Golf forum

I recently played at Tewkesbury Park Par 73 SSS 70.

I have found numerous definitions of standard scratch online, one of these below.

This is a fixed number agreed by the Club with the ruling bodies. This is the score it would be expected a scratch golfer would go round in. This can differ from the course par by anything up to +3 to -3 of the course par.

I play off 12 and went round in 83 (10 overpar in my book) thinking I may come down by 0.4 but i didn't move as its obviously using the SSS and therefore it must calculate my round as 13 over (no move)

As I am not a scratch golfer, why doesn't golfshake use the Par score?

Confused!

Because no one uses just par to computer handicaps.  In fact, if you were using the US system of slope and rating, your handicap would be higher than that of using the SSS system over here.

I keep a handicap in the USA and on golfshake, and my US handicap using the exact same cards would be 18. 

SSS is calculated using a formula that puts course length and difficulty into equation to come up with the rating.

Depsite your course being Par 73, its probably not all that long probably has an extra Par 5 on it. Therefore the rating will be much lower.

6500 yds should not be a SSS 70 in my opinion. I have played this course many years ago in a Pro-Am with Brian Huggett and it is no pushover.

I agree with you Rob, par is what we should play to, after all that is what the Pros do.

The SSS idea is a very good one but isn't as accurate as it should be.

If handicap is just on par it can mean going to other courses and finding them incredibly hard /easy. Your handicap should be comparible to other players from other courses not just your own.

I hit a 4 over par this year, but as the course sss was 69 it was much more realistic at 7 over when compared to SSS. My own course which is sss 72 to match the par would be much harder to score 4 over par on!

The issue with pros is not really relevant as they don't play handicaps, some might be plus 3 or plus5 they are pros and all count as scratch.

Steven, I had this circular argument with J P, no so long a go. I agree with you that all courses are different, some being easier than others.

Having the SSS system does not make any difference to your handicap when you go and play another club, it still stays the same, so if you are playing a match against a member of a much more difficult course then you are at an disadvantage, as his handicap will be based on that course whereas yours is based on an easier course. Because of this your handicap is not comparable to the player from the harder course. If you are both of the same handicap then he would be the better player.

Handicaps are never re-adjusted to take the SSS into consideration for this discrepancy, so the SSS is a total waste of time.

Pros are all scratch, only amateurs can attain + handicaps.

JP, that's why the US system is so much better IMHO.  My course handicap can actually change up or down depending upon the course rating.  So playing Whistling Straights or Bethpage Black with a rating of 145 and slope of 75 or so would actually give me a massive course handicap adjustment. 

So if I go onto a course that is harder, my adjusted handicap for THAT course actually changes up or down on an easier course with a lower rating. 

If I scored a 110 on Whistling Straigts, my handicap would probably go down whereas if I shot a 110 on a very easy course with a slope/rating of 68/118, my handicap would go up.

I don't know if the SSS system just uses the best 10 of most recent 20 rounds, but that's how the HC is based in the USA.  It's a continuous rolling best 10 of 20 scores.   

"Handicaps are never re-adjusted to take the SSS into consideration for this discrepancy, so the SSS is a total waste of time."

I understand that SSS is used to compare all the courses so that your handicap on your own course is relevant for use on other courses, so a handicap earned on a course with an SSS of 72 is still relevant when you play a course with an SSS of 68.

That would mean that if you have a 10 handicap (from sss 72) and you play against a player with a 10 handicap whose course is SSS 69 as their handicap is based on SSS not the easier par score surely you should be even?

He might need to shoot 7 over to be  10 handicapper you shoot 10 over to be a 10 handicap on your own course!

Surely this means that 10 handicap based on SSS is the same whatever your course?

The US system is better in my opinion as it takes into account more general play - in the UK you can play golf twice a week for 20 years, but unless you enter tournaments you can't have a handicap.

Thanks JP ,

thought i was going mad!

My USGA Handicap is 22.1, my golfshake HC is 15.4.  And the way I play golf, I can assure you that my USGA handicap is exactly what my score would be on a good day.  And here I thought I was getting better, but the SSS system has misled me into false hope. 

In practice John you are correct as playing to your handicap on a harder course is always tougher, but in theory they are as good as each other.  The easy way to explain is it is to forget about the par and just look at the the SSS. 

When a 10 handicapper from an SSS 70 course goes to an SSS 67 course, he would expect to shoot 77 (5 over gross) if playing to his handicap.  If a 10 handicapper from an SSS 67 course goes to an SSS 70 course, he would expect to shoot 80 (8 over gross) if playing to his handicap.  This is why SSS is used as it transferable between courses.  If par was used, then the player from the tougher course would effectively have a 3 shot advantage when going to the easier course.  SSS, in theory, takes this into account in an attempt to make a 10 handicap the same no matter what the course.  As long as the SSS is correct.....

When calculating handicaps, the par for the course is completly irrelevant; it's the SSS that matters. 

Good explanation chris ,

 all based on par of 72 i assume, makes very good sense to me.

Now who is a 14 handicap at an easy course and wants a game?? ;0)

They are not equal at all.

Additionally I'd like to comment that SSS is based around a system of length per shot to calculate the number of strokes you should take for the hole:

Drive - up to 250 yards

Fairway shots - up to 225 yards

Putts - 2 per hole

Therefore holes are calculated as follows:

3 strokes - up to 250 yards

4 strokes - up to 475 yards

5 strokes - up to 700 yards

Most Par 72, SSS 72 courses fit within these boundaries, where PAR 72 courses have a lower SSS it is ususally because there are par 5 holes under 475 yards and or par 4 holes under 250 yards. To the lower handicap these holes are generally reachable in less shots than the par dictates therefore SSS is lower to enable roughly comparable scoring between courses of differing difficulty

Mike, the distances you quoted for the par of a hole has been in existence from when I first started playing. You are wrong that a par 4 could be under 250 yds as that is the criteria for a par 3.

As 2 putts are allowed on every green then the par is determined in how many shots it takes to reach the greens.

The new courses have made par fives so long that the majority of players just do not reach the green in three but add a lot of distance to the overall length of the course. I do not think this is the way that golf should have gone, as it has changed the play from accuracy to sheer power.

250 yards is a long way and I do not come across players who can drive this length. They may think they do but in reality they don't, with just a few exceptions.

The SSS system does nothing to correct the degree of difficulty between the courses, as no provision is made in the regulations for ones handicap to change when one arrives at a harder or easier course, in comparison to their own.

Also lets not forget that SSS isn't based on course Difficulty. There isn't such a thing as a More Difficult Course or an Easier Course based on SSS. The SSS is calculated by the playing length of the course with only a possible shot adjustment up or down for actual difficulty or conditions. Thats where the CONGU and EGU system falls down compared to the USGA system.

Take a look at the two courses I play frequently. One a 4500 yard Par 66 SSS 63 course and another near 7000 Par 72 SSS 73 course. Which one do you think I find the hardest? No its not the SSS 73. I actually find the 4500 yard SSS 63 course harder to play round and play to handicap round them the 7000 yard SSS 73 course. Hence the reason why I think we have so few Cat 1 or 2 Golfers at the Club as its so hard to play to Handicap never mind shooting below 63 to get a reduction.  

Also to JP's comment about the US system and the UK system. I'm confused. Any Golfer in the UK can get a handicap, regardless of how much Golf he or she plays. The problem I find with your statement is its quite the opposite. A guy can get a handicap, play twice a week for 20 years, not play in competitions and still have that handicap. That is wrong. I'm sorry but anybody playing for that length of time and playing with that frequency should not have the handicap they were initially awarded years earlier.

The EGU & Congu need to implement stronger guidelines on Handicaps, and ensure people have to submit a required number of cards each year, to maintain their handicaps. Those that don't should lose their handicaps. Those people who don't play in competitions, don't require a handicap so they should be scrubbed. Certainly in my Professional Position if I could erase all the members handicaps who haven't submitted a card in the last x years or those who have no intention of submitting a card, it'd make my admin a lot easier.

Then again from the reports I've read this week that the EGU is going to bring in a Central Handicap Database, this could mean I won't have to do the admin anymore as they'll control the handicaps of all the Golfers in England. 

Chris, at my club you have to enter a minimum of 3 events a year to have and keep a handicap. This is becoming common place around many clubs in the UK.

No competition = no handicap.

Yes anyone can get an 'initial' handicap; but what do the guys who just want to play social golf do when asked "what's your handicap?" They get a handicap by submitting the three cards but have no way of maintaining it - hence no competition = no proper handicap.

And what about players who are not members of a club? (I was a nomad golfer for 10 years) They are buggered even more by CONGU & the EGU.

Your initial handicap is pointless unless you can adjust it over the years and you can only do that in this country by playing competitively.

Also, for the record SSS isn't just down to course length - it also factors in playing difficulty.  SSS is a measure of difficulty - so how could it not factor in difficulty?

If you interested, the ten obstacle factors that determine the playing difficulty of a golf course (when figuring SSS) are:

Topography, Fairway, Green Target, Recoverability and Rough, Bunkers, Out of Bounds/Extreme Rough, Water Hazards, Trees, Green Surface and Psychological.
 

 

JP this statement:

"Chris, at my club you have to enter a minimum of 3 events a year to have and keep a handicap. This is becoming common place around many clubs in the UK.

No competition = no handicap."

It is against the rules of CONGU and the EGU at present. Only the Scottish Golf Union allows handicaps to become suspended or lapsed if a Golfer fails to provide evidence of their handicap during the Handicap Review Year. If your club or other clubs are suspending handicaps or removing handicaps they are breaking the rules. I don't disagree with them, but you're not allowed to do that yet. A Club doing that could be in serious trouble and risks having its EGU affiliation suspended or removed.

If you don't play competitions you can still adjust your handicap by submitting 'Supplementary Scores' all clubs have to offer this service. The Problem I see is that Golfers just don't want to do it. They prefer to play in their little spin-up comps always playing off their ridiculous 20+ Handicap they've had from day dot. The Supplementary Card system does work very well from what I've seen. Making people state their intentions to do a card before they play and whether the score is good or bad it goes on their record its far better then the abused General Play system, which if we're honest only saw people put their 'Good' cards in.

Your statement of SSS calculation is also only a recent change and only applies to courses that have been rated within the last few years. Congu and EGU again borrowed some aspects of the USGA system to try and make the SSS calculation have some relation to how the course plays. For many of us though our courses we rated long before this change so the SSS are based only on the playing length. Thats why the Congu and EGU have sent out requests that within the next 5 years all affiliated clubs are re-measured and re-rated to include the new allowances for playing difficulty.

I know quite a lot about this subject as its my job and what I'm currently doing at my club. We're altering the course to then have it re-measured and re-rated to hopefully try and shift this silly SSS of 63 to nearer the Par for the course. We're adding Hazards, narrowing fairways, extending holes, to make the SSS Calculation Higher. 

Nice find Chris - I'll mention that if my handicap lapses

They told me it would lapse if I didn't enter 3 comps in any given year. Considering as a new member they have made no effort to show me how to even enter competitions etc - or given the fact that it seems a rather unfreindly club (never been asked to join up with anyone when playing as a singleton) I doubt I'll get 3 comps in.

SSS 63 is very low - what par are you guys on?

Our SSS of 63 comes from the fact we are a Par 66 Course of only 4827 yards in length. At the time we were rated and affiliated to the EGU back in 1996 I think it was, we were judged purely on the length and par for the course, also the course was nowhere near as mature as it is now so if any difficulty calculations were considered it'd be nothing like it would be today.

Thats why over the last 18 Months we have been making some changes to the course. Adding some length in places where we can and in places we can't extend we've added hazards, tightened fairways, grown rough and made the holes tougher.

For a Par 66 of our length its quite a tough setup. Accuracy of the tee is of most importance as missing fairways by so much as a foot will leave you completely snookered by leylandi trees which cover the course in the rough. Also we don't have no first or second cuts to the rough, its just all one length, so again just being off the fairway you might as well be 30 yards off it as its just as penal.

Hopefully next year when we are re-rated the SSS will go up to something hopefully around 65 or 66.

To me, the problem with short courses is that if you have a good day's driving your going to have a good score. Where as on a normal course you need to be driving well, plus hitting your approach shots and have your short game solid too.

For example - I played a course yesterday for the first time who had a 250 yard par 4. I said to my mate that so long as I hit a fairly straight drive I'd be down in 3 no worries.

I hit it slightly right and skinny (not a great drive), but all that was left was a chip and run into a small green. That rolled up for a tap-in birdie 3. It's not very satisfactory doing that.

The same thing happened on an equally short par 5 - driver to the middle of a fairway left me only a 6 iron into the green for a long eagle putt and a guaranteed birdie.

I'm not a massive hitter, but even as an average guy these 250-300 yard par 4's can be as easy as pie so I see the issue with SSS and length to some degree.

J P a 250  yard hole shopuld be a par 3 in the first place, par 5's have to be 475 yards and over and if you can hit a drive and six iron to that length of hole then you really are a long hitter.

May I suggest you pop into London and play Wimbledon Common Golf club. 5480 yards with five par threes, three of which range from 229 - 243, all narrow tree lined. One par five which you will not hit for two as their are obstacles to prevent this, yes, there are three/four short par fours but thay are all tight and two great par fours that are very rarely hit in regulation figures.

I was a member for four years and the very first round I shot to par of 68 and thought that this was an easy course so I would join it. My game became worse and worse as the course gradually closed in on me until in the end I was totally paranoid. Like Chris's course the SSS was 66 but on occasions with the higher handicaps producing good scores the SSS would move down even further, trying to play off 4 handicap there was a nightmare, I can assure you.

Our course doesn't really suffer that problem JP, due to the shape of the holes and as I've mentioned the tightness of the fairways with total penalty if you miss them, its not a course where anyone really hits drivers or fairway woods off tees. You're forced to play Irons off tees to try and maintain accuracy needed to give yourself a chance of reaching greens in regulation. Therefore the course plays much the same as most courses as your second shots are comparable to the other bigger courses because you've not got distance off the tee.

Sure some people walk onto the course thinking its short and by hitting driver on all the Par 4s they'll breeze it. However after they have been stuck behind or in yet another of the 40 foot high leylandi which are getting quite wide as well now, they realise drivers are not the play.

Despite being Par 66 and being short it was only in the previous 18 months that someone set the course record of 66! And he was a +1 Handicap Golfer and if thats the best score he's ever shot on the course what chances do the teen handicappers like myself have?

I see what you mean (took a look at googlemaps).

Unfortunatly a lot of courses (long and short) haven't been designed with such thought and are just dead straight holes

Here is an aerial photo of my course, so you can see what the trees are like you have to play around these days:

John - I am still keen for a game for sure. I am perhaps looking to be avaliable next week sometime.

I'll email when I know for sure.

My game is poor at the moment - never been so inconsistent in my life!