I guess that many people will be renewing their membership in April.  I just wondered if anyone will be checking on the financial stability of their club before paying over their money as I presume if a club goes belly up then the members will effectively lose their money.  I'm not aware of any courses that have closed in the East Midlands yet but I would doubt that golf courses will be immune from the current financial crisis.

Also does anyone know if you are protected if you use your credit card to pay your membership?

I've not heard of any golf clubs going under but who's to say it won't happen!

It might be worth contacting your credit card provider and asking about paying your membership with it, and if it's covered in this situation.

Russ

My club allows us to pay our membership in 10 monthly installments. If it does go belly up, which is highly unlikey given the quality of the course even at this time of year, and the constantly growing number of contract holders, we would just cancel the direct debit. Might lose a months worth of money but not a whole year.

I pay for my golf subscription over twelve months, by direct debit, so if anything happens to the club I wouldn't lose too much money.

Russ

I cannot imagine you losing any money, Russ, after all Crown Golf is a very large group and even if some individual clubs are not showing a profit, I am quite sure that overall the group is doing OK.

Chris you are right paying by Direct Debit each month is one way round the problem but usually costs a bit more than paying upfront.

John, I am not sure that size is any guarantee of safety judging from some of the retail businesses that have gone belly up.  The other problem I was a bit worried about is that it is often impossible to tell these days how big a company is because business structures are so complicated.  Some golf courses may be profitable but may be linked to leisure companies which are not.  Still hopefully most of the long established courses won't be heavily in debted and will be able to ride out the recession.

John, I'm not worried, as you say Crown Golf is a large group so should be able to weather the storm.

Russ

Any business that is dependent on borrowing to keep itself afloat is not a sound business model.

My old club in Somerset was a private golf club with 600 members who each paid, when I first joined, the sum of £12 per annum. £7200 per annum plus a small income from Green fees. This would not be a large amount as Societies were not abundant in those days and very few golfers played golf under the pay and play syustem that is so rampant now.

The club expenditure was balanced against this income. A steward and his wife who lived in, paid a wage and allowed to keep the profits of any food they provided.

The greens staff comprised no more than the Head Greenkeeper and a couple of other labouring staff. The Pro was of course paid a small retainer, but gave lessons and sold all the equipment from his provided shop.

This system has worked for every private club in this country, none of which have gone bankrupt.

The new breed of course, corporate led was always going to be disaster IMO and we have all witnessed the constant barrage of advertising, offers and deals  to get people to play, all the time realising that the number of punters is not enough to keep these clubs running as they are top heavy with expensive managers and staff that are ot really interested in any of the punters as they are not members.

I have a private club just five hundred yards from my house and I really should have joined there, but the joining fee is a £1000 and the annual subscription is the same. It takes time at a new club to get to know people but where I am at the moment I can just turn up on the roll-up days and play with a group of up to thirty different players, plus we then make smaller groups to play the other Crown courses for nothing.

It all depends what one wants from the game, if it is to have a proper recognised handicap then a private club is really the only answer.

I am not overly worried, club made a healthy profit last year,and I expect more of the same this year when the accounts are sent out.

Cant wait for the wrist to recover to hit some balls again.

I read that La Manga is effectively bankrupt and has been given 12 months to turn it's fortunes round by the banks or it will be closed [source: todays golfer]. 

If a course as well known and regarded as that can get itself into such trouble, it shows that their business model was inherently flawed.  Perhaps if they reduced their green fees to a realistic level they would get more golfers on the course and make more money. 

I feel that we will see a big change in the way that Spain and Portugal conduct their tourist businesses during the coming year, Chris. They have had it so good for many years, taken the p**s with their over the top charges and are now going to pay the penalty.

One only has to look around at the amount of property for rent in these countries, most of it is forced to close down when they should be making money.

Emerging countries like Turkey now offering good golf and nice weather have taken away punters who would normally have gone to Spain or Portugal.

Agreed John.  Couple the fact that most golfers who travel to Spain and Portugal are British and the current exchange rate is about €1.06 to the £, it's now very expensive to spend a week over there playing (unless you booked last year like Santo's lot). 

 I'm not renewing my membership this year due to the lack of promised investment to our course, Calverley in Leeds. They've had a third loop of nine on the go for five years with only two of the nine holes up and running, to compensate for two of the better holes from the original 18 that they used for landfill which are more often closed than open due to poor drainage. In addition they are thinking of taking out the practice areaa which is 400yds by 150yds to put in a driving range. Last weekend they had 5 temp greeens.... five out of 16! (and I hate using exclamation marks). Need I say more?

Will you be joining elsewhere Patrick?

I'll have a look around in november when mine is up.

They are building a 2nd course at my club but we dont think members will have access to both.

If so - i will go elsewhere

**it's now very expensive to spend a week over there playing (unless you booked last year like Santo's lot).  **

Chris,

 In fairness although the cost for this Feb trip booked in May last year is £309, the tour company have revised their prices due to the strong euro and it is now £360, still a very good price for what your getting I have to say.

Where we will notice the extra cost will be in purchasing food/drinks, last year if we paid 3.50 euro for a pint it was working out at around £2:70 now it will be £3:40 and food like Steak on a Stone at 8.50 euro was last year £6:60 it will be now £8:10.

I have never spent more than 375 Euros for the whole week which at last years rate was £290, if i take the same amount it will have cost me £360 so therein lies the problem.

this Feb trip booked in May last year is £309, the tour company have revised their prices

Surely when when booked Wayne you had a confirmation stating the price in £sterling?  In that case you have a binding contract agreed by both parties and they cannot change the price without your prior agreement unless there is something in the small print that links the cost to the € exchange rate.  

I do understand what you are saying about 'pocket money' and incremental expenditure though. 

Wayne, I still can't believe how economical you have made this trip, spoke with some friends off to Villamora in May 4 rounds ,hotel and flights a tad under £800.00. That's not a break anymore it's become a luxury item.

Dave if I add my flight it comes in at a total of £452, geographically it will be cheaper depending on where you fly from.

Last year i could have got a flight from Gatwick with clubs for a total of £89 !!!!!! making the holiday £398.

Chris the reason I made the comment on price revision is because if you want to book it NOW, it will cost you £360. We are not paying anymore, but clearly it will be a big jump for next year if the euro stays as it currently is.

Back on the subject of the Memberships at UK Courses, I've been quite suprised at my club by the number of requests I've had in December and so far this year for Distance Memberships. Anyone living over 49 miles from the club can purchase a years Membership for £49. I've seen a lot of people taking this offer up and sending their handicap records to install us as their home clubs. Obviously I'd assume these people are at the courses that charge £500+ a year membership and they obviously feel its not affordable for them this year or value for money.

£49 off say a £500 a year subscription would still leave them then £451 for green fees to use on other courses over the year.

Chris what do you mean by distance membership, is it the same as country membership? If so i was of the understanding to become a county member you had to be a member of another club,has this changed?

I assume our Distance Membership means the same as what other clubs call Country Membership. Basically its a reduced rate fee for people who live a certain distance or more from the club. We don't have any requirements for this membership other then they have to live over 49 miles away. They do not need to be members of other clubs. If they wish we can be their home club for handicap purposes. Basically its another way for us to offer a proper golf club membership and its benefits to a wider field.

We even have members overseas who have used us to obtain Memberships which then allow them to play courses in their home countries that they couldn't without the correct licences or paperwork etc. I know we get a lot of German and Dutch applications due to them having strict rules on Golf, requiring a licence before they can play etc.

Chris,

How do you get around people using 'friends' addresses as their home postal code to obtain this membership??

John.

You don't want too many members at £49 a year otherwsie your club is going to go down hill fast - even a small club can't make that fee sustainable.

£49 ..... My god, thats cheap.

But as has been asked before - how would you stop me using a family members address?

Any limits on the amount or times they can play?

John - Distance Members would need to provide ID when joining with their Postal Address Shown, so the usual things like utility bill statements, bank statements or a copy of a driving license (both parts) would be acceptable.

The £49 only covers the the Basic Membership Fee. As with all members at the club Green Fees are still required when you come and pay. So everyone takes out a Membership then when they play they pay a Member's Green Fee. Again another cost saving for Golfers as you only really pay then when you play.

So if someone was lucky enough to get through the system on a loophole and join as a Distance member, when in fact they live quite local. If they play quite regularly they'll still end up paying when they play so we're not going to lose a great deal.

We have no restrictions on how many or how few times a Distance Member has to play. Like I said with our overseas members many will never ever step foot on the course.

How much is a members Green Fee and do you have non members rates?

Members Green Fees in the Winter (January to April) are £2.50 a Day and in Summer (May to December) £3 a day.

Visitors pay £9 a round in the week and £12 at weekends. They don't receive any discounts for playing with Members nor do they receive a reduction if only playing 9 Holes.

Chris,

But what if I took someone else's utility bill & a paper copy of their licence. Surely that would get me through the loophole?? For £49 a year & then £2.50 a day to play I'd be more than happy to be called a different name while at the club!!

John.

When we ask for a Driver License that includes the Photo Part as well John. So unless you have someone elses name and address on that with your mug shot, you'll struggle to get through the security check.

If someone did go to the lengths to somehow get round the system at the end of the day they've paid to be a member and they are paying everytime they play golf. So its not like someone trying to play without paying, someone sneaking onto the course without a ticket. The person would be bringing funds into the club.

Patrick,  I am a member of Horsforth GC and we pay by 12 monthly installments. I can see where you are coming from, the last two days we have had all 18 on Temps, but that is better than been closed.

I will be renewing in march as always ( i need golf). i too have a pay and play membership . £75  then £7 a round. very happy with that.

Not sure why john P insists that only private member courses are the only option for Handicaps.

I think the move towards more corporate courses has opened up a lot of positives for golf. cheaper more accessible courses. the reduction in snobbery by middle aged middle management men who actually wish they could play well but can't.

I think you musst have had a bad experience with a course and it puts you off all of them

i don't have £1000 a year for fees, i do however play a reasonably nice course (2 in summer) at a good price and no silly restictions on who can play

Steven, the reason I say that private clubs are the best for handicaps is that they have many more competitions that the pay and play ones and are conducted strictly to the rules of golf.

My club is a part of Crown Golf which has I believe about thirty clubs under its umbrella. It is not a golf club in the real sense of the word, it is a pay and play with members. Competitons are only on average 1 a month and this is not a good basis to get a genuine handicap. In fact my club handicap is 16.5 and I am quite sure that if I played off that in any Golfshake  competition then I would be open to a lot of ribald remarks.

Our roll-ups on Mondays and Thursdays even though played from the back tees and under the rules of golf are not accepted by the club for handicap purposes as they do not organise them.

So we have our own handicap system in the roll-ups and it is a harsh one. If you win then you get cut, even if you score 35 points. If someone scores 44 points then that is four points off their handicap. My roll-up handicap is 13. So I have three handicaps and only my club handicap is the official recognised one. but I would hate o be called a cheat by playing off it when I have been scoring better than it.

Perhaps now with this long lay off that I am having I should come back at my club handicap. What do you reckon?

I am quite sure you will find that the standard of golf at any private members club is far higher than anywhere else. The reason being that they do not let members join until they are of a suitable standard. My club ion Somerset had 40 playier in single figures.

I completely disagree about your view on snobbery. I was a truck driver all my working life and I found that those that were born into money were charming people and the only snobs come from new money.

I've played Longhirst twice Steven, Infact the 2nd on the Dawson course was my 1st ever Birdie!

My club Has weekly competitions in the summer, and I'm not sure that the handicap system is fair as I have only played to my H/C once and that was in much shortened conditions, Golfshake has the same scores as my club and is higher by 3 shots.

John my view on snobbery was not general, it was about golf clubs and their own self importance. My point come from clubs such as one in lancashire where my father was going to join, where thay charge for application of membership, then joing then green fees and decide who they feel is suitable.

who really cares about single figure handicaps, just because you are a 18+ does it make you a bad person or less worthy of membership?  Do football pitches only allow you to play 5 a side if you can run 10 miles or score a free kick Beckham style.

You must realise that golf needed a change of focus and image in order to survive.  If all clubs don't let you join until you are of a good standard, where do you play?

We are on completely different wavelengths, Steven and that is no doubt due to the great age difference between us.

Golf did not need a change of focus to survive, it hasgot along nicely for over 100 years without any change.

Did you realise that there have been 850 new courses built in the last twenty years, initially for the new money I have referred to. Many going bust after the intial interest due to exhorbitant and high fees. The vast increase in those playing with a lower standard overall as they now allow the ridiculous handicaps of 28 meant that those private clubs who did no wish to be invaded by these new golfers, put up their green fees, more in the way of trying to keep them away.

To answer your last question, until I could play to an acceptable standard I had to play on Municipal courses. Now all we see are socities, some of which just do not have a clue as to what is expected from them.

To rest my case, just the length of time it takes to get round a course these days is a joke.

I used to play in 36 hole competitions with 90 players in the field in one day. That is now impossible.

Stand on any first tee and watch what happens. All yacking, no one taking the initiative to get aball onto a tee. When they finally do, it is twenty waggles and then finally the hit. Multiply this by four and you get the answer. Chaos. Finally they are off and the nwe see that they wwalk at the speed of a geriatric and have no consideration whatsoever for those who are going to be behind them.

If you think this progress Steven then you are welcome to it. I am just glad that I enjoyed the wonderful years in this game, because now it has gone to pot.

John , as much as it pains me to agree with you (kidding) i fully agree on the time issue.

Why do 4 balls always play in order? why not let the weaker golfers gop 1st as they will generally hit it less distance or not straight, so why not get them walking sooner rather than later.

Ask anyone who plays with me, David L or Kevin H for example and they will both tell you that I am always the first on the tee on every hole, simply because I like to get on with it and also for the fact that I don't hit it very far.

It's just the right way to play it.

I know its  nice to win a hole and have "the honour" but practically it's much better to just get on with it.

Going back a bit , i think more courses could do with better rules boards that are displayed to players so they know before they play what is what.  especially really big signs saying PLEASE REPAIR PITCH MARKS

"Golfshake has the same scores as my club and is higher by 3 shots."

Is that true Mr Falcus?  I think someone will be playing off 20.7 at the Belfry then.......

It is true yeah - I got ripped by my Club for my H/C - Never played anywhere near it in full course conditions. 3 cards - 96, 105, 114 (par of 70) = 20/21 H/C??? I dont think so.

No backing out.  You'll play to your club handicap as I would expect anyone else to. 

Who Said anything about backing out?

I fully expected to play to it anyway, I had manually adjusted my Golfshake one to match my club one but was asked to reset it otherwise they'd be the same anyway.

Your Club HCP will go on CSS (Competition Scratch Score) and not SSS (Standard Scratch Score).

I was a member at Filey GC for several years and in one season I posted 8 (eight) scores of Nett 68 to a SSS 69 and on each occaision the CSS was either 68 or 67.

Chris,

Make sure that Mr Falcus' handicap doesn't rapidly increase by March. Everyone should play off their club handicap unless that it is higher than the golfshake one.

John.

My club handicap is 16.5 John and with the layoff I should have a couple of courtesy shots given to me as well as being allowed to play off the reds to compensate for my poor driving. I am expecting you to support me in this.

John,

You can play off whatever you feel is necessary I would never question your decision.

John.

Very nice of you, John, I will let you win the chocolate again for your kindness.

Surely it's my turn for the chocs! Or bollo i just rememeber i'm trying to lose weight.

No chocolate for you, Dave, strict regime to reduce the weight is essential.

 There has been a lot of traffic since my post re jacking in my current club: I shall miss some of the lads @ Calverley and the practice area however it does give you the freedom to toby around and play other good courses. There are some great deals out there if you're cheeky enough to ask. Binglet St. Ives (was part of the PGA tour in the 70's)is one of my favourites which I often play with green fees at £18 per day in winter and £32 in summer. However I do need a base to feed my practice addiction and am thinking of joining Moor Alleron in Leeds with my regular playing partner. It's twenty seven holes, much more callenging holes than Calverley and some of the best (if rather large) greens I've played on. I tend to play a 6- 10 times a year and was thinking of either a twilight membership  @ £500(after 4 pm) or winter membership £300 (after 10pm) to start with. Both options allow full use of facilities including the great practice area they have. Both options represent great value. The only downside is a 30 minute drive as opposed to my current 10 minute shuttle.

 This would not have been possible 10 yrs ago but things as they are clubs, even moderately prestigious clubs are being forced to drop their class pretentions, along with their joining fee for the money.

 My brother in law is currently joining Cobble Hall in Leeds for £900, again no joining fee.