey he also was the one who birdied 12 and 13, so one can see that the odds were stacked against us.

Wayne Santorini

Chris Perry

I don't think it will affect the ladies/gents comps.  Remember what happened when Michelle Wie tried to play in the mens events?  No-one even tried to stop her, but she soo realised what she was trying to do was not in her own interests.  It is recognised in sport that the sexes are kept seperate for tournaments where strength, power or speed give an advantage. 

This legislation is aimed at removing outdated rules that in place in some establishments, and unfortunately golf is one of the main offenders.  I've seen all of the following that would be rightly outlawed under these new rules: -

• No ladies in the clubhouse before 2:00pm
• No ladies in the members section [of the clubhouse]
• No women permitted in the clubhouse
• No women on the course before 1:00pm
• No women members

The last course genuinely enforce this rule.  Women had to join a different club who were allowed to play on the course mid-week after 1:00pm only. 

As regards handicaps, perhaps this is an opportunity for a decent shake up of the system into something that works

Dave ley

Ian Cook

Chris

Think you are right about the comps, from doing some research i found this Q&A

Q. Does the introduction of this Bill mean that ALL competitions must be played off of the same tees and that men and women must compete against each other under the same conditions?

A. Sports clubs will NOT be forced to allow women to compete alongside men. There is already an exception in law which allows men and women to be treated differently in “any sport, game or other activity of a competitive nature where the physical strength, stamina or physique of the average woman puts her at a disadvantage to the average man” (Sex Discrimination Act 1975). The Government has no plans to remove this provision.

I think that it will have far more impact on the membership fee structure, access to the course and clubhouse than the handicapping system.

Someone at a club where the ladies already have equality with male members explained how their Saturday comp system works. Anyone can play at anytime, however the club organises a male and female comp every Saturday, format is always the same for everyone and at the end the lady puts her card in the ladies comp box and the men in theirs...it all seems to run smoothly and the theory that ladies take longer to play than men is an old wives tale as you should play at our club behind some of the seniors....and even the low handicappers who take their time over every single shot and putt which can cause havoc on a course.  

Loud Mouth b.a.

Equality is an elusive concept which even democracy has a habit of corrupting.

It is an issue which I have been all too involved with since as long ago as 1972 when I assisted the Chief Organisation & Methods' Analyst at Vauxhall Motors Ltd. implement the Equal Pay Act 1970.

And, over subsequent years as an employer and solicitor, deal with (very often trumped up) issues of 'racial discrimination.'

Equality is an obsessive principle pursued by generations of UK politicians of all persuasions which invariably, in my opinion, does far more harm than good.

Such legislation arms relative protected factions which rights which are generally perversely exploited to the extent that instead of 'equality,' the protected group gains 'superiority.'

A small price to pay? Possibly if the legislation ever came close to working. Usually one can drive a horse and cart through such, and all that is left behind is resentment against the protected group.   

Be that as it may, the latest round of tosh has to be addressed and the question asked as to how best to achieve the legislative directives.

Dave makes a very good point (which economists refer to as 'elasticity of demand'  ) on which  I saw a similar situation on the driving range last night:

As the 'happy hour' scheme (two buckets of balls for the price of one) had just ended, the usually full 60 bays of hitters (plus three or four waiting) shortly after 5 pm, had been reduced to six players! 

Dave, we have lady GS members? Really. How many? Has anyone recently seen a  post by a member of the fair sex?  

Whilst I have decades of society / clubs' constitutions and daft legislation experience alas I have no formula for true 'equality success' because, in the real world, it is unachievable. One simply has to come up with an honest  compliant plan and then let matters take their sometimes subsequent troubled course, until such time as the politicians come up with amendments or something even dafter.

Unfortunately they invariably fail to carry out any or sufficient consultation with those in the know before implementation of legislation.

To answer any suspicion that I am anti-women or anti ethnic minorities let me say that I am happily married to an ethnic minority female.      

Chris Perry

My view is that everyone should be treated equally, regardless of race, colour, religion or sex.  Unfortunately political correctness has tried to force this issue with the result that unless you are either disadvantaged or from a minority group you are not important.  It's been a massive over-compensation and has been exploited by the unethical.  And yes I have seen this first hand on many occaisions. 

For my mind, it is very simple.  Everyone is equal.  The only exception there should be to this ruling is where this disadvantages a specific group, as per Ian's note above about in competitions where men would have a physical advantage over women, ad then you have a women's only competition. 

The thing that winds me up is when you fill in an official document and at the the end there is a questionaire.  This usually starts with something along the lines of "To ensure we treat everyone equally, please tell us what sex, race, colour, religion, etc your are".  My response to these is "If you didn't ask anyone any of these questions and just processed the paperwork the same everytime, then you would treat everyone equally" 

Loud Mouth b.a.

Chris,

One never treats everyone equally it's a metaphysical illusion. The best that one can strive for is to treat people fairly.

1.  Would you flirt with a bearded grandfather?

2.  If you saw two young ladies standing on the bus and you decided to offer one your seat. Would you flip a coin, or choose the lady tired from her gym workout, or alternatively the tired heavily pregnant female?

3.  If a priest and a hippy ran towards you chased by a policeman shouting "Stop that man!" Which one might you choose to rugby tackle?

We all discriminate:

"Shall I put salt or pepper on my soup?"

Sometimes we discriminate irrationally, or based on pre-conditioning, and arguably such then becomes unsound i.e. 'prejudice.'

We live in a country were 'discrimination' is often wrongly labelled as being 'prejudice,' and for those not lying comotose in hospital - a place where treating people equally never in reality occurs. To treat people equally would amount to utter nonsense.

Based on such nonsense laws are created.

If a golf course has 1900 male members and 100 female members, and at the AGM a proposal is made to either build a creche or a snooker room and it is put to the vote. Is the issue decided by giving equal voting weight to the male and female camps? Certainly not. It is instead dealt with democratically.

The system of democracy is not based on equality but on the successful result of a power struggle. The winners (often a minority) then market 'equality for all.' Utter nonsense!      

Chris Perry

Ivan, I draw your attention to my very first sentence; "everyone should be treated equally".  I completely agree that in the real world this would never happen and the word fairly is much more apt.  In response to you questions: -

1. He'd have to buy me a drink first normally and the wife would have to be not looking
2. In an equal world, I have as much right to the seat as them so stuff em
3. I wouldn't for fear of being sued if I injured them

As regards soup, I don't take salt on anything and only take pepper on mashed carrot and swede

David Marshall

Apart from all the valid points, already raised...

I would assume that it will therefore be OK for people to wear Jeans, trainers, Track suits, football kit, etc when playing?

Chris Perry

Would you be allowed to wear jeans and trainers into a nightclub?  No.  Every estasblishment has the right to refuse entry and can set down entrance criteria.  Setting a dress code is no different to setting a handicap limit

Would you be allowed to play Sunday league football in hard hat, steel toecap boots and a hi-vis jacket?  No.  It's not the appropriate and acceptted attire for the sport

David Marshall

John Flood

Dave,

I think with dress everyone can choose / has a choice what to wear so can decide if they want to wear jeans at a muni or smart trousers at the private club whereas people can't choose their sex, race or religion (maybe on that one?)

Sanders,

in response to your questions to Chris,

1.  Would you flirt with a bearded grandfather? the beared grandfather has got taste

2.  If you saw two young ladies standing on the bus and you decided to offer one your seat. Would you flip a coin, or choose the lady tired from her gym workout, or alternatively the tired heavily pregnant female? have you seen perrys gut, they'd offer him the seat

3.  If a priest and a hippy ran towards you chased by a policeman shouting "Stop that man!" Which one might you choose to rugby tackle? He can't play golf what hope has he got of playing rugby properly?

all tongue in cheek

Wayne Santorini

Loud Mouth b.a.

You guys put me in stitches laughing.  

The following is a true story:

My friend and Justice of the Peace Adrian went away on holiday. On his return I assured him that I had watered his plants, checked in on his aged mother-in-law, and jokingly stated that I had been invited to sit on the bench in his place.

He genuinely misheard me and gasped in disbelief:

"What! You sh*t on my bench!!"

Chris Perry

"He can't play golf what hope has he got of playing rugby properly?"

Excuse me Mr Flood, I think you will find that I have played County standard rugby union and have represented the Royal Air Force too.  Not bad when I was brought up playing the real man's code

Wayne Santorini

Loud Mouth b.a.

A real man can tackle any heavy sport!

http://media.photobucket.com/image/real%20man/Sing_Melokia/A_Real_Man.jpg?
o=12

Wayne Santorini

Colin Coote

help me to understand this, is it true that

'all Saturday mens club competitions will have to be open to all lady members, playing off the tee of the day'.

if that is a fact, then all future ladies comps will also have to be 'OPEN'. 

If that occurs, where are the women going to play their golf because this means there can no longer be segregated competitions in any sport.  No i can't believe the New Law will force these scenario's to occur.

What may need to occur is that clubs have an open comp. established for all members.

Loud Mouth b.a.

Colin,

I cannot definitively comment without having first read the legislation, which I have not.

Two (or more) different scenarios are possible depending on how the law has been drafted:

SCENARIO 1:

Previously male only competitions will also become open to females. But, the female only comps. will remain female only.

SCENARIO 2:

Previously both male and female competitions will now be unisex.

If scenario 1 is the case then equality is not promoted, rather preferential status for women granted - as we would not be able to likewise enter their comps.

Scenario 1 was implemented vis a vis race laws eg. it is illegal to have a whites only night club, but not illegal to have a blacks only night club.

Beginning to see the 'equality' madness?

John Pettitt

Loud Mouth b.a.

Hello John,

We need to get together soon and play grumpy old men. I'm not sure who would win, but we would have fun pretending to be grumpy.     

Yes John I mean exactly that, and also over 2,000 other groups to which whites are excluded.

I don't think we ought to go into detail here because as soon as one speaks of genuine equality then rather strangely one is labelled a 'racist' or worse. What could be further from the truth! Sixty per cent of my last staff were coloured.  And, after all this is a golf forum. Not a political debate arena.

Partly (and I stress only partly) because of inequalities in opportunities in the UK jobs market, caused by 'equality' legislation, I am currently finding it difficult to secure employment. 

I may post here for 'work wanted.' If it is inappropriate then I will not take offence at my ad. being removed.

Dave ley

Matt Simmons

John Flood

Matt,

that's only in the mating season!

Dave ley

It's not a rumour Matt and to get back on topic I don't discriminate between sheep, sex or the colour of there fleece,

Just remember lads I sh##'em you then eat them!!

David Long

I played in Spain last week at a great new course called Font del Llop. The pricing is €80 for two including a buggy. If you play on your own, then it's €45 and a buggy is €20. But what stood out was that they had a different price for women of €30 including a buggy. 

So, I asked if I could play off the ladies tees if I paid less, they said no. They were extremely sheepish when i suggested that they were guilty of sex discrimination. They also admitted that every day, male golfers have told them that the pricing model they have employed is discriminatory. 

I also remember playing at Sunningdale in the '90s. In the members locker room they had a sign:

'Members are kindly reminded that dogs and ladies are not permitted on the course before 4pm'

I always thought the order of that list was most telling! 

Phil Jones

To answer a couple of points above (the real subject of the thread)....

Competitions CAN be separate per sex - ie Mens and Separate Ladies - this does NOT contravene the equality act.

The crux of the bill is that you cannot have different categories or sections of membership - ie a Ladies Section and a Mens sections and a Senior section, as they are discriminatory on Sex and Age.

 Any (sensible) comment from people 'in the know' regarding this bill would be greatfully received.

Phil

Gary Hand

Does anyone know if this is going to apply to Junior and intermediate meberships?

I for one agree with discount deals for younger members they are the life line of the sport but on the other hand I don't agree with the time restrictions imposed on them.

I played with a 14 year old in a comp at our place the other week and he made me and my friend a 16 handicapper look like real amatuers, luckily he can play when he wants at our club but he wouldn't be able to at a lot of other local clubs.

David Lythgoe

I believe that it is Club Membership that is the issue. Everyone will be a 'Member' of the Club. Then you can be part of a Section within that club.

TheLyth

Caron Holmes

My 15 year old son has been a member of a club for a number of years and playing in the mens competitions for the last year. Last week the committe passed a motion that under 16 juniors can nolonger play in mens competitions. Is this legal with the passing of the new bill?

Phil Jones

Caron

 The Bill does not apply to anyone under 18, so yes it is legal.

 Or rather - it isnt illegal, but sounds a little unfair.

Phil

Caron Holmes

Phil,

Looking at the English Golf Union website, I understand that the law doesn't apply if juniors (under the age of 18) are discriminated against regarding age. However, if they are discriminated against on the basis of another protected characteristic the law still applies.

 As boys under 16 are being banned from mens compertitions, however girls are not being banned from ladies compertitions, could this be a case of sex discrimination?

 Cheers

Caron

Matt Simmons

yes that does sound a bit off Caron, but to be fair by the time all the stink and fuss and commotion has died down your son would probably have turned 22.

Its only a year (or less depending on when his birthday is)

Caron Holmes

Matt,

As well as a 15 year old son, I have younger son and a daughter who also play golf. We now have the situation where my daughter can play in the ladies competitions, but my older son can nolonger play in the men's competitions.  

This new ruling that under 16 juniors can nolonger play in men's competitions was approved with no warning and no discussion with the junior committee. If they can create a new rule in under a week, I would not expect it to take years to remove it.

Matt Simmons

Caron, maybr they have a smaller ladies and girls section so are trying to bring that part up?

Could just be a breakdown of communication and they may have a valid reason that you agree with.

Who knows. It took them a week? well if its a commitee it will be one month to decide to change it, the 7 months (one for each day) and then another month just for good luck.

You may have guessed I have zero faith in commitees and politicians alike

Phil Jones

Caron

You didnt mention the fact that Girls COULD play in your original post - and with that fact I think YES they probably are contravening the equality Bill, unless the under 18 rule means that they can do anything for under 18's.

 It is a minefield - we need a good test case or 2.

Phil 

Caron Holmes

Phil,

 Sorry I didn't mention about the under 16 girls in my first posting, I didn't discover that they could still play in ladies competition until I read the report from the ladies committee.

 Thanks

Caron

Christopher Watmore

As a Golf Club about to start setting up the renewal notices for next year with an aim to send them out next month, do I need to do some alterations?

1st - Junior Membership - Do I need to adjust this and state clearly it applies to people 17 years and under only?

 2nd - Adult Membership - Do I need to adjust this so that it states clearly it applies to people 18 years and older?

 3rd - Seniors' Membership - Do I need to remove this as it discriminates people under the age of 65 who don't receive a discounted Membership Fee? Also reading EGU Guidelines our Seniors' definitely have most dictation over and time on the course, so perhaps in a weird way they should pay more then any other section.

4th - Student and Distance Memberships - How should I proceed with these? Is it wrong to give a discount to people within Full Time Education making the transition from Junior the Full Adult Membership and is it wrong to offer a reduced membership to people living 50 miles or more from the course?

John Flood

Chris,

I think your 3rd point would need looking into deffo, it's bordering along ageism? 

Phil Jones

Christopher

If you read the BILL you will see that all elements relating to Age have been postponed until 2012 - so you dont need to do anything related to different age rates.

Its the Male/Female differences that need to be brought into line.

Phil 

Kelly Brooks

Hello everyone!!

I m new to this forum, have joined today only as i found it very interesting, interactive and informative...

The comments posted above are very true....

Well i would to like to define about Equality Act...

The Equality Act became law in October 2010. It replaces previous legislation (such as the Race Relations Act 1976 and the Disability Discrimination Act 1995) and ensures consistency in what you need to do to make your workplace a fair environment and to comply with the law.

The Equality Act covers the same groups that were protected by existing equality legislation - age, disability, gender reassignment, race, religion or belief, sex, sexual orientation, marriage and civil partnership and pregnancy and maternity - but extends some protections to groups not previously covered, and also strengthens particular aspects of equality law.....

Darren Ramowski

Looks like this post is starting to be spammed by solicitor sites.  If any are genuine let me know and I will refrain from deleting/editing.

Thomas Green

Unfortunately I was out of the country when this was discussed and agreed at our AGM in Jan.2011.

Strictly speaking, I have no access to the AGM minutes until approx. 1 month before the next one so I am unable to check what was or was not agreed. Our Match Secretary is now referring to this as a "Local agreement"

Ladies now pay full fees....they have no specific access rights on their competition day (thursdays)...on Gents competition days(mostly Saturdays) Ladies can play..but only if they are playing in a competition. Also two tee times (9am and 1pm) have been allotted for Ladies (only) who wish to play on Gents Competition Saturdays without playing in a competition.

I view this as extremely biased towards Gents...not to mention actually discriminating AGAINST Gents who also might wish to play outwith the competition on the Saturday times.

Given that our membership consists of 70 Ladies and 300 gents (9 hole course) I cannot believe that decisions made at AGM's are likely to be equitable as any vote is likely to favour Gents.

This would appear to allow clubs such as ours to simply pay lip service to the legislation.

I would appreciate any informed opinion. I am one of the Gents by the way. 

Darren Ramowski

This may help, the 'Golf Club Management Publication from the GCMA (Golf Club Managers Association)' have a few relevant articles:

http://www.golfclubmanagement.net/tag/equality-act/

Michael Shaw: An introduction to the Equality Act

Brian Butler: An overview of the Equality Act

Adrian Houstoun: How the Equality Act affects how you employ staff