i know quite a few of you guys use these gps devices and i have been looking around at some models myself looking for the best/cheapest deal

also looking at  software for my new phone but unfortunately my new phone is not compatiblep.s its a samsung pixon it does have gps but only for tagging in photos i believe

then i stumbled upon this site

http://freecaddie.com/FAQ.aspx

which leads to the final question in the faq's

and this site

http://www.semsons.com/nosyblgpsres.html

i know its a usa site but that particular model is available in the uk

 

my question is

1, is this model any good

2, does anybody else have/used this

3, will it work as good as some of the top of range gps models

 

 

darren

 

Darren

Since someone on this site posted about freecaddie.com I have been toying with setting something up. I already have a windows 5 mobile phone from work (HTC S620) and have just bought one of these, it arrived this morning. Cheapest one I could find.

http://www.blahdvd.com/Hw/BTGP-38-Bluetooth-GPS-Receiver-NEMERIX-Chipset/AD
-BLUE-GPS/product.htm

I have no idea if it is any good, or if my phone battery will last a whole round.
If you are playing in the winter league at Bondhay on Sunday you can take a look.

John

 

Darren

Since someone on this site posted about freecaddie.com I have been toying with setting something up. I already have a windows 5 mobile phone from work (HTC S620) and have just bought one of these, it arrived this morning. Cheapest one I could find.

http://www.blahdvd.com/Hw/BTGP-38-Bluetooth-GPS-Receiver-NEMERIX-Chipset/AD
-BLUE-GPS/product.htm

I have no idea if it is any good, or if my phone battery will last a whole round.
If you are playing in the winter league at Bondhay on Sunday you can take a look.

John

 

hi john

yes i will be at bondhay

see you there m8

 

Hi Darren,

I have been using freecaddie since june last year, excellent, and at the right price.

Anyone who already has a GPS device, such as a handheld or mobile phone sat nav which runs on microsoft windows mobile platforms download the free software and install it on your GPS, you will need to register but its all free. Download various courses from the database or create your own. I use an handheld PC (hp iPaq Travel Companion) sat nav and it is spot on for yardage markers. Very impressive and best of all its FREE.

There is already quite an impressive database of courses in the UK and its quite easy to create your own course map using google earth, all the instructions are on the site. I have created quite a few and are quite accurate. If enough of us use it we should cover all the courses we are likely to play.

I use the Sureshot 8800 & love it. I also had the Skycaddie for a month but got bought the Sureshot as a 'gift' for some work I had done.

There are specs from both I'd like to merge together to create the ultimate GPS but I'm quite happy with the Sureshot. I can score my round & stats hole by hole, it's colour screen & easy to use.

If your unsure go to a golf retailer & ask for a demo.

John.

John can you do a reveiw on pro's and cons between them including value for money.

Losing your eyesight and feel then, David, need reassurance on the distance.

Dave,

I'll PM you a review tomorrow & then if anyone else is interested I may post it on the forums.

Afraid so John ,If only that was the only thing i'm losing these days.............

JOHN

yes i would like to see the review as well

i assume that some other golfers would as well, so if you could post it in here

would be great

thanx

 

as for my original post i wont be investing in that model as of yet, for the simple reason that my phone is not windows based, might look into getting one though.

spoke to john flynn at bondhay and saw a demo of his and after the round spoke again to hear that his gps reciever with his phone was working fine and giving accurate yardages to within 1-2 yds of his playing partner who had a sureshot

Another question has now arisen with this

 

can you get software for a sat nav so instead of roads it will be golf courses

tom tom 1 or similar device perhaps????

Another question has now arisen with this

 

can you get software for a sat nav so instead of roads it will be golf courses

tom tom 1 or similar device perhaps????

Right, here's my OWN personal opinion on 2 GPS devices that I have owned & used for 4 or more rounds of golf.

Skycaddie SG2.5

 

This was the 1st of the 2 devices that I used & my preference for choosing this model was at the time of purchase it was £50 cheaper than it's nearest rivals (£149).

On arrival of the unit it had to be charged for a minimum of 5hrs but this could be done whilst it was plugged into the PC. This enabled me to install the software on my PC to 'sync' with the GPS device & also register & activate the device.

In order to be able to use this once it was charged required you to 'sign up' to one of their three annual membership schemes, these range from £19.95 (just UK) up to £39.95 (worldwide).You are then able to choose courses & download them to your device. The SG2.5 can hold 10 courses (more expensive models can hold more).

Once on the course they suggest turning the device on 10mins prior to playing to allow it to get a strong GPS signal. The buttons are easy to use & the menus are quite simple to use. In all fairness you could use this device without having to press a button during your round as it automatically detects which hole your playing (even if your on the wrong fairway!!) so all you need to do is look at the screen.

The screen on the SG2.5 is black & white (it's colour on the more expensive models) & is quite easy to read in sunlight. It gives you distances to the front, middle & back of the green & it also allows you to move the on screen cursor to pin point the exact flag position. If you require more detailed info you can press the 'target' button & it will give details on hazards etc. It will also give you 'lay-up' distances, for example it will display 170yrds leaves 100yrds, this was a feature I thought was really useful on par 5's or long par 4's as I'm quite comfortable playing a full 100yd wedge into a green.

If you want to measure how far your ball travelled you simply press the 'mark' button from your starting position & then again when you reach your end position. This put paid to the theory that your average drive is 260yrds!! You'll be surprised at the actual distance

the size of the unit is quite small & lightweight. you can either clip it onto your bag using the 'belt-clip' which is really good & has the option of a 'quick release' button or it can quite comfortably be carried around in your jacket pocket.

Overview of the skycaddie

Pros : Lightweight, small, black & white version is good value, quick release belt clip & layup yardage.

Cons : Have to pay a subscription before you can use it, can't edit courses already mapped, small(ish) screen

Sureshot 8800

The 2nd of my devices was the Sureshot 8800. This was bought for me as a gift & it cost £199.99, slightly more expensive than the skycaddie.

On arrival of the unit it had to be charged for a minimum of 5hrs & could not be switched on to register etc until fully charged . Once charged I was able to register the device, setup my preferences & download courses.

To use this device straight away did not require any subscriptions as your are entitled to 3 course downloads, I thought this was an excellent idea. The unit itself can store up to 20 courses. You can also 'edit' the courses to take into account any new hazards etc that have been built.

Again to use it on the course they recommend turning it on 10mins prior to playing. There are more buttons than the Skycaddie but this is because it can do a lot more than the skycaddie. The menus are simple & once you have used it a few times they become 2nd nature. I must admit that I did need to read the manual to be able to use all the features but then again I like reading manuals

The screen on the 8800 is colour and is really easy to read in sunlight, even direct sunlight. It gives you distances to the front, middle & back of the green & it also allows you to move the on screen cursor to pin point the exact flag position. If you require more detailed info you can press the up & down keys & it will give colurful detailed images of the hazards (there are that many that they provide a waterproof legend card so you can take it out with you but I've not had to use that yet).

As with the SG2.5 it allows you to measure your distance with the same ease.

Now this is where the sureshot leaves the SG2.5 standing. On every hole you can record fairways hit, greens in regulation, sand saves, up/downs, putts & the final score. After 9 holes you can review your stats on the screen as it gives you a simple screen showing the above. It also shows this after 18holes.  It will also save this score so you can download it to your PC later (great if you want to input it into golfshake)

the size of the unit is bigger then the skycaddie & I don't think you could carry it in your pocket. I have been using the beltclip to attach it to my bag which once secured is very sturdy, but would have benefited from the 'quick release' button on the skycaddie as trying to get it off is a bit cumbersome, & more recently using a tie strap (the things you use to secure large items in a car boot or on a roof rack) to secure it to my Powakaddy & it works a treat.

Overview of theSureshot

Pros : Get 3 free courses to download, edit mapped courses, track score & stats, large colour screen.

Cons : Bit too big to carry in your pocket, belt clip bit awkward to get off.

So which one would I recommend??

In all honesty there both great units & if I hadn't have had the Sureshot bought as a gift I probably wouldn't have swapped but after trying them both out I would recommend the Sureshot for the following reasons

• you don't need to subscribe to initially use it so if you only play 3 courses you don't need to spend another single penny.
• being able to record your stats, if your out practising you don't need to bother with a scorecard & pencil.
• the sureshot 'sync' software is easier to use.
• the ability to edit courses.
• the larger screen

the only area the sureshot falls down for me is not having the 'lay-up' yardage but I suppose a bit of mental arithmetic can get around that & not having the quick release button on the belt clip is a let down. I have included the links to both websites, & some photos of the sureshot in action, if you require anymore info

 

 

 

Sureshot

Skycaddie

John.

GPS should be banned -

Of the few people I have seen use one, they spend half the time trying to get a signal, and the other half punching their scores in and looking up their statistics on the tee.

The argument for them over a yardage book is that it saves time - but it seems to actually add time while the techy's get a signal, then get yardages from every position and to every hazard on the course, all before even thinking of playing his/her shot.

 

 

Jonny,

Of the people I know & play with who have these we play quicker. No need to find 150yrd marker & then pace out. Just look at the screen pick club & swing.

I think the people you refer to would just be as slow with a stroke saver & it's not the GPS that's to blame.

I know you have played golf with Dave Ley & he uses one, was this your experience when he used it??

 

John.

The first time I played with Dave I didn't even notice he had one until the 4th - certainly didn't hold us up.

It's like anything - used right it won't cause delay, but for some it seems there's just too much they can do they can't resist doing it all. Ironically, the ones I've seen spending ages getting yardages are the ones that nob everything 10 yards anyway.

I appreciate the need for accurate yardages for good ball strikers, but feel yardages on sprinkler heads is a much better option - a quick glance and your done.

John (or anyone else that's got one) - why do you feel the need to use one?

Jonny,

your assuming that all courses have yardgaes on sprinklers? At Conwy there are up to 5 different coloured markers (but yellow can sometime be 100, 150 & 200) on the fairway & unless you have a strokesaver (or a GPS ) you won't know what yardage they are??

Surely taking the time to look for the markers & then working out how far away you are from it is longer than me just looking at my screen & getting the exact yardage???

Why do I feel the need for one, easy really. the same reason we all buy new equipment, to help improve our game.

I know most don't bother with yardages on sprinkler heads - shame.

It would stop people having to spend money that's what it'd do

I agree they give a great yardage (and one more accurate than the eye), but my point on their benefit is twofold:

a) None of us hit it pure enough to have an exact yardage be of any benefit.
b) Even if a you did, once we have the yardage number exactly. We have to tyake off or add on many variables such as (but not limited to) wind speed, wind direction, time of day, time of year, type of grass, green elevation, shot type required (punch, floaty etc), club in hand, how your feeling, type of ball your using..

The list goes one - I believe most of these things are 'felt' from good players to bad players, and the yardage is just a fraction of that, and really means little once you've factored in all the other variables.

My logic being that if you feel 90% of the disatnce, the 10% the gps gives you isn't very helpful in the grand scheme of things. And second to that - there is a tendancy to just accept the figure and not calculate the other varaibales listed above. As humans we tend to accept what computers give us as correct far more than they really are. Rather like when you first get a satnav and the machine says "turn left" you don't check what's comming as you subconsiously start relying on the satnav to tell you what is 'right'.

A false sense of security is probably a better way of putting it.

At the moment nothing aids me in the decission making side of playing golf, I like the way you blend thinking with physical ability in this game. As soon as I start using a GPS, I'd feel some of that was taken away from me, devaluing my experience and the feeling of achievement I'd have of playing well.

That's how I see them anyway..would be interested to play with one, or with someone who had one, and see if it does help - I haven't done that so not in a position to comment really.I'd be interested if anyone else was as weird like I, and felt it would reduce their sense of achievement at the end of a round.

I am with you 100% Jonny P. You made the argument against pretty solid. Today I had to hit a six iron from 125 yds against a very strong wind to make the green.

I glanced back at the 150 yd marker post on the side of the fairway, guessed the 25 yds and decided on what I thought I needed, took it, played it excatly as I wanted to, and ended up on the green. The gps would probably have given me the same yardage and I would have factored in all the variables and come up with the same shot,but because I don't possess a gps, I have to use what else is available to me. A part of the game that I enjoy very much.

 

Jonny / John.

I'm not trying to make any argument why you should use one I just posted my opinion on 2 GPS devices because 2 members expressed an interest in them.

b) Even if a you did, once we have the yardage number exactly. We have to tyake off or add on many variables such as (but not limited to) wind speed, wind direction, time of day, time of year, type of grass, green elevation, shot type required (punch, floaty etc), club in hand, how your feeling, type of ball your using..

Surely this all adds to the time taken to decide which club to hit & goes against what you were saying about people taking ages to play their shot? If your a player who really needs to factor in all those varaiables then you must be of a standard where you are very very good & surely you'd want to know the exact yardage?

If you don't like them fair do's but try to except that other people do use them & do like them.

Your argument on why you don't want to use them can easily be used as why someone wouldn't want to use a rescue club, gap wedge, big headed driver, non shank wedges, the list goes on. But the fact is we do & we do it to aid us in making this game a little easier.

John.

I think that if anyone wants to use one then I have no problem at all with it. I am quite sure that if I had one then I would use it. I don't believe that having one slows the game down at all it is the time taken over the shot and the ambling around that makes for slow play.

I froze today, last out and 4 and half hours of waiting for every shot. 40 out, 48 back.

I agree John,

I heard you had a good knock on Friday with Chris, looks like the old form is slowly returning.

 

Your argument on why you don't want to use them can easily be used as why someone wouldn't want to use a rescue club, gap wedge, big headed driver, non shank wedges, the list goes on. But the fact is we do & we do it to aid us in making this game a little easier.

Likewsie your argument that they help you can be used as an argument to allow gadgets that read break so one doesn't have to read greens, or a tool that judges wind speed so you know how far left or right to aim.

I don't doubt that one day we will see such things on the course, and I don't doubt that one day they will be legal for competative play (under a general rule, not as it stands now).

In my mind the gPS is just one of the final straws that will break the camels back. For the last 20 years manufacturers have tapped into the market that everyone wants to buy something that makes the game easier for them.

From driving around the golf course in carts, to balls that go on for miles, and gps that tells you how far you need to hit it.

In line with this trend of technology, is an alarming decline in the number of people playing golf - is it too weird to put two and two together? The alure of the game to me is that it is so darn difficult - making it easier makes it blander in many respects.

I tested some massive cavity backed golf clubs the other day, the fitter assured me my ballflight would be more reliable and the computer backed this claim up - but man did good shots feel crap compared to my current clubs. I want to shoot as well as the next man, but if it's at the expense of feeling that one pure strike, im not interested.

PS: As for accepting people who use them - I'm fine with it - just giving an argument from the viewpoint of someone who thinks differently. I know im in the minority and sound like an old codger but it's all good healthy debating

 

Likewsie your argument that they help you can be used as an argument to allow gadgets that read break so one doesn't have to read greens, or a tool that judges wind speed so you know how far left or right to aim.

Not really a valid point as none of those devices exist whereas my examples all do so not really comparing like for like?

In line with this trend of technology, is an alarming decline in the number of people playing golf - is it too weird to put two and two together? The alure of the game to me is that it is so darn difficult - making it easier makes it blander in many respects.

Not sure where your getting your stats from but the last time I looked golf is more popular than ever with more peopke taking up the sport, even to the extent of trying to get it into the olympics!!!

Not sure where your getting your stats from but the last time I looked golf is more popular than ever with more peopke taking up the sport, even to the extent of trying to get it into the olympics!!!

Business Week I think it was. Plenty of studies in the states to illustrate the problem..

Golf in the olympics - now that's worthy of a seperate thread

Giving the yardage to the front, middle and back of the green is hardly going to make you play better golf. Why should the amateur golfer suffer when the tour pro's have the information at their disposal and have done for years not unless i am going to map my course to exact yardages myself.

Jonny,

In line with this trend of technology, is an alarming decline in the number of people playing golf - is it too weird to put two and two together? The alure of the game to me is that it is so darn difficult - making it easier makes it blander in many respects.

Is this the article you were referring to?? It only covers Amercia & none of it's research is UK related & none of it's research said the decline was anything to do with technology??

I think the reason for the decline in people playing golf is more to do with the current economical climate that were in.

Martin,

Giving the yardage to the front, middle and back of the green is hardly going to make you play better golf. 

Didn't say it would but it makes my club decision a lot easier & helps speed up play.

 

Giving the yardage to the front, middle and back of the green is hardly going to make you play better golf. 

Didn't say it would but it makes my club decision a lot easier & helps speed up play.

John, to be fair I was under the same understanding that you used one becasue you were of the impression that it made you a better player. You said: "Why do I feel the need for one, easy really. the same reason we all buy new equipment, to help improve our game."

If you use one just to speed up your pace, and it speeds you up I guess it's good that you have GPS.

The way I play it wouldn't speed me up, but for those that need it, I'm all for that for sure!!

Jonny,

Again you assume wrong

I'm by no means a slow player (ask any of the golfshake members who have played with me) & having a GPS helps improve my game in that if I know I have 165yrds & I can club correctly rather than guessing, getting it wrong which leaves me short or over the back which then leads to more shots taken which increases the time taken to complete the hole.

Before you say "but how do you know how far you hit each club" I'll tell you, last year I spent about 2 months on the practice field hitting 20-30 balls with each club & then measuring the average distance so I have a pretty good understanding. I will need to repeat this as I have just had a new set of clubs.

My comment regarding "it won't make you a better player" was implying that if you have a GPS it won't make you a better ball striker. You still have to hit the ball but knowing the correct distance takes another piece of guesswork out of the equation.

hope that answers your question

ps, can I just add that when I play using my GPS all of my playing partners always say "how far does your thingy say I have??".

You said it improves your game - I took that to mean it improves your scores. My bad - as they say in America..

I often ask for a yardage when I'm with a GPS user - I have no shame in admitting that It's like having a caddie with me which feels kind of neat.

But, my pont is that I don't go by what it tells me all the time. There are so many other factors I actually just go through my usual routine in assesing what I need to do, put simply, I just look and feel.

It's the same when my ball is adjacent to the 150 marker, I sometimes think 'no way am I hitting the ball 150 from here, and will take a 9 iron or something' sometimes it just doesn't look right, and that is down to all the other factors and conditions that make up the yardage calculation.

I agree it gives a more accurate starting point.

Why should the amateur golfer suffer when the tour pro's have the information at their disposal and have done for years not unless i am going to map my course to exact yardages myself.

That is true, but lets remember that the pro game and the social game are two very difgferent beasts.

Nearly all of the problem we have with slow play is becasue people replicate what they see on TV in the pro game - high handicappers walking around their putt, throwing grass in the air, having 5 practice swings, cleaning the ball, lining the ball up with the hole, getting yardages to every hazard on the course - all time spent faffing before the ball is even hit.

"Stevie uses a GPS, so I must use a GPS" - "Tiger walks 360 degrees around his putt, so I must walk 360 degrees around this putt"

I am too young to remember, but nearly every golf history book I have suggests there were massive problems in days gone by when rounds started going over 3 and a half hours for professional games. That caused an uproar.

Imagine that now - it'd be seen as the fastest round all year.

In those days, they just walked up to it and hit it, so I don't think that argument that what the pros do is fair game for what us social golfers do.

Sadly those days will never return.

No reason why it shouldn't really - if they speed up the professionals, they will speed up us hackers.

But organisers are so scared of upseting the stars of today that yeah your probably right - it won't ever happen.

 

I feel that over the years it is the little things that have been introduced that have had this affect on the speed of play.

At my club in Somerset, which was fairly hilly everyone carried their bag, which is the shortest way round a golf course and by far the quickest. We never had 150 yard markers so never ever thought about them. Eyesight is what was used to determine the distance and it is amazing how one gets the feel for distance, as opposed to known length very quickly.

I still play this way myself. as I do not have fixed distances for every club. I am forced now to play a more strategic game so most of the time I am laying up to my favoured distances, anything from 125 yds in suits me fine.

Likewsie John, I can't stand buggies and think they ruin the enjoyment unless one needs one to get around the course.

Despite what John said - the game is failing to attract the numbers it used to, you just have to play in American to see why - everyone drives around, they order food half way around, they use computers to judge everything - it's just watering down the game. All these little improvements add up.

For someone like John who's been playing the game without such tools - one can use them perfectly fine. But it's the ones coming up who will never learn to judge a distance with eyesight or feel - or those who have never walked a golf course.

I have some mates in the states who were brought up driving around the course - occasionaly, they are forced to walk - perhaps once every 2 years or so - and they hate it, they see it as a real hardship.

Funny, but sad.

How many times have we seen the professionals discuss the yardage with their caddie taking into account that they supposedly know how far they hit each club and then proceed to hit it through the green, or come up short.

Knowing the exact yardage to the pin is, of course a great help as is how far on the green the pin is positioned but for any given distance there will most probably be a range of three clubs to choose from depending on how the players actually sees the shot.

I get bewildered when I see high handicappers blast their wedges over the green, this tells me that they have no eye or feel for the distance, which is vital for good scoring.

I also agree with jonny P that there is a decline in the numbers playing now, probably because there are now too many courses vying  for the business. I much preferred it in the days when golfers joined golf clubs and played most of their golf at the club. Playing new courses, although nice to do, does not really help to maintain decent form because every course will have greens that are completely different to what one is used to.

The greens are the most important part of a golf course, without quality greens scoring becomes difficult. Just imagine the pros trying to play on the greens that we are subjected to these days. They would have a fit.

JP

your comment on being bewildered by players blasting wedges over the green

my situation on sunday at bondhay

as with different variations in weather conditions i had 165yds to the center of a green

knowing roughly how far i can hit each iron and with the wind being behind us i decided to hit a 9iron to which that went sailing through the green

and 2 holes later same situation but int the wind same distance i hit a 5iron and came up short

i agree some of the higher handicap players might not have the sasme feel for the game but to be fair they may strike the ball better on some occasions than others

maybe it was the same for me but i felt like i had the correct club each time and had a good strike

and as you have stated even the pros can do exactly the same thing so does that mean that they dont have the feel as well.

 i originally started this thread on gps devices as i was thinking of getting one mainly to help me judge the distance to the greens and hazards as you can never rely on yellow/white/red stakes on some course so for me a gps would speed my game up as i wouldnt be looking for the markers all the time

in my 18yrs of playing/hacking around a golf course i have never known anyone go to a course they have never played with no yardage markers and just "judged the distance/club" just by looking at wha they think they should be using, if this has been the case then my opinion is that it is more luck than judgment

But, my pont is that I don't go by what it tells me all the time. There are so many other factors I actually just go through my usual routine in assesing what I need to do, put simply, I just look and feel.

I agree you have to take other factors into account, you'd be a fool to think that you can take your 150yrd club into a 20mph wind against you.#

Despite what John said - the game is failing to attract the numbers it used to, you just have to play in American to see why - everyone drives around, they order food half way around, they use computers to judge everything - it's just watering down the game. All these little improvements add up.

this isn't necessarily the case for the UK?

I also agree with jonny P that there is a decline in the numbers playing now, probably because there are now too many courses vying  for the business. I much preferred it in the days when golfers joined golf clubs and played most of their golf at the club. Playing new courses, although nice to do, does not really help to maintain decent form because every course will have greens that are completely different to what one is used to.

Are you saying that there is a decline in people joining clubs or a decline in people playing golf??

John.

 

Darren, you have only confirmed what I said in the first place, in that knowing the yardage is not much use if one doies not have a feel for distance, which encompasses all the little vagueries that can affect a golf shot. I could never hit a nine iron 165 yds even downwind, but as you said there are many high handicappers who can give the ball a good wallop, I played with one last week at my club, Chris Perry.

There are not many pros these days that have the flair and the imagination of someone like Seve. They all rely on a methodical repeating swing. All of them strike the ball excveptionally well, as we would expect of them, the difference between them is the abilty to score well when the striking is not that good and to also have an exceptional short game combined with an excellent putting stroke that can hole out under pressure.

18 years it has taken you to find that person who has never bought a yardage chart in his life and has always trusted his eyesight. Luck, certainly can play a part in golf, sometimes even bad luck, but it is easy to blame poor play on things other than ones own shotmaking decisions.

I will arrive at Wokefield for the first time for the NvS and once on the first tee I will start to absorb all the information I feel I will need to enable me to play each hole to the best of my abilities, which at the present time are pretty dodgy. But hope springs eternal, as they say.

I think we are going around in cirlces are we not.

There is a decline in the states - not sure about UK, although most things do spill over. I'd be intersted to read the report you saw that suggests it's a growing market - most clubs I know are struggling as are most businesses.

Darren how long does it take you to look at a marker - or a yardage chart? Both of which can be done whilst you walk to your ball by the way. With GPS don't you have to arrive at your location to get a distance?

I really can't see how GPS speeds up play unless your doing something wrong...

John, can you help us - what was your average round time before & after GPS?

 

I don't think that gps slows the game down even though I don't own one. My only time I get to look at them is when they are on the buggy and are working. Interestingly I can be parked at a tee and the yardage will be different to what the card says and also diferent to my friends personal sureshot. So they all have their problems.

Slow play has only become noticeable since the introduction of all these new USGA courses that have been built in the past twenty years or so. Very few have the ninth coming back to the clubhouse, there are many long walks between greens and tees (Poor design) and even though we always seem to play off the yellows we still have to walk the full distance of the course, and, as we all know they all seem to be 7000 yards long.

Every new course is called a championship course, which means absolutely nothing. Wentworth is famous because one sees it on the TV holding major tournamenmts yet there are five clubs within 15 miles that are a much sterner test for the professionals and are never heard of. The whole game now is based on hype, from the courses to the equipment, which is a great shame.

A fourball at my club in Somerset would be a three hour experience, all carrying our own bags. All the Open tournaments I used to play in had a minimum field of 72 players and we played 36 holes, had lunch in between and all in the clubhouse in time for the presentation. This is not achievable today. Why? I just don't know.

I tend to select my club by eye rather than yardage markers/books.  I tend to step up to the ball, decide what club I need to get me to where I want to be based on having an eye for the distance and the club required, pull it out the bag and hit it.  Sometimes I get it wrong, usually by taking too much club, but 8 times out of 10 I'm not far away. 

I do use the yardage markers for verification if they are within 10-20 yards of my ball, and course planners get used on courses I don't know so that I know where the hazards are.  I also refer to course planners when I want to lay up to see where the best spot would be that takes the danger out of the equation.  I will admit that if someone with me has a GPS I will ask them what it says out of interest, but I'm normally within 5% with my estimate.

We all get it wrong at times, Chris, but we learn from it. Your overall game impressed me very much, a little tweaking and you should come right down.

John Flood

I was sticking up for you hence the reason i said "why should the amateur golfer suffer.

Actually Martin - the pro's use Rangefinders, not GPS devices.

GPS isn't accurate enough.

Jonny P

I never said they use GPS if you read it correctly, i said they had all the correct information at their disposal

John Flood

Thank you very much spending the time to give me and others the information about the two products you discussed, it has been very helpfull as i am going to purchace one soon. I like the idea that you don't have to pay a subscription.

How many times have i hooked the ball onto the next fairway and then had to run across to see a yardage marker, plenty let me tell you,and i have played golf for a long time, and this will speed up my game no end plus i can get an accurate distance of what i hit every club using the ball mark.

Martin,

I'm glad that you appreciate my effort & hope it makes your decision a little easier. I'm in the process of updating the review with some more photo's of the 8800 (can't do it for the skycaddie as I don't have it anymore)

Jonny,
I really can't see how GPS speeds up play unless your doing something wrong...

If you as a player never look for the yardage markers & then use these to work out your yardage then I agree GPS won't speed up your play but I can't imagine any player not having to do this?

John, can you help us - what was your average round time before & after GPS?

I can only comment on rounds where I have been playing as a single (practice rounds) as I can't control the playing speed of playing partners. I would say that before using a GPS I would take about 1hr 30mins to play 9 holes & with the GPS it's about 1hr 10mins.

 

Nice review John thanks for taking the time.

Aww shucks

martin

How many times have i hooked the ball onto the next fairway and then had to run across to see a yardage marker, plenty let me tell you,and i have played golf for a long time, and this will speed up my game no end plus i can get an accurate distance of what i hit every club using the ball mark.

hmmm to be honest im not sure if gps would help in this situation, 1 thing i have noticed with some of my playing partners is that when you hit your ball onto another fairway (especially if its the next hole that runs in the oposite direction) then the gps automatically updates itself to think that its actually playing the next hole (or whichever hole you have strayed onto)

 

also i agree with above comments thanks to john for the reviews 

 

BUT 

NOBODY YET HAS ANSWERED MY ORIGINAL POST 

oh well

i will have to keep trawling the market and get debates like this going on other forums

 

 

Darren,

Both the skycaddie & the sureshot will help in the situation if you stray onto another fairway. With the sureshot you have to use the keys to move to the next hole & with the skycaddie if it thinks you have finished the previous hole but it is unsure it will ask you to confirm "Hole no2?"

 As for your original question you have to take into account using a PDA or windows phone the following;

• does it have built in GPS, if not you will have to carry a GPS bluetooth receiver.
• if it does are you charged by your mobile provider for using GPS?
• will using the GPS have a drastic effect on the battery life?
• if other players see you messing with a mobile on the course they might think your making a call & 'report' you.
• will it work in direct sunlight.

I asked all these before I bought mine & thought that having a device that is built for the sole purpose of golf GPS was better than messing around with mobiles. My opinion.

John.

 

JOHN

thanx, yes i think your correct a specific golf gps would be better

after speaking to john flyn after the bondhay round his mobile battery went flat walking up the 18th fairway

wil  have to sweet talk the other half to buy me one for my birthday in april

JOHN

thanx, yes i think your correct a specific golf gps would be better

after speaking to john flyn after the bondhay round his mobile battery went flat walking up the 18th fairway

wil  have to sweet talk the other half to buy me one for my birthday in april

Jonny,
I really can't see how GPS speeds up play unless your doing something wrong...

If you as a player never look for the yardage markers & then use these to work out your yardage then I agree GPS won't speed up your play but I can't imagine any player not having to do this?

John, can you help us - what was your average round time before & after GPS?

I can only comment on rounds where I have been playing as a single (practice rounds) as I can't control the playing speed of playing partners. I would say that before using a GPS I would take about 1hr 30mins to play 9 holes & with the GPS it's about 1hr 10mins.

 

John, I look at yardages all the time. But it takes me approximatly 2-5 seconds - no word of a lie. My routine is on the tee to look down the fairway and decide where to hit. I really never look at how far a bunker is, or how far to a pond as I just focus on the fairway - I honestly don't see hazards.

If I stood there working this stuff out then yeah GP would speed me up.

For my second shot assuming I've hit the fairway or thereabouts - I can quite easily see where it is befor eI even leave the tee. IF not then it comes into play during my walk to the ball - I take in my yardages then (I don't work them out, but you use markers that you pass as reference points)

If I am playing well or taking it uber seriously, I may even make a note of when I pass the 150 yard marker and count my steps to the ball to get an accurate yardage. As I am walking to my ball anyway it adds no time what so ever.

If your saving 20 mins off half a round by using a GPS - that's a jaw dropping number, and fair play to you. But it does suggest that you spent a large portion of your time on the course working out yardages (nearly 3/4 of an hour for a full round) before your GPS which is I think where we differ, and obviosuly why we see this from different perspectives.

It's not how I play the game, but I'm the first to admit my course management is poor. Maybe this is a realisation that I should be spending time pacing and working out yardages, being more methodical...

But then as you said, that adds on 40 extra mins per round, and I'd start feeling slow as (most) of my playing partners play as I do.

It's a tough one - I do think if I perhaps was more methodical it may benefit me.

Edit: I downloaded a gps tool for my phone - I'll give it a bash

Edit 2: Accurate to 20 yards, rubbish (iPhone), deleted.

jonny,

the 20mins saved was not just saving me time working out yardages but also saving me time from not having to play extra shots either because I was coming up short or going over the back of greens.

As you said you assume that your going to hit the fairways but what if you stray to another fairway & you can't see the yardage markers??

Were never going to agree on this so I'll agree to disagree

 

PS I've updated the review for those of you who read it the first time.

Thanks JOhn for the best review on these devices that I've seen yet, and surely you can't disgree with this whether you agree with the use of such devices or not.

If in future I am thinking of purchasing one of these devices I now know who to contact.

I know it seldom comes accross on forums, but I'm not disagreeing as such, I'm just learning and questioning. I don't agree with everything, but am always open to new stuff. As I say, if anything I think i'm a bit too quick to just hit a shot - I need to think my way around more, and that's come out of this thread.

One thing I think is that a GPS would force me to think about yardages which would be a good thing.

I need to figure out what I hit each club first - and when I do I'll use a GPS for those measurements

Jonny,

i measured all my club distances the old fashioned way with a trundle wheel!! you should have seen peoples faces when they saw me walking up & down the practice area with the wheel!!

I intend doing it for my new clubs with the GPS.

Initially that's how I was going to do it - £10 on ebay

Got mine for £3, £2.50 P&P.

Hi John

Thanks for all the information you provided,much appreciated and going to go for the sureshot as i think it just gives you a little more information,colour screen and no subsctiption fee.

Cheers Martin

This relates to Darren's initial question.

I had a Windows Mobile device, bought a GPS bluetooth dongle and tried some software and as previously mentioned the accuracy could be upto 8 yards out.  I now have a G1 and similar to Jonny's point above about iphones, I've heard the GPS accuracy on these can also be hit and miss.

Therefore anyone know what the accuracy of a specific golf GPS is like ?  and technically if they are accurate why are they more accurate than mobile phones/PDAs ?

I do believe you can increase the mobile phone accuracy by adding mast triangulation so that you use GPS and the mobile masts to increase accuracy to within 2 yards but again as someone mentioned above phones lack battery power for a full round at present.

Regards, Darren.

Thought i would throw my pennies in.

I have two different types of gps systems. sureshot that i love and IT DOES speed the game up. When i play with others i offer the yardage if they want it, rather than hunting for markers and pacing out. It IS useful, regardless of handicap. Knowing the front and back of greens for you approach shot is very handy.

As for Pro's not using them, you are so WRONG! I was given a CaddieAid to test and review for a supplier. This item uses Photographs to display the holes, overlaid with GPS information etc. The Pro's do not use it, but the Pro's Caddies do, even in the Open they use it. In fact, over half the field for the last Open used one! GPS units have been accepted for use on the tour for the last 2 years.

A further couple of points. The Sureshot i have locks in after about 2 minutes (time taken to walk from car park to first tee. My sureshot lasts three rounds before the battery goes flat. I have never lost GPS signal during a round, although i would admit it has locked up twice whilst playing. But thats twice in something like 150 rounds of golf.

Have i been stuck on the course watching people pacing out form markers (when they have managed to find the markers that is), yes, loads of times!

 

Allan,

Thanks for the info. I thought the caddie's also used the GPs but I'm not sure if there only allowed in practice rounds??

I agree with all your comments.

From the information i was given when testing the CaddieAid, they are used during the rounds.

What did you think of the caddieaid Al?

I have had a skycaddie sg5 for over a year now and love it.

I dont think it saves significant amount of time during a round but it saves more time than it adds.

The benefits of GPS for me are not necessarily knowing the distance to the green. As mentioned above i can get a good idea of that from the 150 markers, accurate enough for the distance consistancy i have. 

The main benefit for me is knowing distances to hazards from the tee and how far to leave myself a comfortable approach shot on the longer holes. This is where i feel it really helps to improve my game and course management.

One plus the sky cddie has is that it actually has the shape of the green on the screen, this rotates inline with your angle of approach, i find this is a big advantage for finding the safe shot.  

The Pro's do not use it, but the Pro's Caddies do, even in the Open they use it. In fact, over half the field for the last Open used one!

From the information i was given when testing the CaddieAid, they are used during the rounds.

Alan, GPS is not allowed during pro tournaments, let alone the Open Championship.

In your own words - "you are so wrong"

I mean, they are not even allowed during my monthly medal - to think you'd think we'd have more stringent rules than the Open makes me chuckle.

 

Caddie Aid

I still have it, as i tested it for a while then kept it for free, although i have had to pay for courses on it.

Courses - Very fast response if a course is not listed, usually within hours, so far always within 24 hours. Courses cost £6, or a block puchase makes then cheaper.

Benefits -

1. I think i am right in saying, this is the only unit that has a full real picture of each hole, which then overlays GPS information on top of it.

2. It gives the usual distances to bunkers etc as standard, but you can then tap the screen to get distances to certain points on each hole (lay up points).

3. You can review the course you are going to play before you arrive, see how the holes are designed, if its a dog leg, work out what distance before you run out of fairway etc.

4. Works without a GPS feed into it. As there is so much detail for each hole, you can find where you are with ease and then range to bunkers greens etc. I think this is the only system with this facility.

Cons

1. The screen suffers from daylight, so you need the flip cover for best results.

2. I had one course that the picture was out of date

3. Another course had missed off a tee, but within 2 hours they sent me an amended file with the tee now in view.

4. Data is in a small font when displaying ranges etc.

Overall - A great unit that lets you see what you are up against. Has more data than other systems (SG5 / Sureshot), as its a real picture of the hole. But with all that said, i still find and use the Sureshot as i think its a better aid when on the course,

But i still use the caddieaid when looking at a new course for the first time. Although Golfshake do pictures of courses, its not to the same detail.

This might interest you then Jonny P.......

DMC are flying Carnoustie, Kingsbarns and St Andrews, ready for the Open Championship as well as the Dunhill later in the year. "The 2007 Open Championship, or British Open as some people incorrectly call it will be a magnificent event, and to have helped the players and their caddies with distances via CaddyAid's GPS golf technology, well that is a huge compliment, as the players only seem to trust our product against the others in the market place. As the Managing Director, naturally, that gives me a massive boost, and only goes to support our significant sales of late".

 Also.......

CaddyAid, the Golf GPS arm of the DMC Group, have again be approached by the worlds leading golfers, requesting that CaddyAid is made available to both them and their caddies for the 2007 Open Championship.

Last year at Hoylake, CaddyAid was used to great effect by a host of players, and this year will be no different. The groundbreaking GPS golf product will again be provided to the worlds elite, competing over the famous Carnoustie links.

Already requests have come in from players within the ISM group, managed by Chubby Chandler, who represents players such as Ernie Els, Darren Clarke, David Howell, Lee Westwood, Paul McGinley to name a few. Chubby says of CaddyAid “When I walk onto a course now, I can see a low level flyover movie of the hole, then a colour photo of the hole showing me the distance to any blade of grass. An awesome product, and one which stands way ahead of its competition”. One of the favorites at Carnoustie is Darren Clarke, Billy Foster his Caddy says “Like many players, Darren wants to know the distance to every blade of grass on the course, CaddyAid lets me tell him how far it is from where we are to any point using the large colour screen. It really is that accurate”.

As for comps at golf clubs, it is a local ruling that allows or diss allows them. Having played in many comps both in Scotland and England, it has been allowed in them all so far.

Not sure what the difference is, between fully maping the course and printing out pictures of each hole and using the device is?

Does you comp allow stroke savers to be used? If so, once again, depending on the quality of your courses stroke saver, no difference.

Let me repeat - GPS is not allowed during the Open Championship.

I am sure a few caddies & players use them before the Open starts, but don't confuse this sales patter with GPS being used in the Open.

I agree, my understanding was that alot use them for practice rounds to help compile their note/distance charts to various point on the course.

That's what I thought??

That's correct. The article from the manufacturers is half suggesting they were used during the Open which is a bit sneeky.

Clever marketing perhaps...

If you ever go to practice days before a tournament - they use rangefinders quite a lot over GPS. I assume this is because they are more accurate as we know, but also because they give distances to any point on the course such as a mound or a flag which is harder with GPS.

But, whilst rangefinders are better for planning and making course notes - I'd imagine it's a bit of a pain to use them during a round so I guess that's why GPS has caught on much better for the amateur game.

If ever we saw the day when these devices were made legal for tournament play - I'd hope they used GPS, can you imagine watching Tiger look through binoculars on every shot - it'd be silly.

If I was ever to use GPS myself - I think I'd get the caddyaid one.

Current GPS would not satisfy tour pro's as it's not accurate enough for tournament play, The current sat tech being used at the momment is only accurate to 5mtrs which is the average length of a car,good enough for us hackers but not the Pro's. Thats why when a couple of you have them your readings vary by a couple of yrds.

Thats why the pro's like caadieaid as its more accurate as its actualy photo mapping and you can measure point to point as on google earth.

"no GPS use in tournament play"

That is also correct as I have pro caddied and you map the course in the practice rounds only.

Jonny you know you are going to have to get one.lol.

There is another device just out on the market which does exactly what the caddyaid does & tracks scores similar to the sureshot & it comes preloaded with 20,000 courses so you don't need to download or subscribe.

I'm looking for the product & will paste the link when I find it.

Found it. look here

Guys,

I use a system called Wegolf on my nokia 75 cost about £40 and you can do everything with it plus there's a trial period so you can try before you buy. There's a whole online interface that allows you plot your home courses, track shots etc.

http://wegolf.com/

 

I've also used Wegolf with some success. Again, it is a Google Earth based GPS, so is only as good as the person who plots the course. I have used it at about 6 courses now, and never found it to be more than 5 yards out, although normally it is accurate to 1 to 3 yds with reference to 150 markers etc. There is a two week trial, in which you can download/plot as many courses as you have time to, but you still use the courses after that, without paying!

I also believe Caddyaid have just bought out Caddyaidmobile, for GPS mobiles, which looks a better system, but will cost you about £9 a course.

I installed FreeCaddie onto my mobile (running win6.1) earlier this week, added a course to the database which took about 10 mins and then used it yesterday.  It worked great!....One of my playing partners had a Sky Caddie and we compared yardages a few times on the way round - the differences were minor, only a yard or two mostly upto a maxium of five yards on one approach.

Also as it was very windy yesterday my power-fade took me to onto some parallel fairways and some parts of the course I've never seen before!  The FreeCaddie sofware was great for these situations.

 Yet more technology 'pushing the envelope'.

a) why should you have an advantage (whether or not you can select and execute  the shot to said yardage).

b) Even if you do execute the shot, it's not been derived from your own judgement.   

c) why should you hold people up. I can't believe that using one makes it anythiing other than slowing the flow of play.

d) as John Pettit mentions: strolling down the fairway you know more or less what you've got left from the 150 yd marker (granted in Euope it's 150 mtrs but just add 15%)

e) What next, the radar putter from Caddyshack?

Yet more technology 'pushing the envelope'.

a) why should you have an advantage (whether or not you can select and execute  the shot to said yardage). so are you saying stroke savers should not be allowed also??

b) Even if you do execute the shot, it's not been derived from your own judgement. regardless of if you know the correct yardage you STILL have to play the shot, I would imagine having a 2 handicapper & 24 handicapper having the exact yardage would have different outcomes to the end result

c) why should you hold people up. I can't believe that using one makes it anythiing other than slowing the flow of play. you obviousley have never played with one or played with people who use them

d) as John Pettit mentions: strolling down the fairway you know more or less what you've got left from the 150 yd marker (granted in Euope it's 150 mtrs but just add 15%) what if your on a different fairway or not even on a fairway, how do you derive the yardage then??

e) What next, the radar putter from Caddyshack? do you know something we don't??

Thought this had been put to bed.

I have to say, even I think most of Patricks points are wrong.

But...John, you (and others) often justify any advantage with the oft-heard comment "you still have to play the shot". Would you therefore be open to a device that reads greens for you?

 John, you obviously feel strongly about this. I on the other hand feel that if you want to play a course then play it using your own skill and judgment. I can't say anymore than that really. I wouldn't say that I don't mind other people using them in competition because not all people can afford to use them. On a friendly level I find them a bit laughable.

I've used one Jonny P, it's called a caddy

Oooo its all kickin off again

Its kind of a novelty Item, I have used the in built buggy GPS before, and only really used it for measuring my drive (yes - bit vague)

I dont have a problem with people using them, but personally would prefer to use my own judgement.

I buy a course guide at every new course I play, use it that day, and then dont bother. I have a memory to tell me that it has bunkers etc.

but hey, maybe I'm old fashioned

A caddie can still only use his/her judgement Wayne.

it was tongue in cheek Jonny

Patrick

I on the other hand feel that if you want to play a course then play it using your own skill and judgment.

Try telling that to Tiger! Tell him he can't take his caddie out with next time?

I don't feel strongly I just get a bit annoyed when people 'slag' them off or make statments about them when they haven't used one so don't have the experience as those who have & therefore can make a judgment based on that.

jonny,

But...John, you (and others) often justify any advantage with the oft-heard comment "you still have to play the shot". Would you therefore be open to a device that reads greens for you?

I wouldn't say NO as I'm very open minded but I would have to use one to see if it was of any benefit.

I can imagine someone like yourself making a comment a few years back saying "would you be open to using a 480cc driver??"

 John, what has Tiger Woods got to do with it? Don't compare his game with ours.

 You do feel strongly about it and I'm not slagging it off, I'm making a constructive criticism about how golf is becoming easier. Not knowing the exact yardage is a pressure which if I was in matchplay would be miffed that my opponent (no matter his handicap) took that out of the equation.

 You can justify all you like but you're using an artificial aid.

There is no advantage , to play a shot you either use yardage or feel if it's yardage you  look at some "technoligy" , course planner or you pace it out ,which everyone is entitled to do. If your a feel player good on you and just because I know the yardage does'nt mean I dont feel the shot .

Jonny that comment is not to justify its a fact, I can't see what the hang up is with them( I know you havn't) it's not like you can't get the yardage from other means, unless you are on a course with no markers and they are about.

Patrick try 10% in Europe or you may over shoot the green.

 David, I'm sorry but there is an advantage, and a perceived advantage, why on earth do you think they sell so many.

 Feel has nothing to do with it

 Mind you, you're right about the 15%...where did I get that from? me an accountant too.

94 Posts in this topic, but when you remove all the bickering and arguing there is porbably only a dozen or so useful posts.

 Deciding on what GPS to get, seems like everyone goes on the same thing here, How Much Does it Cost? Does it Cost to Download Courses? when I always think there is another slightly more important question, How is the GPS Information obtained?

I know many of these companies are using Google Earth photos and take measurements off these photos and plotting them for you to download into your GPS. I know some companies employ a person to visit each course and walk every hole, plotting and measuring everything that needs to be done.

Now out of those two methods which one is likely to be more accurate? I think the one done by the guy walking the course. So I'd be looking to buy a device where the information for it is obtained that way. That narrows the list down rather quickly.

 

They sell so many because of poorly marked golf courses, and the cost of buying and keeping loads of course planners, especially if you play many courses and don't forget the marketing hype as with most golf equipment it won't make the slightest difference to the majority of players,but they have to have it. For instance even on my own course the green staff pull the 150 mkrs(they are steel tubes with a metal spike) whilst cutting the grass and then replace them where they think they were unfortunately, they have no concept of feel for distance.When you own one you soon realise some course just pick a yardage out of the air .As for advantage I have used one for a year now and my hcp is very much stagnant,you still have to put that ball in the hole to score. Try one then judge if it's that much of an advantage we will soon have you back in single figures.

.

Well said David, agree with much of that comment.

The number of times I've played courses with misplaced marker posts thanks to actions of greenstaff or have played courses with Planners quite clearly out-of-date when you get on the course is beyond a joke.

With the GPS I get none of this hassle, or the expense of having to buy planners.

I don't think GPS will make a great improvement to everyone's ability to play the game. It isn't going to help people hit the ball better or hole more putts, see your local pro still for that stuff. I think it'll help people make quicker and more sensible choices on the course and hopefully get them playing a round in a slighter faster time. 

Patrick

How can you make a constructive critique if you've never used one?? Why would you be miffed if your partner had one, would you feel the same way if he had a stroke saver?? would you feel the same if he had a remote controlled trolley? would you feel the same if he had oversize very easy to hit irons?? the list can go on......

I'm not trying to justify anything, I'll use one regardless of what you or anyone thinks, they have been approved by the R&A (via local ruling) so I'm within my rights.

What type of golf equipment do you use?? I bet at least £10 that one of your clubs utilises some sort of new technology???

& I also bet if we played together & a neutral course I would be ready to play my 2nd shot quicker than you would be (in reference to your point c earlier)

 

I've just written a very long and articulate reply but wasn't logged in and so it was lost.  Grrr.

To provide a rough synopsis - golf has never been played with artificial intelligence, or any machine that aids the decision making process.

You guys are really missing the point, well my point at least.

Comparing golf club technology to GPS is futile. To insinuate 'if your against one technology, your against them all' is borderline crazy Golf clubs are inanimate objects - inanimate objects have always been used - they are part of the game. Technology is used to make these objects, but you don't bring it to the course as well.

Artificial intelligence is as follows: the capacity of a computer to perform operations analogous to learning and decision making in humans.

GPS is artificial intelligence.

No player in history has ever relied on artificial intelligence or machines during a round of competitive golf. Old Tom didn't, nor did Sneed, Hagan, Hogan, Seve, or even Tiger Woods (who himself is very much against GPS during actual play - so at least we are in good company).

At the highest level, players need to know accurate distances, and understandably put a lot of time and effort into researching the course before they play it. But what goes on before a round of golf is utterly different to what goes on during a round of golf - the two are very different and I don't think anyone is anti research or against any tools that aid that research. But it';s research, it's not conductive to actually playing.

Many of us like golf as it is now, free from artificial intelligence aiding the decision making process. Sure, I am not stupid, I know it's effectively telling you the same thing as a small paper book, or a wooden post, but it's the way it obtains and relays that information which is hugely different. That is the issue most of us have.

The one thing I don't think many understand is that I (and I am sure I speak for some others) is that golf is a chance to get away from computers and electronic devices in general. They surround us all the time and they have become a massive part of human life.

I am not a purist by any means, but the allure of escaping all that crap, and just being a man in beautiful surroundings playing an ancient game is absolute bliss; and is one of the greatest attractions of this game. Golf has never been played with computers.

And I’ll happily stick my neck out and say I hope it always stays that way, the way it has done all throughout history.

 John, why would I need to use one? The benefit, sorry advantage, is clear to see.

 Look, I'm not into point scoring and if you refuse to believe it's an artificial aid then there's no point in prolonging this as you cannot be persuaded. I'm not a technophobe as my daughter bought me a square driver 420 for x'mas and I use that (up until then I played with a 1970's Wilson 1200 still use it, a Ping 1 iron and Taylor made blades, it's on my profile...but I'm not a purist) but that is beside the point.

 You continue to use one, it's your right and I'll continue to frown about it as that's mine.

Jonny,

All I'll say is times change. For every player you can get to agree with you I bet I can find a player who agrees with me.

It's not futile to compare golf club technology to GPS. They are both pieces of golf equipment that have been designed using the latest technology to aid decision making or helping to hit the golf ball. Regardless of if the technolgy is taken out on the course, that's like me saying "I'll use my GPS device to create my own strokesaver giving accurate yardage & marking spots every 15yrds & then leave the GPS at home & take the booklet out with me" the point is they have been created using technology.

Artificial Intelligence (as Wikipedia)- Artificial intelligence (AI) is the intelligence of machines and the branch of computer science which aims to create it. Major AI textbooks define the field as "the study and design of intelligent agents,"[1] where an intelligent agent is a system that perceives its environment and takes actions which maximize its chances of success.

The GPS does not take any action & does not learn from one shot to the other, it just displays a number!!

Sure, I am not stupid, I know it's effectively telling you the same thing as a small paper book, or a wooden post, but it's the way it obtains and relays that information which is hugely different. That is the issue most of us have. How do you think this information was obtained in the first place??.......GPS

The one thing I don't think many understand is that I (and I am sure I speak for some others) is that golf is a chance to get away from computers and electronic devices in general. They surround us all the time and they have become a massive part of human life. this is probably why we don't see eye to eye on this, I embrace technology, work & play with it

I love it Jonny , you know you are going to get one.LOL.

John - it's not the information I disagree with. I keep saying that.

It's how you obtain that info during a round.

It's artificial intelligence and computers being used during a round.

It's the precident it sets, the precident of using a computer to make a 'live' decision; not the yardage it gives. This is also why the R&A have reservations. They are concerned about wind meassuring devices which is the next natural progression and can alreay be added to gps units.

There was a day I was like you - open minded to everything to make golf 'better' but after 10 years or so, the more I play the simpler I like the game to be.

I embrace technology as much as anyone - never without my ipod, or my iphone - work on a computer 10 hours every day etc, use GPS in my car... But I also find pleasure in being without such items and are happy to have some disconnection once in a while.

We don't see eye to eye on this becasue we just view golf differently. We have different attitudes which is healthy. Although in the general sense of the word I am not one, compared to you I would be a purist - I certainly wouldn't be open to a green reading machine like you

I probably will Dave, haha.

 

please correct me if I'm wrong here,

GPS uses Satellite/s to triangulate your position on the earths surface. Now these are approx 36000Km above the earths surface, and the average accuracy of "good" GPS is +/- 2 yds.

Now the way I understand it, this does not to take into account several variables:-

Wind, temperature, elevation/topographics (in the close proximity), ground saturation levels, precipitation and whether you are on fairway or rough.

So, your GPS says 150 yds to the center of the green,

Its windy, cold and raining a bit. However, it rained quite heavily in the last 2 days and you are in a slight dip in the first cut of rough where water accumulates due to a high water table. the ball is 2 inches below your feet and the level of the green is 12 feet above you, and it looks like 140 yds.

Does GPS really help in your club selection, or are you gonna go with what you feel?

I go with feel, but if your £200 bit of Kit can tell you the right club.

Go for it.

 

 

I use it all the time. Par fours that I know I cannot reach in two become three shotters so it does not matter what club I take for the first two shots. the Third, as long as it is within 120 yds I know instinctively what to play.

Simon, remember that's if you can get a signal

I've just written a very long and articulate reply but wasn't logged in and so it was lost.  Grrr.

School boy error Jonny.....how many of us have done that??

Exactly right Simon ,you are going to go with what you feel I hit my 8 iron 150yrds I'm not going  to use that if  all the variables tell me differently. If I personally though of it as an artifical aid i would not use it but as it is only telling me the info i can obtain from other sources which are currently within the rules I'm fine with it. 

Just been reading up about golf history, and apparently they never even bothered with trundle wheels not that long ago, just used eye sight and feel - you'd think that was Old Tom Morris' era, but that was Hogan's era, even I am suprised by that!

Good illustration as to how golf has changed over the last 50 years - perhaps it's become more serious due to money so pros take more time?

 

 

You need to get out more Jonny......I suspect you might find a picture of Mr Hogan with a GPS in his hands.

 Dear GPS users, do you take your gps unit up to the podium when you've won a competition?

Only Joking.

I still use eyesight and feel, the only way I know how to play.

I played in the Corfu Amateur chanpionships in the eighties and I had a practice round with one of the American competitiors. Hiis name was Geret Kuiken and he played off 7.

We both drove off at the first and I was longer than him so I watched him play and was just about to play my shot when he bawled out, "John, you've got 64 and half yards to the pin". That stopped me in my tracks as this was the first time I had come across someone who measured how far it was to go, when I barely even looked at the yardage of a hole.

He proceeded to shout in my ear the yardage for every shot I had to play, but I let it go in one ear and out the other.

That was a great drive John, not even I need GPS for 64 and a half yrds.lol.

There was a time, David, when I could drive a ball like you. I know it's hard to imagine, but trust me.

John, why would I need to use one? The benefit, sorry advantage, is clear to see. I don't see how you can 100% say that if you have never used one, that's a very negative attitude

 Look, I'm not into point scoring and if you refuse to believe it's an artificial aid then there's no point in prolonging this as you cannot be persuaded. I'm not a technophobe as my daughter bought me a square driver 420 for x'mas and I use that (up until then I played with a 1970's Wilson 1200 still use it, a Ping 1 iron and Taylor made blades, it's on my profile...but I'm not a purist) but that is beside the point. So I assume that by using the technology advanced square driver it has improved / helped your game? But just by putting this in your hands didn't improve your accuracy or yardage, you still had to execute the correct shot

 You continue to use one, it's your right and I'll continue to frown about it as that's mine. As I said earlier, I'll use one regardless of anyone's opinion

Don't worry for tomorrow, John, I have arranged for a Sputnik to hover over the course so that you will have a good signal.

You need to get out more Jonny......I suspect you might find a picture of Mr Hogan with a GPS in his hands.

I know it was once 6 Lessons, not 5 Lessons. Lesson 1 was 'How to use a GPS', but it was pulled by the publishers.

He always was ahead of his time.

Jonny,

John - it's not the information I disagree with. I keep saying that.

It's how you obtain that info during a round. So your saying that just because I look at a screen instead of something written down it's wrong??

It's artificial intelligence and computers being used during a round. As in my previous post it's not AI it just displays a number, it doesn't make any club suggestion, it doesn't take into account any weather condition, read the link I posted to see what AI is.

It's the precident it sets, the precident of using a computer to make a 'live' decision; not the yardage it gives. This is also why the R&A have reservations. But by allowing it via a local rule they are condoning it.They are concerned about wind meassuring devices which is the next natural progression and can alreay be added to gps units. Can't really comment as it's not happening

There was a day I was like you - open minded to everything to make golf 'better' but after 10 years or so, the more I play the simpler I like the game to be. Your opinion & I respect that.

The one thing I don't think many understand is that I (and I am sure I speak for some others) is that golf is a chance to get away from computers and electronic devices in general. They surround us all the time and they have become a massive part of human life

I embrace technology as much as anyone - never without my ipod, or my iphone - work on a computer 10 hours every day etc, use GPS in my car... But I also find pleasure in being without such items and are happy to have some disconnection once in a while..
So it's just technology in golf you disagree with then?


We don't see eye to eye on this becasue we just view golf differently. We have different attitudes which is healthy. Although in the general sense of the word I am not one, compared to you I would be a purist - I certainly wouldn't be open to a green reading machine like you  Again I said I would look at it, if it existed, & make a judgment then. the glass is half full, not half empty

Nice one John,

I had packed my 30ft aerial just in case

I think this difference of opinion isn't helped by the R&A. There is no clear yes or no, and so the debate will continue until there is a clear outcome.

At the moment they are illegal on the PGA and European Tour, and illegal at every course in this country.

But, they have allowed that ruling to be overturned by a committiee if they wish to make a local rule. So we have some where it's illegal, and some where it isn't.

That's just adding to the debate and adding fuel to the fire.

If they banned them this would go away, and if they allowed them this would go away as there'd be no point in questioning it any more.

 

As every golfer will tell you, you gotta use the rules to your advantage

Whether you agree or not have your vote, currently the vote is 60% in favour of GPS devices.

http://www.golf-monthly.co.uk/polls.html

Jonny, you can only vote once (from the same computer!!)

As in my previous post it's not AI it just displays a number, it doesn't make any club suggestion, it doesn't take into account any weather condition, read the link I posted to see what AI is.

Wikipedia is edited by anyone and everyone - I can edit that page to be what I want - don't get your facts from there.

I posted the definition for you once already. Even so, it's still a computer and still a machine that gives you data - it's name is irrelevant.

So it's just technology in golf you disagree with then?

Technology - no. Electronic Machines that tell you exact distances - yes.


So your saying that just because I look at a screen instead of something written down it's wrong??

No - I've never said this. I have posted why quite a few times but your not grasping it - and I don't think you will no matter what I say or how I put it. I've never mentioned screens so your either being provocative or having trouble understanding due to other reasons.

I'd go for the former so I think my time on this thread is done in term of my input.

What was a debate on meassuring devices is fast approaching a tit for tat picking apart of terms and labels which is not very productive and quite tedious as we are all going around in circles.

Whether you need little electronic gadgets and gizmo's to enjoy, improve or speed up your game is your porogative - it certainly doesn't impact anyone else, so to me it's moot anyway.

The important thing is to enjoy your game and have fun along the way..

I find this argument a bit silly,i used to think like you Jonny but have changed my mind over the last few years,it's all progress as long as it dosn't go to far.

I played with a 16 handicap golfer two years ago and he was a big slicer of the ball with every single club until he had the driver in his hands (Callaway square) which he straight on almost every shot which i could't beleive,to me i thought "that's like cheating" but the enjoyment factor it gave him was fantastic,he knows like the rest of us he is not going to make a living from the game so what's the harm.

I will agree with you on one point,it is a big advantage using a gps on the course, well to me at least, i play to scratch and i am a bit short sited and although i have glasses i can not play with them on and i am certainly not going to touch my eyeballs to put contacts in LOL, all your getting is the yardage you still have to hit the shot.

It is with out doubt that GPS speeds my game up, I have played at the championship course at Carnoustie a few times and i have had to wait for my friend to play his shot and then come over to give me a yardage, if i used GPS at that time i would have been at the green before i even played my second but playing such a lovely course i am certainly not going to guess what yardage.

From 120 yards in it will never comes out the bag as i agree it's all down to feel.

The way i see it is GPS going to bring a 17 handicaper down 5 shots the answer no but is modern equipment the answer yes.

 

I posted the definition for you once already. Even so, it's still a computer and still a machine that gives you data - it's name is irrelevant.
 

you say you don't mention screens but you keep going on about computers which as far as I am aware all have screen, that is why I keep making the point.

I was replying to Patrick earlier but you felt the need to post again which is your right but please don't moan at me for then responding to your posts!?!?!?!

Would anyone like the theorise on why Tiger is 'against all measuring devices' We know he uses one pre round, and we know from John and Dave that they give no advantage, and they apparently speed up play so why would the worlds greatest player be against their use in competition?

I haven't used one for a whole round so I can think answer.

 

if he is against them why does he use one pre-round? perhaps he & steve know how to use them better then other caddies / players in preperation for the tournament??

 

I think TGiger has no desire to level the playing field, because the Pros are, in the main, pretty mechanical in their actions. They like the repetitive actions they use as they are reliable. These actions are well suited to those who know the exact yardages they carry each club under different conditions. They don't have the flair and determination that he seems to be able to display when under pressure and he does not wish them to have an aid that will help them more than it wil help him. He does not play golf that way at all.

Wow I've really missed a lot of great stuff since I posted earlier. Some of the stuff added to this thread since has been surreal.

The AI comments particular make me laugh. Do people really think these SkyCaddie things are going to take over Golf? Todays Golf GPS becomes tomorrows Skynet that wipes out mankind? Wow guys leave the Sci-Fi conventions and stick to the fairways or the rough if you slice it.

GPS is just another sign of the game moving with the times, staying modern and using the latest technology that is offered to it. You've all embraced new technology and welcomed it into other parts of your life, how else you reading this huh? So why not welcome a bit of it into a game thats dying on its arse because of two much ancient tradition.

if he is against them why does he use one pre-round?

Exactly. He uses one in practice rounds, but thinks they should stay banned for actual competition.

John's point of advantages to competitors doesn't wash as those with GPS claim no benefit to scores, only benefit to time. And remember Tiger and Steve have all the information in a yardage book that one gets from a GPS as well.

Could it be that he is favouring some traditions of the game? Fancy that, the greatest player in the world refusing to keep up with 'modern technology'.  bet he uses the internet too, and a mobile. I just don't get it

interesting point from another forum.

Have a Skycaddie SG5. Bought at Xmas for lots of reasons, measuring off shots hit with each club to get a more accurate idea of how far each goes was one good reason, for me and the kids. However, whereas it has made both the kids more aware of playing short of/carrying hazards, it's also made the yardage concept a bit rigid.  Something of which to be aware.

On a recent playing lesson, Magicplus2's was between clubs and getting a little...intense about it, in the way that only teenage boys can.  So on the next hole, the pro had him drop some balls at the 150yd marker and hit a 5 iron in, two clubs too much.  First attempt was woeful while the mental processes were adapting.  Next one, with a little coaching, finished pin high, 20 feet left.

Then, another ball was dropped, and the pro plucked his 8 iron from the bag with the advice, "It's not enough club, so you're going to have work out a way to draw it, put it back in your stance, whatever, to get it there". MP2's did all that and hit it, again pin high but drawn in 20 feet right of the hole (he's left handed). All of a sudden the lightbulb went on and the dependence on the yardage was maybe not broken, but certainly loosened up. 

So be aware that these devices can be habit forming; if you become over-reliant on them, it may affect your thinking and thus your game in the long run. I know that we'd all say "it's just a tool to help my decision-making", but...........................

 

I have one of the Snooper SatNavs which comes with free golf GPS

So I can use the SatNav on the road and then use it for distances on the golf course.

It has no gimmicks so all it will show you is the front, middle and back of the green, and the distance to any hazards.

You cannot record your scores and you have to work out how far your drive is by subtracting the starting distance from the finish distance.

Russ

Mmmm, I seem to be in agreeance with virtually every poster on this thread. I have never used a GPS, £250 odd quid would go on more important things than a GPS (lessons, clubs, green fees etc), but if I did use one, it would give me no more information than a course marker. Whether I could decide the right club/shot or not is down to me and my judgement. However, the fact that it is only telling me the information I could gain from the markers means that would just be an aid not a golf improvement devise. I would still need to make the same call as to what club / shot to use no matter how I got the yardage to the green. I love technology, but I also love golf because of its human against course/nature battle.

Not sure if I would ever get one, but I cannot see the harm in others using them.

I like the way you've put that Paul, thumbs up.

Right, decided I'm gonna buy a GPS. J.Flood is right, one can't evaluate one before they use one.

Even if I don't get convinced,  it will be handy for checking my yardages (never ever done before), and also checking the 150 yard markers of my course which are rumored to be dodgy. :D

Anyone used this? http://www.amazon.co.uk/Caddy-Lite-GAGPSCO-GPS-Silver/dp/B0016661YQ/ref=sr12?ie=
UTF8&s=sports&qid=1238446821&sr=8-2

It's a cheapo unit, but there's a good chance I'll only use it for a week or so.

PS: this doesn't mean I'm a convert

LOL, why are you guys using Tiger as a reason to not use GPS, the guys plays two practice rounds for most competitons, and Stevie will be marking on his stroke saver yardages from every possible mark he can find on the course. So I can imagine Tiger being a bit annoyed giving 10% off his winnings to someone just standing next to him reading off of a SkyCaddie, instead of knowing what shot/club he should be taking.

And how is it ever going to be a bad thing? Why are some people so resistant to change and technology? If most people are happy missing greens or finding hazards then crack on, give me something thats going to give me a possible chance of a bit more consistency by all means i'll give it a whack.

They aren't going to make you a better golfer, but the information they provide will most definately improve your course management, and you will soon learn what percentage of shots you are able to pull off, of what type of shots suit certain situations.

 I'll bow out of this as it's obviously stalemate, any points being made now have no or v little validity. Good luck to all you gps users, make sure you're legal before a comp. but don't get miffed if people take the piss when they see you using one.

Well I'm sorry to report that my new found air of openness has ended before it's really begun.

Took my neighbors GPS up the practice range this morning - and it told me that my 7 iron can go from 148 to 161 yards. A 13 yard differential.

That's bad enough, but what about the time of day - the ball will go further this afternoon - perhaps only by a yard or so, but that's a fair bit in terms of putting.

Then I started thinking about the ball I was using - I have some balls that go further than these Callaways - should I do a different chart for them? What about time of year - do I have a yardage sheet for every season, after all my ball rolls way more in the summer with hot air and hard fairways.

I realised having numbers in my hand will make me think in numbers when I look at the flag - cross referencing it's output with it's measurements the day before, like a database. That will only dilute any visualising and feeling I do to get yardages now.

I also relaised, with a yardage book, you get about 5-10 points of reference only. Statistically, of all the places you can drive a golf ball - the chances are high that it's not going to be exactly on one of these points, so the golfer nearly always has to calculate his/her yardage to some degree, on every shot, and on every hole. With GPS you never have to calculate, it's a roaming yardage from any point on the course.

So really a GPS isn't giving you the same thing as a yardage book or a stick in the ground marking 150 yards, unless your lucky enough to be next to that refference point.

I can see why this definative yardage is a comfort to some ways of thinking, but I visualise yardages as variables - ever changing things that you can't put a number on. But having this little (rather cool looking) GPS today, just made everything feel static.

I know it's my interpretation, but golf is all in the mind I'm not ready just yet to add an extra variable in there. I can hit plenty of greens my way, so I'm not going to rock the boat and change my method.

I am sure the debate will rage on until the R&A decide to allow their usage, not passing the buck to local committiee's. Maybe when this happens,opinions will change and defences will drop.

I did try, and this forum has helped me see why people like them

Jonny,

I applaud you for trying it & giving it a go. If it's not for you then fair do's but at least now you can see it from both views.

John.

It's been such an interesting debate to read, why not try and win one for free

 

http://www.golfshake.com/competitions/

PGA Measures Up For Golf Revolution

The Professional Golfers' Association (PGA) is set to become a trailblazer in tournament golf after rubber-stamping the use of electronic rangefinders in all its events including national championships.

The radical move by The Professional Golfers' Association could pave the way to a golfing revolution across the world as leading tours attempt to tackle the bugbear of slow play which frequently sees rounds stretch well past the five-and-a-half-hour mark.

Among the high profile PGA tournaments where rangefinders will be allowed are the Irish PGA Championship, won last year by defending Open champion Padraig Harrington, the Scottish PGA Championship and the Glenmuir PGA Professional Championship.

Approval for use of all distance measuring devices was agreed at the PGA's executive committee meeting with other leading golf bodies expected to monitor closely the success of the scheme.

The decision to give the green light to rangefinders followed a successful trial at last year's PGA Fourball Championship. More than 100 of the finalists carried them with 55 of 78 pros quizzed responding positively with many citing how their use sped up yardage calculations and the decision making process.

They have also been used with a wide degree of success on the PGA Europro Tour and PGA chief executive Sandy Jones welcomed the decision.

"I'm aware a number of traditionalists might well be appalled by this decision but the evidence suggests that using rangefinders really helps improve pace of play so it is difficult to see why such a decision should be detrimental to the game," he said.

"Slow play in professional and amateur golf has increasingly become an issue and we've taken the decision to embrace technology in a bid to resolve this problem and increase enjoyment of the game.

"The single biggest advantage of rangefinders is that you can take an accurate yardage from any point on the golf course - whether you're ideally placed in the middle of the fairway or stuck in trouble in the trees.

"As we see slow play is often caused by golfers straying into trouble and the caddie or player then having to pace off the yardages. With rangefinders it saves all the fiddling about and consultation of the yardage book, hence speeding up play."

If the PGA want to 'encourage' faster play, why don't they just impose penalties for slow play.

 

Paul,

I agree that could be a solution for the pro scene, although actually imposing them would be difficult.

For the amatuer scene I don't see how this would work, especially at club level so anything that speeds play should be encouraged.

The phrase "can of worms" springs to mind

Absolutely! Where will it all end? Laser guided balls and remote control clubs? You could play a whole round without leaving your computer guided hover buggy. Hell you could even play Augusta from the comfort of your armchair at home through t'internet! Lol.

Just been reading an old article from Golf Magazine where they interviewed Mr Hogan...funny that the yardage book was seen in the same way as GPS is today.

<a href="http://www.dow.com/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img.timeinc.net/golf/advertisers/dow/humanside/images/dowTopper
.gif" width="990" height="90" border="0" alt="Dow: The Human Side of Golf" class="dowToppe

GOLF Magazine: Today's Tour players seem to play more mechanically, especially in regard to judging distances. Every pro has a yardage book in his pocket.

HOGAN: I know it, and I think that's terrible. When I played, we never had those cards that told us the pin was 20 feet from the front edge and 15 feet from the left-hand bunker. Those things have taken away about 80 percent of the feel of playing golf. Heck, they give them the answer to the foot. They've taken the creativity out of professional golf.

Poor Ben must be turning in his grave ... just imagine what he would be saying about GPS if he were alive!

I am with Ben, the modern game is alll about technology, but even with all this at their disposal how many did we see through the greens at Augusta.

yes john and to think those greens are twice the size that we play on, well they looked it anyway

As I said before, having the information to hand is useless if you cant do anything with it. Phil knew exactly how far the pin was from the tee and yet he still put his ball in the drink.