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Provisional Ball

Posted by: user333074 | Thu 5th Apr 2012 13:14 | Last Reply

I am sure most people will know the answer to this, and will be quick enough to let me know that I should as well, however, here goes ..........

Player A hits a drive off the tee. It flies around 200 yards and lands in some very long grass. He suspects it could be lost and therefore proceeds to hit a provisional ball which runs 50 yards down the fairway.

What should happen next ?......... Should he look for his first ball before declaring it lost and returning to his provisional, or can he take his next shot with the provisional to take him further up the fairway and then look for his first ball?

If he went for option 2, ( ie playing his provisional ), and then found his first ball, can he play it or must he continue with his provisional?

re: Provisional Ball
user106712
Reply : Thu 5th Apr 2012 14:47

If you hit your second shot with your provisional after you pass the point where you lost your first ball then you must continue with your provisional and declare your first ball lost. however if you hit your provisional 50 yards you can carry on hitting it as many times as it takes until it passes the place where you lost your first ball, then you can go look for your first ball and if you find it you will then be playing your second shot with your first ball.

re: Provisional Ball
user20126 [FORUM MODERATOR]
Reply : Thu 5th Apr 2012 14:54

As Adrian says.

You can play your provisional ball as many times as you want, provided you haven't hit the ball at a point on the golf course that is further up the hole than your original golf ball.

So in the example you gave you would hit your provisional ball again.  Once you think it has passed the point where your original ball is then you look for your original ball.

If you find the original golf ball you must continue to play that ball, no matter what the lie is like.  You cannot declare it lost once you have found it.  You don't have to look for it if it's gone into some really bad stuff.

If you cannot find your original ball (or don't bother looking for it) then continue with your provisional ball.  The moment you hit your provisional ball past the point where you lost your original ball then the provisional ball becomes the ball in play.

Hope you can decipher all that! 

Russ

re: Provisional Ball
user8399
Reply : Mon 9th Apr 2012 17:51

Russ says: "The moment you hit your provisional ball past the point where you lost your original ball then the provisional ball becomes the ball in play."

Just to make sure you understand that he means that when you play a stroke with your provisional ball having passed the point where you assume your original ball came to rest it becomes the ball in play. So, if your provisional ball is a few yards short of where you think the first ball came to rest so you hit an "Oosthuizen" into the hole on a par-5 for a gross birdie 4, then your first ball is found in an unplayable lie, tough luck, that first ball is still the one in play. If the Oosty was from a point a few yards ahead of the first ball, you've got a birdie and a golf story for life!

I played in Austria with a guy who thought he had put his first shot on a par-3 OOB, played a provisional, it went in the hole for his first-ever "hole-in-one" then he found his first ball two inches in bounds up against the wrong side of a tree! To his credit, he still got a 4.

And we both got a story!

re: Provisional Ball
user16106
Reply : Mon 9th Apr 2012 20:13

Paul, You must declare on the tee weather you are playing a provisional ball or 3 off the tee. If nothing is declared it is assumed that you have played 3 off the tee and will be playing your 4th shot with ball #2.

Dave CAC handed Geordie.

re: Provisional Ball
user395009
Reply : Sat 8th Sep 2012 09:51

When you say if you find the ball you must play it no matter what the lie is, do you really mean you have to actually play it or can you invoke the unplayable rule at that point?

re: Provisional Ball
user355541
Reply : Sat 8th Sep 2012 11:39

The player may deem his ball unplayable at any place on the course, except when the ball is in a water hazard. The player is the sole judge as to whether his ball is unplayable.

re: Provisional Ball
user451055
Reply : Mon 10th Sep 2012 10:32

If you play a provisional which lands short of your original shot, you then play a second with your provisional and it goes in the hole (on a par 5) for a gross 4 birdie, can you not then declare your first ball lost without bothering to look for it?

I thought it was up to the player to decide if a ball is lost and this can be done at any time?

re: Provisional Ball
user355541
Reply : Mon 10th Sep 2012 11:01

Judy

You cannot declare a ball lost (you can, however, not declare a second ball a provisional so it becomes the ball in play). In the situation you described, the race is on. You need to get to the green as quickly as possible and get the ball out of the hole as it then becomes the ball in play. If, however, one of your fellow-competitors finds your original ball within the allowed 5-minute search period and before you get your ball out of the hole - tough luck. You have to go back, identify it and play it.

re: Provisional Ball
user8 [FORUM MODERATOR]
Reply : Thu 4th Apr 2013 19:16
re: Provisional Ball
user355541
Reply : Sun 8th Sep 2013 08:27

Once you have gone forward from where you played to look for your ball, you cannot return and play a provisional - any ball played then will be the ball in play.

re: Provisional Ball
user33026 [FORUM MODERATOR]
Reply : Sun 8th Sep 2013 23:02

Patrick,

It's nothing to do with passing the ball. The rule is once you have moved forward you cannot go back. Your provisional must be played before leaving the position you played the shot from

re: Provisional Ball
user33026 [FORUM MODERATOR]
Reply : Sun 8th Sep 2013 23:46

Rule 27 - Ball Lost or Out of Bounds; Provisional Ball

27-2 Provisional Ball

a. Procedure

If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball.

If he fails to do so and plays another ball, that ball is not a provisional ball and becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1); the original ball is lost.

re: Provisional Ball
user8399
Reply : Mon 9th Sep 2013 10:32

Didn't realise this thread was still alive - very interesting!

You can look up rules on the R&A website (google "r&a rules"), and read the many "decisions on the rules" alongside.

Examples are "what constitutes going forward to search for a ball". Answer leaves it somewhat to the committee's discretion, but implies that if you put your club away and take one step forward you can no longer change your mind and return to the tee to play a provisional ball. However, if you have moved forward to your bag, get a new ball or tee or a different club, you can. I don't imagine it can be enforced as strictly for your partner in a fourball better-ball competition - if he has already played and simply starts forward as you are the last to play I believe you can recall him immediately as you wish to play another ball as a provisional, but not if he is some distance down the fairway.

The other point raised earlier was "what if your provisional ends up near or in the hole?". The decisions explain what should happen in each case. Simply put, if you play your next stroke with the provisional ball before your ball is found (presumably by your opponent or fellow competitor within five minutes) or pick the ball out of the hole if the ball went straight in it becomes the ball in play and the original is lost. In match play, if you have played out of order your opponent can recall the stroke, however, and if the ball is found it is the ball in play. In stroke play, if you played out of order with the intention of avoiding this ruling you might be disqualified, if your fellow competitor reported the incident.

There are several other decisions regarding water hazards and whether you are allowed to hit a provisional ball if your original ball may be lost in one.

re: Provisional Ball
user202037 [FORUM MODERATOR]
Reply : Mon 9th Sep 2013 16:46

As an addition to Terry's good answer and to clear some of the grey area. A Player states that he wants to play a PB but needs to go to his bag to fetch another club\tee\ball is usually OK. It is how a PB is declared that some people are very strict about. To most Golfers, a bad shot followed by "I'll just hit another" means a PB, but within the Rules it is not OK. I have seen many arguments about the wording of declaring a PB.


Last edit : Mon 9th Sep 2013 16:47
re: Provisional Ball
user8399
Reply : Mon 9th Sep 2013 19:48

One of my golfing group tends to say "I'll hit another" and one of our regular playing group always aska "Provisional?". This always elicits the downbeat reply "(yes).. provisional", and leaves the impression that the golfer would have liked to make his decision later when he compares the two balls he has played!

So, don't be shy when another player reloads - ask him! Saves you having to tell him he's taken three off the tee when he finds his first ball in a better position.

re: Provisional Ball
user446732
Reply : Tue 10th Sep 2013 18:55

A point to note. If you make a stroke with your provisional from the place (or nearer the hole than) where your original is likely to be, it means exactly what it says. If you happen to find your original further up the course, the original is still lost. The provisional became and remains the ball in play.

re: Provisional Ball
user202037 [FORUM MODERATOR]
Reply : Wed 11th Sep 2013 12:33

D H

I removed the duplicate reply.

I can't understand your wording, in saying:- If you happen to find your original further up the course, the original is still lost.

Are you suggesting that 'likely to be' and 'actual' are the same under this rule?

Here is a Decision that shows that 'likely' and 'actual' are different in Rule 27-2.

27-2b/4 Provisional Ball Played from Beyond Where Original Ball Likely to Be But Not Beyond Where Original Ball Found

Q. A player, believing his tee shot might be lost or in a road defined as out of bounds, played a provisional ball. He searched for his original ball but did not find it. He went forward and played his provisional ball. Then he went farther forward and found his original ball in bounds. The original ball must have bounced down the road and then come back into bounds, because it was found much farther from the tee than anticipated. Was the original ball still the ball in play?

A. No. The player played a stroke with the provisional ball from a point nearer the hole than the place where the original ball was likely to be. When he did so, the provisional ball became the ball in play and the original ball was lost (Rule 27-2b). The place where the original ball in fact lay was irrelevant.


Last edit : Wed 11th Sep 2013 12:42
re: Provisional Ball
user446732
Reply : Wed 11th Sep 2013 19:35

David

That is exactly the point I was trying to make without having to post the decision. I'm not sure how my post can be read differently. I only used the words 'likely to be'. No mention of 'actually'.

Once the provisional has been played from a point at or past where the original was likely to be, the provisional is the ball in play, regardless of where the original actually is.

PS. I didn't realise I had duplicated my post. Thanks for removing it.

re: Provisional Ball
user202037 [FORUM MODERATOR]
Reply : Wed 11th Sep 2013 20:17

The main point here is the usage of "the likely position in the Rule. Who judges that?

If I hit a ball towards a road (as in the Decision) I would always have in mind that the ball could have bounced on that road.

Also being a decent player and if I hit a PB well enough, I would use the length of that PB to start looking for my original.

In answering the way I do, I always leave things open for a discussion to grow. I find that many people benefit from reading discussions like this because they become more aware of the Rules.

re: Provisional Ball
user8399
Reply : Wed 11th Sep 2013 20:47

Of course, having conducted a thorough search (albeit in the wrong area) for his original ball, then walked forward to his provisional ball and played it, the chances of less than five minutes having elapsed since he started the search for the original ball when he finds it are slim to none, so that ball is probably lost under the rules anyway.

re: Provisional Ball
user446732
Reply : Wed 11th Sep 2013 23:14

The player 'judges' it when he searches. Why would he look anywhere other than where the ball is likely to be?


Last edit : Wed 11th Sep 2013 23:17
re: Provisional Ball
user338942
Reply : Thu 12th Sep 2013 22:21

Would by the point of stopping the search for the ball would it not be declared lost? ....and to play your provisional for a 2nd time, would that not take you beyond the 5 minutes search for the original ball?

Just asking, I dont know what those factors would mean in this situation.

re: Provisional Ball
user446732
Reply : Fri 13th Sep 2013 09:04

Dave I'm not entirely clear on your scenario.

If the provisional is short of where the original is likely to be, the player will not have started his search so the clock will not be ticking. When he reaches the area and starts to look, the clock will start ticking and nothing can stop it. Assuming he played his provisional when he got to it, the original is not yet lost. If he continues past that likely place without searching and goes forward and plays the provisional again, the original is then lost. He cannot 'declare' it lost as he walks past the likely position of the original and decides not to search.

A ball cannot be declared lost. It becomes lost when those actions in the definition of Lost Ball occur.

Lost Ball A ball is deemed “lost” if: a. It is not found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player’s side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it; or b. The player has made a stroke at a provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place (see Rule 27-2b); or c. The player has put another ball into play under penalty of stroke and distance under Rule 26-1a, 27-1 or 28a; or d. The player has put another ball into play because it is known or virtually certain that the ball, which has not been found, has been moved by an outside agency (see Rule 18-1), is in an obstruction (see Rule 24-3), is in an abnormal ground condition (see Rule 25-1c) or is in a water hazard (see Rule 26-1b or c); or e. The player has made a stroke at a substituted ball.


Last edit : Fri 13th Sep 2013 09:06
re: Provisional Ball
user202037 [FORUM MODERATOR]
Reply : Wed 13th Nov 2013 21:19

Good question Ronnie.

The answer is in Rule 27-2b with the wording "...or from a point nearer the hole........."

And I believe the definition of "going forward" is leaving the location in order to search/play your ball. If you have left your bag 50yds up the fairway and don't have another ball in your pocket, you can call a PB, then go fetch another ball.


Last edit : Wed 13th Nov 2013 21:24
re: Provisional Ball
user21179
Reply : Tue 19th Nov 2013 18:13

"Revised decision 27-2a/1.5 allows a player to go forward up to approximately 50 yards without forfeiting his or her right to go back and play a provisional ball "

re: Provisional Ball
user446732
Reply : Tue 19th Nov 2013 18:56

The decision in full.

A player will be considered to have gone forward to search when he has proceeded more than a short distance towards the place where his original ball is likely to be. As the purpose of Rule 27-2a is to save time, the player is permitted to go forward a short distance before determining that it would save time to return promptly to play a provisional ball. As a guideline, a player should be considered to have proceeded more than a short distance, and therefore to have gone forward to search, if he has proceeded more than approximately 50 yards. However, this guideline does not preclude a player from playing a provisional ball when he has proceeded more than a short distance for another specific purpose, such as to retrieve a ball or a different club to play a provisional ball, or to confer with a referee. (Revised)

re: Provisional Ball
user8 [FORUM MODERATOR]
Reply : Wed 20th Nov 2013 14:11

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