Me and a bunch of working class heroes rocked up to a course in Gloucestershire on the weekend dressed to code if only a little on the wild side.

The owner of the club was “entertaining” when I asked for 6 rounds. Now there are two courses, an Old, (Harder) and new (Lame) course. This is what actually happened.

He (the owner) proceeded to look us up and down then came out with these immortal words. “You guys would be more suited to the new course” I asked him why that was to which he replied in a sarcastic tone, “I think you fellas will find the old course a little tough for your standard.

He had arrived at this conclusion by the clothes we were wearing.

I am a 12 handicapper, two of my homeys are sub 10 and the other three can bang out the low teens on a good day.

One of his friends had a cheeky chuckle at his comment. So I challenged him to a round for 100 notes off scratch right now. He turned his head and finished his, snowball or whatever those types drink.

We proceeded to leave the club and course with a few choice words to the owner.

I couldn’t help but feel we had lived up to his preconceived impression of us. But I felt better and what you give is what you get.

Is OUR game still considered by many to still be a game for the upper classes or were we just unfortunate to stumble upon this prehistoric ark of a course.

Having heard your version of the incident, Kaiser, it would be unfair to comment not having had the opportunity of hearing the others sides viewpoint.

You have to remember that you encountered one person only at this club and to draw the conclusion you have tells me that perhaps your attitude raised this gentlemans hackles.

My experience tells me that it is new money that has lowered the tone of this game.

I agree with JP on this, and turning up unannounced on a week-end at some Clubs is not well recieved.

Curious, how did you know he was the owner?

TheLyth

John dont take this the wrong way but how can you make a comment about new money has lowered the tone of the game.

If it was not for the younger generation taking up the sport you would not have a game or a club to be a part of.

Lets remember excisting club members dont live forever and clubs need an increasing income to survive this can only be gained by more people taking up the sport.

Hi Jp and co.

New money mine may be. But at 250 pound a week I wouldn't say there was lots of it.

Regarding the busy club, it was anything but and I honestly had a smile on my face and money in my hand when I approached him.

He informed me of his ownership as we left.

Thanks for your thoughts.

I'm glad you did the right thing and went to another course, some people don't deserve to succedd in business!

I've seen it all before....

When I go fishing I have seen the guy who's got all the new/latest gear.  They sit there for eight hours and catch three or four fish,  Me, with my old gear pulling eight or so in an hour and some of them decent.

Shooting is exactly the same, turn up and there's the guy with a new gun, telling everyone how much it cost him.  He's wearing all the correct gear but put a clay pigeon in front of him and it only breaks when it hits the floor!

You can never tell how good somebody is just by looking at them, or their equipment!

It does appear though as long as you've got all the right/new gear then it's ok for you to play.

Russ

You did the right thing to walk away.

To be honest some of these old boys on a course don't realise that the club would die without the youth and exuberance coming through. 

I think that the problem in Golf is the same as what happens in life. Some people think that an Establishment should cater for their want. Some people who have money think that they can do anything because of that and are shocked when someone stands up to them.

Private Golf Clubs are run for the benefit of the members who pay their subs and not for the people who roll up and demand to play, then having paid their GF's act as if they own the place.

TheLyth

Wasting your time attempting to explain it to them, Lyth. They just do not understand.

I was very nearly new money today.

Took a fiver off John Pettitt..You know, one of those white things he has stacks of.

Then, before I knew it, one of his cohorts from Sherfield knabbed it off me. Still not sure why

private golf clubs are run for the benefit of the members then why do they open the course to paying public David ?

 John tell you what keep your course to your self and fellow members see how long it lasts before you have nowhere to play.

This really gets me how people can be so negative to new players or people who want to play golf and they end up getting looked down on because they are not a member of the course that they are playing or they are of a certain age.

Come on guys if everyone wants to play golf and plays it the right way what does it mater if they are new to the game or of a certain age.

Jason,

A lot of Private Clubs DON'T open their course to the paying public. Some price themselves out of the market. Who would pay £210 at Turnberry (Ailsa), or £180 at Royal Birkdale and has anyone here played Loch Lomond or Muirfield as a roll up?

There are courses for everyone out there, some only welcome anyone who is willing to act in a manner in keeping with that Club.

TheLyth

Kaiser you haven't mentioned exactly what you were wearing for him to presume his opinion???

Interesting in what is deemed wild and suitable golf attire.

Wayne, I've held back from posting your Hollins Hall outfit last year

Firstly I reserve the right to be wrong with my below statement as I'm so new.......

I won't comment on this specifics of this post....but as a new golfer who may be looking to join a club in your local area, you will most likely visit the clubs before you hand over £800+.....Whilst obviously I would book a tee time as per the clubs procedures....I wouldn't announce myself as somebody looking to join a club, I would rather be a mystery shopper and get a true experience rather than something that may be a false one just to get me to join (if they have spaces of course....)

Now I believe that ANY person who only pays their green fees on any particular day.....so long as they are acting in a resonable manner.......should be afforded the same courtesy and service that a member is. We are all in that instance a possible new member for the club.

If the club does not need new members or need the green fees from non members then I'm sure they will not be open to non members. If you do need these things and are open to non members then good customer service should apply......AND I (as the course owner) would be very annoyed if existing members made the experience for possible new members a bad one. At the end of the day you are only harming the future of the club.

I'm sure one of the reasons that some clubs allow non-members to play is so that they won't have to go to members at the start of a season and say " You will need to pay £xxx extra this year to pay for the upgrades to the toilets/greens/bar" The non members are the cash cows that help to keep the membership fee down.

If the membership costs 2K - 3K+ a year then the club may not need non-members green fees, and if I was paying that much I would probably not want non-members hacking up my course.

I doubt Mr Edwards came across as though he was going to fit in at this particular club especially if he was dressed on THE WILD SIDE WITH HIS HOMIES.

Fair play to the owner for trying to protect his old asset.

Very sensible observations Lewis.

TheLyth

Yes Lewis, absolutely.

Kaiser, maybe it would have helped if you had calmly explained the playing handicaps of your group. You describe what you were wearing as 'a little on the wild side, this had obviously given the Owner the impression that you were all high handicappers .. first impressions count. Rather than rising to his comment by way of a wager, a bit of diplomacy could have seen you playing the course you wanted. Problem sorted!

When I say wild side, i had a pair of retro Tom Watson Checks on and a Gangsta Golf (Fun Lovin Criminals) Day glow green long sleeve shirt. Me and my mates all got into golf through a free scheme at our local driving range, weirdly situated at the top of our estate, Robinswood/Matson in Gloucester.We played and played most evenings , hence the handicaps.
In answer to my original question it would seem Garys comment (  I doubt Mr Edwards came across as though he was going to fit in at this particular club especially if he was dressed on THE WILD SIDE WITH HIS HOMIES.

Fair play to the owner for trying to protect his old asset
answers my question.
There obviously is a preconceived idea of what a golfer should look like.
I will make sure I pack my khakis ,pringle and flat cap next time.
There's a new scheme starting in Gloucester and they are encouraging underpriveledged kids from the estate to play again.
Should we check their family tree before letting them even on the range.
All that said there are some great clubs out there too with no heirs and graces.

Golf is like my ex ex girlfreind with a great rack. I know its wrong but I just cant stay away from her.

Kaiser,

Quite rightly you expect fair and equal treatment from the golf course in question but I fear you dont realise that you need to give them the fair and equal treatment they expect as well.

I've no doubt that you were upset over the comments regarding your attire but why couldnt you just calmly explain that you attire doesnt have a direct correllation to your handicap? What I'm about to say may seem harsh but we have an inherrent problem in this country of people being aggressive right off the bat and not respecting other peoples opinions and forming a reasoned argument when you dont agree with them. This man, whilst wrong, is perfectly entitled to form a first impression of you and its then up to you to explain why his first opinion is wrong, not just act like a "homie" and challenge his to a £100 bet.

I suspect his final blanking of you came from your outward attitude when he suggested the new course and not your attire.

Showing respect to others, even if they show little respect for you is not hard and costs nothing.  

Kaiser

I am all in favour of keep golf up with the times but you have to respect tradition as well.

If you are a non member you have to comply with there rules or vote with your feet. These clubs will not change for non-members unless visitor numbers get so low they struggle financially

Respect!

Just a thought?

What would this "Owner" have done if Alice Cooper had turned to for a game?

TheLyth

If Alice Cooper turned up he would be made to play from the ladies' tees because of his name, makeup etc etc.

If the owner had any sense, he would offer to caddie for Mr Cooper whilst playing the 'Old' course.

Firstly Alice is an accomplished golfer (handicap 7 I think) and secondly, who wouldn't want to boast of having a world renowned rock star frequenting their course?

 Kaiser, I think this is 'six of one and half a dozen of the other' Don't blame a bloke,  who doesn't know you from Adam, drawing preconceived ideas about the level of your golf if you turn up looking like the character from Caddyshack...how would you react if someone came onto your patch with a different attitude to you? and challenging a bloke you've just met to £100 game is just confrontational if not a little creepy.

Re: Alice Cooper - simple, he would have done what he used to do when he played with Bob Hope.  Just book the whole course for the day, no arguments then.

I fear tody's society are of the opinion that they are entitled to things rather than respect.

I would have happily laughed it off and said I was a closet Ian Poulter whom plays off 10 etc,etc.

I once had a secretary tell me i couldn't wear a turtle neck shirt (newly promoted by Mr Woods) on the course, yet without kicking off I explained the Professional was selling them as Golf Attire and surely you would stop him selling them before saying I was not duly attired. He relented and mumbled something about today's youth as he walked off, I was in my late 40's at the time

The difference is had he stood his ground I would have apologised and walked away never to go there again, today's youth would have mouthed off at him which is wrong.

lol mate,did you not get the answers you wanted on the other forums you have posted this on?get a life.

Golf is a great leveler and if you treat people with respect you will get a warm welcome at every Golf Club in the land.

On many occasions I have enjoyed the hospitality of members simply because I let it be known that I am priviliged to have played on their course. It is also a good idea to look into the history of a Club before playing there. You can then come up with things like "were you a member here when So&so was the Pro?"

TheLyth 

Hey Jaimie Courtman.

Why the hostllity.
Yes I got plenty of answers off the other forum, thanks. Have I offended you in some way?

Maybe by playing golf.
My appologies.

People just can't help getting personal and then they wonder why everyone thinks they are a waste of space

Your right Wayne. I have succumb to the pressure.

Will curb my enthusiasm in future and stick to the Golf.

Cheers.

Another case of gang up on the new guy, kaiser asked a question ralted to golf and extremely relavant to todays golfing forum and he was atacked by certain folk for having an opinion. What difference does it make if he put this on other forums does he not have the right to gauge opinion from a wider golfing comunity. The peolple on here are more than likely going to have similar opinions on golf probably why they frequent this forum and not others regularly due to the like minded people they have something in common with (the reason the GS events are so succesfull).

Mind you it's not just the small minded comments at the end that lower the tone of the thread I see Mr Petit had to have his usual snide, condesending and down right pompus dig from the off. He needs to get some people skills. There are plenty of peolpe who share John's opinion of exclusivity etc but also show respect for other peoples opinions and a tollerance for the younger generation of golfers who are the life blood of the game and if we scare them away we also scare off the beloved game.

It is clearly comments like Mr petite's that provoke a forum headed GOLF, UPPER CLASS?

Mind you it's not just the small minded comments at the end that lower the tone of the thread I see Mr Petit had to have his usual snide, condesending and down right pompus dig from the off. He needs to get some people skills. There are plenty of peolpe who share John's opinion of exclusivity etc but also show respect for other peoples opinions and a tollerance for the younger generation of golfers who are the life blood of the game and if we scare them away we also scare off the beloved game.

It is clearly comments like Mr petite's that provoke a forum headed GOLF, UPPER CLASS?

Mr Hand, if you are going to have a dig at me then perhaps it would have been better if you had  managed to spell all the long words you have used,  correctly.

There is no excuse for not spelling my name correctly as it is printed quite clear above my avatar.

I doubt that your level of spelling ability would be good enough to have an application form to a real golf club accepted.

As I said before it is a waste of time attempting to explain it all to some people, who just do not have a clue about the etiquette and tradition of this fine game. You may prefer it the way it is turning out to be at present, but I most certainly don't.

If exclusive golf courses are happy to let non members roll up and have a game, I think the visitors should show the courtesy that the course deserves.  Unfortunately most people do judge a book by its cover so if you turn up looking like a clown, you should not be surpised if you are treated as one.

There's nothing wrong with bright, funky golfing gear but there is a time and place to tone it down a bit (first impressions etc....)

Agreed, David.

Private golf clubs are much more than a place to play golf and because of this the club ensures that only suitable persons are allowed membership. I doubt very much if anything has changed  since my early days, specially with the cluibs that seek to have members  who are going to all get along.

They usually do this  by, initally asking prospective members to apply with the names of two current members who can vouch for them.  A meeting then takes place with the comminttee and a vote is taken as whether or not one is considered suitable to become a member. Being wealthy will make no difference, it is the personal demeanour that the committe will be looking at.

Those of you who consider this too stuffed shirt would obviously fail at an interview, as I doubt very much one could contain ones natutral attitude.

Of course this sytem does not always achieve the result expected, but it is a basis on which most private clubs use to determine the quality of the person applying.

I have no doubt that my occupation would be frowned upon by most private clubs these days, but I did have the advantage in being a County player at the time I joined my club in Somerset.

For some reason this video got deleted off of You Tube

You can watch it on this link 

Just click the Watch the Movie link

can I join Stoke Poges please

A couple of things that come to my mind this week-end.

1. Portmarnock GC have won a High Court case allowing them to not allow women as members, they can still play the course though.

2. The story from St Andrews from many years ago. A man applied for membership of The R&A and was black-balled (not admitted, turned down). He promptly built the large building that stands directly behind the 18th green. If you notice it is built in red brick and the rest of the town in grey Sandstone. It was his way of saying to the members "Remember me, you turned me down for membership"!

TheLyth

Just a thought.........

Some clubs have a couple of courses, one a championship and the other an average course. If when you turn up the person behind the counter thinks you are going to talke divots out of his fairways, he will request you play the standard course, rather than ruining the championship course. So regardless of how much money you have, unless you are famous, first opinions will count and they will put you on the cheaper of the two courses.

I know of people that have played Wentworth, started on the West Course, but observed for the first couple of holes, before being told to go back and play one of the other courses. They got a refund so the price was not an issue.

What was, was that they did not want the Championship course both ruined with divots and more importantly, play slowed up by them believing you will take more shots to get to the green. After all, its a championship course because its a hard course to play.

I'm not saying you would take divots or more shots, but if thats what they think, they will act accordinally.

Take the Belfry, anyone can play the Derby course, as its the less impressive out of the 3. But, you are mean't to show proof of your handicap to play the top two courses, although they do not always ask. Why is that? To protect the course and keep the pace of play up.

For some reason this video got deleted off of You Tube

You can watch it on this link 

Just click the Watch the Movie link

Allan,

The Belfry let anyone & everyone on either of the 3 courses. Most of the time they are on a corporate day & the standards & dress codes are on either end of the spectrum.

Why do the Belfry allow this, the answer is simple. It's a cash cow & not a real members course.

Just ask Chris Perry or Paul Williams about the sights & experiences they have had on there.

This cracks me up.

What sort of a name is Kaiser Edwards anyway? sounds like a dog?! 

If you still have the '100 notes' you mentioned in your first post, I'll play you for it at Huntley Golf course, you know the one?

Are you the kind of 'guy?' likely to get upset if I win?

Oh - just quickly - Is Mr Pettitt holding the World Snooker Championship Trophy in his picture? Looks AMAZING. 

G Hay 

If you were a golfer of some experience then you would know that the trophy I am holding is the "Ryder Cup". I assume you have heard of it.

Darn it..I thought it was the N v S trophy..

But then..It can't be..That's sitting nicely on my window sill gleaming in the sunshine.  And next year it will be in Wales...Surrounded by sheep

Couldn't get the N v S trophy so had to settle for the Ryder Cup for the photo - ah well 

Hello Graham.

Thanks for the dog reference, it is infact my name.

As regards the 100 notes you ask about, it is still available and yes I do know the Huntley course you reference. It's the beginers course right? in the Forest of Dean.

Fella anytime you fancy losing your money let me know and we can get it on. Name the day.  G Hay
 

I've not red all of the above comments but a couple of things strike me. There's a lot to be said about perception of the message, but for the 'owner' to say that he thinks the guys would be more suited to the new course is just a vieled dig. Things could have been handled in a better way!!

I was also quite offended to the term 'new money' being used to describe a degredation of the values of the game. I grew up in a house where money was tight, our house was repossessed and I scrapped enough money together to buy a flat to live in at 22. I have since worked damn hard to become a Senior Manager in the company I work for and also have started a successful business which gives me an income to make me more comfortable and give me some time to take up this great game. Having followed this route I guess I could be termed as 'new money' but why would this (as has been inffered) make me, as someone who has worked bloody hard to achieve what I have achieved any less worthy of maintaining the values of a club that I may become a member. And yes there will be spelling mistakes in this post but it doesn't make you any better than me because you can use spellcheck!!

Matt, as you are a newcomer to this wonderful game perhaps it would be wise to do some research on the origins and idiosyncrasies that this game has gone through to get where it is today. You only see the present, whereas, I, being an old fart, have seen the way it has changed dramatically over the past fifty years. Nothing for the better in my opinion, something which you are entitled to disagree with, and have done so.

If you really do assume that being a Senior manager and an owner of a business are what a private club would be looking for in a prospective member then you certainly have a lot to learn. That alone should tell you the difference between old and new money (The expression I used which offended you so much). You would not have been much use in my platoon with that kind of attitude.

Hi John, thanks for your comments. Maybe if the game has changed so much away from where you would desire it to be then its time to give it up? I on the other hand have found the vast majority of people I have engaged with so far including both members and non members to be most helpful and encouraging.

At no point did I put forward my position of employment as qualifiers for being a member of a private club, nor in fact having I put forward a desire to be a member of a private club (or not) and I will leave that to your assumptions. These factors were put forward as a qualifier for your stereotype of 'new money', but your attitude has not allowed you to understand that.

I have played in many other sports and in one particularly to a very high amateur standard and as a senior player it has always been duty to bring through the next generation and to open doors to enable future talent to emerge. Why should this be different in golf, or should we only be allowing the sons of members to shine through.

Hi Matt, thank you for your comments, even though we are obviously disagreeing.

Everyone who knows me on this forum, and elsewhere, will confirm that I do more to encourage players to improve their game than most, not because of a desire to become popular, but to see everyone reaching the maximum of their capabilities, something I have always done.

As you are saying you are a senior yourself then you will understand that all sports have changed and not always for the better. Golf is one of those in my honest opinion.

"New Money", what does it mean?. It is a term used for the advent in the big upsurge in golf course building that was initially fed by the Corporate market, when this country was booming. Probably 80% of them went bust after taking members money in the form of debentures at grossly inflated prices, which then had an adverse effect on the whole of golf.

Private clubs then realised that they were lagging behind and started to grab what they could with the boom by increasing Green Fees to such an extent that only the rich can afford to play courses that I used to be able to play regularly. Courses like Wentworth, Swinley Forest, The Berkshire, St.Georges Hill, West Hill, Woking, Worplesdon and so an and so on. Far too many to name.

We now have large organisations running large groups of clubs with certain benefits to their members. I am a member of one such group "Crown Golf", not by choice, but because they are now value for money once again.

I am too old now, and am not a good enough player to even think of joining a private club again, as it would take too much time to get to know all the members and I am no longer the competitive animal I was in my younger days.

In the main, Private clubs are still run the way they have always been run for the past 100 years or so and the difference between them and the pay and play of today is vast in almost every respect. The two are as different as chalk and cheese.

Hacking at a golf ball is all I have now, so I will not be taking your advice of packing it all in.

Hello John,

That may be your interpretation of New Money but sounds like spin to me. In my experiance "New Money" means earnt. "Old Money" to means handed down on a silver spoon.

In all honesty would you rather see golf still in the dark ages, an elitist sport with a two year waiting list at every club and having to be reccomended by a dinosaur to join this so called elite.

I say live and let live. I was always led to believe golf was a social game meaning to socialize. Thats with other players, not just your CLICK.

Hello Kaiser, hope you and your dog are well.

All money has to be earned be it old or new.

Judging by your comments I doubt you were playing this game in the so called dark ages. The reasons why there were waiting lists was pretty obvious. Clubs had a limit on the number of members so that the game could be played socially with like minded people, which meant of course that those aspiring to become members made every effort to learn the game and its etiquette so that they would easily fit in when they actually were admitted to a club. This meant, of course, that the only facilities for playing the game were the many public courses. I learned to play the game at one. Chingford, Essex.

I also believe in live and let live, but I also have regard for people and organisations who like a little order in everything.

Golf is a social game and that is why I have never ever played a round of golf on my own. Yet in todays current climate and reading the comments on this forum there are many who do just that, play on their own, and then want to be able to push and shove their way round the course upsetting everyone elses group who are enjoying a social game.

I am quite sure you have your own clique of players whom you play this game with, so don't decry others who do the same. After all, a Society is a clique, isn't it, only open to its members.

gentlemen, i think we need to settle this like true gentlemen maybe pistols at dawn should be the cry and anybody making a wager i will hold the purse, old or new

Don't panic, Philip, it is only make believe, just like the three hundred yard drives we keep reading about.

hi john, shucks !!!! the pistols are back in the box, for now !!

"...or they are of a certain age."

I can imagine the owners face of young Rory McIlroy had walked in off the street....

Golf is a social game and that is why I have never ever played a round of golf on my own. Yet in todays current climate and reading the comments on this forum there are many who do just that, play on their own, and then want to be able to push and shove their way round the course upsetting everyone elses group who are enjoying a social game.

Golf has different meanings to us all John - live and let live. To you it may be social only, but to others it's a hobby or dare I say a competative sport.

A lot of slow play is becasue of social golfers, who'd rather stand and have a gossip like a couple of old bags than play their next shot; so perhaps the game has changed for the better in that sense.

Here's a question,

What would you rather have in the game...? 

Old money snobs with no honour or sportsmanship, or new money gangstas with sportsmanship and a love and enthuesiasm for the game?

(I know thats not the two choices at hand, i.e. im not saying all old money snobs are cheats and that new money guyslove the game etc.)

Listening to Kaiser Edwards comments about the owner of the club and his wager to play another member for a cool one hundred pounds off scratch makes me think that kaiser and his mates did not give the owner or the club the right first empression by rocking up to the club.I am a working class guy but I respect the rules of every golf club that I visit and to date I have never been refused a game of golf even with a busload of golfers,so maybe you should look at yourself first Ed

Hugh Copeland

Hi Everybody,

I have been reading the comments and to be honest maybe we should all look at ourselve me included,Someone commented on Rory McIlroy walking up to the golf club,one thing is for sure Rory learned from an early age to respect golf clubs and their members.I have played golf for a long time and I believe that everyone should get the same respect whether they are a beginner or an old guy like me but I also believe that you have to earn respect and maybe Kaiser did not think he was wrong but first impressions do mean a lot.

Hugh Copeland

Golf has different meanings to us all John - live and let live. To you it may be social only, but to others it's a hobby or dare I say a competative sport.

A lot of slow play is becasue of social golfers, who'd rather stand and have a gossip like a couple of old bags than play their next shot; so perhaps the game has changed for the better in that sense.

To me, jonny golf is all of those things, social, hobby and competition. None of those would ever entice me to play a round of golf on my own, with the obvious hassle I would be giving to all of those playing front of me.

So, in my opinion the game has not changed for the better, and only those of us who are old enough to have played when things were vastly different to what they are now, can possibly know.

You have played with me and you will have realised that I am not the most chatty person you will have played with. I get on with the game.

Slow play is a modern phenomena, something you have grown up with, but because I have stated many times what the speed of play was many years ago, you , either refuse to believe and accept my word or attempt to make excuses for this sad disease that has crept into this wonderful game.

Gone are the days when I could play in a 36 hole competition with a field of 90 on both a Saturday and a Sunday most week-ends during the playing season.

I walk onto the course with two types of HEAD on.

1. Competition Head - I will be trying to put together the best score I can. I will be sometimes chatty and sometimes silent, depends on how much I am needing to concentrate.

2. Social Head - Nothing bothers me. I will talk the hind leg off a donkey, joke and still play a decent game.

Each has a place on the course.

TheLyth

Hi all,

Thanks for all your comments, good anti and bad. I hear what people are saying and in hindsight maybe the 100 notes geture was a tad aggressive but heat of the moment, you can become an inverted snob at times. Golf is social, you tend to play with like minded people and my mates are like me, loud and competitive. I hate loosing but am not a bad looser. I like to play against quieter types sometimes (like John maybe) but I dont play as well when I have to think too much. "DON'T THINK JUST WHACK IT" was logo I saw on a GANGSTA GOLF t shirt once. Never a truer word.I

I always adhere to the rules of the game and respect other players, infact I'm a stickler for the rules.
John its no good wishing for the good old days. Yesterdays gone and tomorrow, today will be history. Move on.

Kaiser, I moved on a long time ago when I realised that things were never going to be the same where golf was concerned.

That fact  does not preclude me from stating my views on where it has all gone wrong.

John

 I have been lurking on this Forum for sometime and may I say that I hope one day to have the pleasure of playing a round with you and your many friends on here.

 I am sure you have seen many changes in the game over your years but hats off to you for accepting the changes and ensuring that you still enjoy your game.

Kaiser,

I have a group of guys I play with here in Singapore although very well heeled they are still 'working class' hero's who enjoy a loud and competitive game - if you're in this part of the world I can arrange a game.

 Steve

Cheers Steve.

I my just take you up on that one day. I promise to behave.

Mucho Respecto